Car insurance 2017: 237% increase in annual premium

Billy86

Glenster wrote: »

Will do.

I think it dramatically falls if you don't have accidents or points.

There's a lot more that goes into it that just that to be fair (and typically up to 4 points makes very little, if any difference).

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

I think that is a teeny weeny bit of an exaggeration. Insurers have the price they would like to get for a target risk. They will have a margin of wriggle room rather than lose a risk. For the less attractive risk, there is less discount available. Everything is negotiable

Have you never gone in to an electrical shop and asked for a discount off the sticker price on a TV or washing machine?

If anything is an under exaggeration. When you buy a washing machine it doesn't vary by 400% in the time you pick one and walk to the till. Or by hundred of euro simply by walking to the shop next door.

The problem is there no consistency to it. It just varies enormously when all all the "variables" are the same. The insurance companies could teach hardly normal about margins.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote: »

The problem is there no consistency to it. It just varies enormously when all all the "variables" are the same. The insurance companies could teach hardly normal about margins.

That's the issue, the variables are not the same between insurers. Some companies might have a large numbers of Risk Profile X on their books and, at the end of the year realise that the losses suffered far outweighed the premiums taken in. They will then increase the premiums to either cover the loss or deter those policyholders from staying with them

Another insurer, with the same risk profile on their books, may have had a good year with less expensive claims and may even reduce their premiums to take more of what is perceived to be good business. Therefore, the premium gap offered between companies widens and looks skewed to customers.

People often post here that insurers premiums vary hugely between insurers and then call for uniformity between them all. These are independent businesses, with different claims experiences and claims determine premium.

AudreyHepburn

Rod Munch wrote: »

I predicted a couple of years ago that Blue insurance would not be able to sustain their 2 year gimmick pricing and it would seem I was correct.

I predicted about 7 years ago that the premiums 123.ie were offering were wholly unsustainable and I was 100% correct in that.

Since then we have had Setanta and Enterprise go bust, both of them were offering premiums between €300 and €400 per year.

So to those that are laying the blame for increases solely at insurers doors, if companies that were offering cheap insurance went bankrupt, and companies like 123 needed €200,000,000 from RSA to stop them going under, why in gods name do you think insurance could be kept cheap?

It is a clear as day that it is massively expensive to run.

If insurers are creaming it profit wise then why oh why aren't European insurance companies tripping over themselves to set up shop here?

Because the market is a basket case currently where fraudulent claims are the order of the day.

Now just so I'm clear, when I talk about fraudulent claims I'm not on about minorities engineering crashes, its the every day Joe, exaggerating their injuries, claiming soft tissue damage for low impact accidents, banging their knees on table legs, all the while aided and abetted by a greedy legal system that thrives and profits on bigger claims payments.

Insurance companies are businesses and any business has to make a profit or at least break even to remain viable.

Up to 2015 insurers were making an underwriting loss ie what they were paying out was more than what they were taking in, AFAIK the central bank report for 2016 has yet to be finalised.

As for people saying they haven't had a claim so shouldn't pay more, insurance is pooled risk so the claims of the few are paid by the premiums of the many. Ye all benefited when the premiums were low so you have to take the rough with the smooth.

I'm confident that we have reached the peak of the cycle and that premiums for most will remain relatively static over the next 12 months.

Well said Rod. You put it much better than I was planning to.

There is no getting away from the fact that a lot of people were seriously undercharged for Insurance - I mean €280 or €375 for a year's Full Comprehensive insurance is far too low as any logically thinking person would know.

It's just not sustainable nor are you getting the value for money you think you are.

And can we please stop pretending that claims don't affect prices - the dogs on the street know this is untrue. I don't understand how that report could have found otherwise to be honest.

If you make a claim you are a higher risk whether you like it or not and you will rightly be loaded.

Insurance companies are not Ireland's answer to the Mafia, they are simply businesses and like any business they need to make money to stay afloat.

As long as people keep trying to cheat them to bring their premiums down and making grossly exaggerated claims for every little thing the Insurers will keep penalizing us all.

AudreyHepburn

beauf wrote: »

If anything is an under exaggeration. When you buy a washing machine it doesn't vary by 400% in the time you pick one and walk to the till. Or by hundred of euro simply by walking to the shop next door.

The problem is there no consistency to it. It just varies enormously when all all the "variables" are the same. The insurance companies could teach hardly normal about margins.

There can't be consistency, that's not how it works in any business. There has to be competition.

Each Insurer is perfectly entitled to seek out specific risks and charge accordingly. How else are they to stay afloat?

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

That's the issue, the variables are not the same between insurers. ....

The point I'm making is it varies enormously with the same insurer. Hence getting a different price from the same barman every 5 mins.

beauf

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There can't be consistency, that's not how it works in any business. There has to be competition....

Competition usually forces business to charge similar prices or have some other value added. Prices varying with the same business, or between different business usually means a lack of competition.

Isn't that the reason they gave for the low premiums of previous years, insurers under cutting each other.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote:

The point I'm making is it varies enormously with the same insurer. Hence getting a different price from the same barman every 5 mins.

It varies with the same insurer, through different distribution channels for many reasons. The cover is never exactly the same, brokers will promise varying levels of business role the insurer and they all provide different levels of administration to take away from the insurer

cantdecide

Beyondgone wrote: »

Try being 18 and starting out in life. They'll want a bit more than €770 a year off you. You can probably add close to a zero.

Then you have to try buy a home too.. which because the State deems themselves the arbiter of who can build what, when, will also rob you blind.

I'd hate to be young these days.

Back in 2000 I was 18 and started off in a 1.4 FIAT Tipo. That was the last golden age of artificial inflation of insurance premium. I made the mistake of running what I paid for my first insurance through a reverse inflation calculator and it came back as €7,500 in today's value. That's the thing about numbers, if you sweet talk them, they'll lie for you.

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

It varies with the same insurer, through different distribution channels for many reasons. The cover is never exactly the same, brokers will promise varying levels of business role the insurer and they all provide different levels of administration to take away from the insurer

It varies going through the insurer directly. No brokers involved at all.

It's an old trick to ring back under different names and using different numbers with the same details to get the lowest quote.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote:

It's an old trick to ring back under different names and using different numbers with the same details to get the lowest quote.

You're persisting with this, so I'll tell you where the issue lies, it's the information that you give them. Insurers load the data in to a programme and it spits out a figure. The slightest deviance will produce a different figure. You don't seriously think the handler just picks a figure out of his hoop? Rates can change daily, just like your butcher shop, but if you experience it a few times a day, the criteria cannot be the same.

To recap, it's you that is the reason for the different quotes

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You're persisting with this, so I'll tell you where the issue lies, it's the information that you give them. Insurers load the data in to a programme and it spits out a figure....

Yet they will sometimes match a competitor...you'd said they have wriggle room. So its not simply a figure that a computer spits out. I would assume they have a loading for people who don't haggle, and a discount for new business. Sometimes they will have a brain fart to not want certain people. If they can't find something about you to load the quote, they can just say its load balancing across the business.

In my opinion one of the reasons its going up now is they stopped fighting obvious frauds, and settling instead. Which may have been cheaper in the short term but in the longer term has spawned a claim culture that's come back to bite them. Many of the people doing these frauds, or people associated with them have a long history of insurance claims. Another reason is the shortfall in motor insurers’ investment income. They need to make up this shortfall by increasing premiums.

Billy86

beauf wrote: »

Yet they will sometimes match a competitor...you'd said they have wriggle room. So its not simply a figure that a computer spits out. I would assume they have a loading for people who don't haggle, and a discount for new business. Sometimes they will have a brain fart to not want certain people. If they can't find something about you to load the quote, they can just say its load balancing across the business.

In my opinion one of the reasons its going up now is they stopped fighting obvious frauds, and settling instead. Which may have been cheaper in the short term but in the longer term has spawned a claim culture that's come back to bite them. Many of the people doing these frauds, or people associated with them have a long history of insurance claims. Another reason is the shortfall in motor insurers’ investment income. They need to make up this shortfall by increasing premiums.

Not really in my experience working in insurance, to be honest. Wriggle room might amount to about €20-30 fees, that's more or less it. Anything beyond that is someone putting in your details dodgy more often than not:

- You got your full licence in January 2013, oh sure I'll just pretend I heard that as five years then.
- I'll give you a €850 excess but keep quiet about it.
- I'll just go ahead an assume your car is the non-GTi model despite you telling me it is.
- You keep/use your car in Dublin 22/24? Well sure isn't that in County Dublin? County Dublin is your main area of use/where the car is kept, so!
- etc, etc

These might seem great... until it comes time to claim. Or worse again, if someone claims against you.

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

SeanW wrote: »

OP: the problem isn't evil greedy corporations, its costs. When each accident costs so much in preemptive payouts, legal fees and, mandated payouts etc. then that HAS to be reflected in costs eventually, because no business can spend more than it earns indefinitely.

Two things need to happen:

1. The cost of litigation needs to fall. Action should be taken on the "sheltered sectors" of the economy, and law is at the top of the list.
2. The standard of responsibility on drivers needs to be tightened. We have, by jurist precedent, concepts such as "strict liability" (whereby if a motorist is involved in an accident with a cyclist or pedestrian, the motorist is deemed "at fault" regardless of the circumstances) and also the "deep pockets principle" which states that the party with the greatest means should be held liable, where judges perceive the insurance policy to be a massive pot they can raid. Both of these ideas need to be consigned to the dustbin of history.

3. Insurance companies need to stop paying for injury claims and insure solely on the cost of replacing the car and the risk of the driver and various other criteria.

beauf

Billy86 wrote: »

Not really in my experience working in insurance, to be honest. Wriggle room might amount to about €20-30 fees, that's more or less it. Anything beyond that is someone putting in your details dodgy more often than not:

-.....

These might seem great... until it comes time to claim. Or worse again, if someone claims against you.

That's a lovely story. I'm sure that does happen.

But Most of us aren't trying to commit fraud though, and are driving some under powered insurance friendly bland mobile.

However the fact remains the insurance quotes vary enormously for no obvious reason. I've been driving a long time and it's always been like that here in Ireland. Like for decades. I can remember it being discussed with gaybo on the late late.

sydthebeat

Insurance

One of the few business's in the works that you cannot make a loss in.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote:

One of the few business's in the works that you cannot make a loss in.

Strangely, brokers do go bust from time to time

Sue Pa Key Pa

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Strangely, brokers do go bust from time to time

Insurers go bust or withdraw from the market. Brokers are service providers and don't carry the risk

Wanderer78

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote:

Insurers go bust or withdraw from the market. Brokers are service providers and don't carry the risk

I know of brokers that went bust, seems a risky industry

AudreyHepburn

beauf wrote: »

That's a lovely story. I'm sure that does happen.

But Most of us aren't trying to commit fraud though, and are driving some under powered insurance friendly bland mobile.

However the fact remains the insurance quotes vary enormously for no obvious reason. I've been driving a long time and it's always been like that here in Ireland. Like for decades. I can remember it being discussed with gaybo on the late late.

Beauf time and again on this thread you've been given reasons by those if us working in the industry.

The Insurers are not cowboys, they are the Mafia, they are simply a business like any other business.

Just as no two shops pull in the same type of customer, no two underwriters will take on exactly the same risks.

Being a risk based business they, by their nature, will charge you according to your risk and if your details present them with a higher risk they will, quite correctly, charge you a higher premium.

Insurer A may have experienced a high number of claims from a particular area, Insurer B from a particular vehicle, Insurer C from a particular age group so naturally and again correctly, their prices will vary.

AudreyHepburn

sydthebeat wrote: »

Insurance

One of the few business's in the works that you cannot make a loss in.

Tell that to Quinn, Setanta etc

beauf

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Tell that to Quinn, Setanta etc

What brought Quinn down wasn't car insurance. I like that you threw that in there.

beauf

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Beauf time and again on this thread you've been given reasons by those if us working in the industry.
...
Just as no two shops pull in the same type of customer, no two underwriters will take on exactly the same risks.

...

Time and Time again you reply with a scenario thats nothing to do with my examples.

Strawman much.

Insurance seems to lack consistency or transparency in Ireland. But not in the UK. There is no "good" reason for that.

AudreyHepburn

beauf wrote: »

Time and Time again you reply with a scenario thats nothing to do with my examples.

Strawman much.

Insurance seems to lack consistency or transparency in Ireland. But not in the UK. There is no "good" reason for that.

It might have done back during the boom but not any more.

We are so heavily regulated by the Central Bank that you can't even sneeze anymore without there being a full scale tribunal!

If you want to know why you got a particular price all you have to do ask and you will be told.

It's in no-one's interest to lie or withhold anything for customers.

beauf

I was told it's going up for everyone. But I know people including my oh where it didnt go up at all.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I know of brokers that went bust, seems a risky industry

Many brokers close up or sell to a competitor because the costs are very high, compared to the rewards. Average earnings per private car would be 5% and most clients badger any additional service charge they try and get. The licence for the quotation engines are hugely expensive and then there is the usual wages, light, heat costs etc. Professional Indemnity Insurance (compulsory for brokers) is one of the dearest you can get.

beauf

http://dailym.ai/2pyhyEa

Shop around seems to be the best advice

jacob2

was with kennco insurance they wanted 780 got for 500 with aviva it pays to shop around that wat i do every year dont grab the first quote

Sue Pa Key Pa

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You're persisting with this, so I'll tell you where the issue lies, it's the information that you give them. Insurers load the data in to a programme and it spits out a figure. The slightest deviance will produce a different figure. You don't seriously think the handler just picks a figure out of his hoop? Rates can change daily, just like your butcher shop, but if you experience it a few times a day, the criteria cannot be the same.

To recap, it's you that is the reason for the different quotes

How is it then that going through a broker can get a lower quote from an insurer even once the broker has taken their cut?

jester77

Damn insurances are gone up everywhere, this year was pretty brutal.
My health insurance went up over ?90 a month, just for me, kids also went up.

An entire industry of comedy at our expense. My car insurance is up in a few weeks so I've got quotes from Blue, AA, Aviva, Cornmarket, FBD, BofI, PostInsurance.ie (which was really just Aviva again), Quoteme.ie, Quotedevil (which was Zurich), Axa, Liberty and God knows what else (they're the ones I remember). The time alone that this takes only hardens my opposition to the way this industry is allowed by the Oireachtas to carry on its business in this state.

Here are the prices for Comprehensive NCB protected, or Step Back. With the exception of the last Cornmarket one, none of these quotes included full protection of the No Claims Bonus (that price was usually around €1000).

Quotedevil, which rang me as they don't have an online quote, started with a quote for 9 (as in €900) something or other. Of course, I switched off after the 9. The guy then said he could save me money by getting me another, cheaper option which started at 7 (as in €700) something or other. Spoiled for choice was I. Given that I've been paying €325 per year for each of the past two years for fully comprehensive NCB protected insurance with Blue, I declined this amazing deal. Quoteme started their offer with an 8 (as in €800), so again I declined it. Blue was €755, AXA was €641, Aviva was €669, Liberty was €815, AA was €761;

Bank of Ireland Car Insurance, which I had never heard of until somebody in this thread mentioned it, was relatively speaking competitive. €495 for Comprehensive without NCB Protection or Step Back; €544 with Step Back Protection. Cornmarket, surprisingly (surprisingly as they are generally robbing bastards living off grade A amadáin and óinseacha who think their union have got them a 'deal' and therefore never shop around), came in at €485 for fully comprehensive but my NCB is not protected; Step Back with Cornmarket was €540 and Full NCB Protection with Cornmarket was €590 (BofI Full NCB protection came in very similar to that). The €590 Cornmarket Full NCB protection is 82% more expensive than the €325 per annum Full NCB protection I got from Blue's 2-year policy (€650 upfront in 2015) in summer 2015. I wasn't expecting anything that cheap this year, but that was still a handy €650 for my last insurance company as I never cost them a cent.


So, it seems out of this oligopoly that is the insurance industry in Ireland, Cornmarket marginally beat Bank of Ireland on price. I've 20 years full licence driving experience without a single claim or accident, by the way (and the wife was also being put on the same policy).

Interestingly, as I had nothing to do on the evening that was in it, and all day to do it, I played around with the Bank of Ireland Car Insurance quote machine to see how amending variables would affect the price (I got about ten separate quotes via email by the end of it). I removed the Dr and put Mr and it was precisely the same price (I thought the Dr might give a bit more "responsible" cred with actuaries). I put 0, 3 and then 4 penalty points down and it didn't change the price at all (to my surprise). However, when I put 5 penalty points down, they said they couldn't accept my business.

I also got the same price when I changed my start date from today to 3/4 weeks in the future (again, I had read elsewhere that you get a better price a few weeks beforehand as the actuaries consider you to be less desperate/more able to shop around). I changed my profession several times, including to accountant which some online guides say is cheaper, and there was no change in price. It's really hard to see any pattern in these prices.

Lastly, as for the claims that insurance companies are losing money in Ireland, here's the reality:

1. Aviva Ireland's operating profits up 39% last year (March 2016)

Aviva Ireland said its operating profit rose by 39% at €85m for last year, up from €61.1m the previous year, and its best performance in five years.... Meanwhile the company's parent, the Aviva Group...operating profit of £2.7 billion came in above expectations of £2.49 billion from a forecast compiled by the insurer.

2. Net profit surges 12% at France's AXA insurance (Feb 2016)

France's biggest insurance group AXA - second in Europe only to German giant Allianz - said today its net profit surged 12% last year to €5.61 billion.... Net profit came in slightly ahead of analysts' average forecasts of €5.58 billion.

3. Lloyd’s reports £2.1bn profit for 2016 (March 2017)

And so on ad nauseam.

You can be absolutely sure of one thing, however: the next time these insurance companies that are making billions in profits in 2017 go belly-up - as they undoubtedly will (PMPA, Quinn, AIG, Lloyds...) - it will be our taxes that will have to bail them out once again. What an utterly amazing industry are the insurance companies/banks: they keep the enormous profits in the good times and we taxpayers take their losses in the bad times. Roll on the "free market"!

Wheeliebin30

Even though a full report which came out last month showed claims have nothing to do with the increases people still swallow that one?

Insurance companies really have people right where they want them.

donegaLroad

The government were right when they said they would put this country back on its feet.

Mantra

ED E wrote: »

First step: Lets lose this none of my business attitude. If you know somebody who claimed for a fender bender, rat the fecker out. Get pictures of them on golf course or horseriding or w/e.

Everyone is painting the picture of an uninsured driver hitting a road legal driver. That is painful but the fact of the matter is that the outrageous premiums will continue to drive people particularly youngsters out on to the road without cover. Hence exacerbating the problem. That's a fact. So let's get off the hunting out people and a little more focus on the root of the problem. The EU Commission are currently investigating possible cartel activities within the Irish Insurance Market. Does it really surprise anyone in this kip anymore?