DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

I guess there is plenty of time for this during the taper but while the subject has been brought up...

I read a lot about "paying later on for going out too fast" but i'm not really sure what this means for someone like me who is really is plucking numbers from the sky when setting a target time.

At the moment i'll be targeting somewhere in the range 4:15-4:30 (6:00-6:20min/km). So is the recommendation to do the first 7 miles (with the drags at the slower pace and then if i'm feeling good gradually pick up towards the faster 6:00min/km pace? And if i want to go with a pacer? Would the advice be to go with the 4:30 pacer for 7 miles and then if feeling good pull away slightly and if not feeling good stick with the group?

Great news about your leg. Enjoy your run this evening.

I'm planning on doing pretty much what you say at the end there and going out with the 4:30 pacer and hopefully doing a faster 2nd half. If I ran DCM at the pace I did my 20miles at I'd do it in 4:23 but I've put myself in wave four and assuming I can't move up I reckon I"ll just take it handy with the 4:30 pacer. I don't know the route as don't live in Dublin and terrified of burning out too quickly.

scotindublin

Great news Ariana!

ariana` wrote: »

Well i just had a physio appointment. No serious damage tg but lots of tightness in my right leg in particular - glutes, hamstring, quads, peroneals (these caused the shin pain). Lots of ouch moments but he gave both legs a good going over which they needed. No instructions not to run (he knew he'd be wasting his time ). I'm back to him the week after next.

So i'm good to go. Looking forward to running this evening now as i haven't run since Saturday

leesider77

Great news ariana and baby75 on the injury front.
Lazare - You've been very quiet so I assume you must be knee deep in nappies by now. Hope all is going well.
I'm sorry that I checked in here this afternoon - all this talk of hills is making me nervous. I think there should be a ban on such discussions ;)
I'm was planning on going out with the 2:10 pacers on Saturday which should be an easy pace for me (approx 6:20min per km). I did this for the FD10M after a week of travel and little sleep when I ran it easy. However, it seems like I have only one pace now after running slow runs the past while. I struggled with it last night in my 6 mile run. And add the infamous hills on top of this......and now I am reading here about more hills in the second half too......I may need to rethink things.

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

Great news about your leg. Enjoy your run this evening.

I'm planning on doing pretty much what you say at the end there and going out with the 4:30 pacer and hopefully doing a faster 2nd half. If I ran DCM at the pace I did my 20miles at I'd do it in 4:23 but I've put myself in wave four and assuming I can't move up I reckon I"ll just take it handy with the 4:30 pacer. I don't know the route as don't live in Dublin and terrified of burning out too quickly.

Kellygirl we may cross paths! I did my 20m in 4:28 pace but that was probably a bit fast for an LSR. I don't know the route either and like you i'm afraid of blowing up and not finishing, i'd rather be conservative with my time (even at 4:30 i worry I'm not being conservative enough - that last 10km and how the body will react is the big unknown).

hot buttered scones

On the phone so I can't go into too much detail. As has been said - go out too fast and you'll burn through your energy reserves too quickly and you'll increase your chances of hitting the wall.
With regards to hills/drags - your PMP sessions should give you an idea of the effort you should be running at. To maintain that effort uphill you will have to slow down a bit. In my experience - be cautious for the first 10, steady effort for the next 5. At 15 see how you feel and drive on if you can. Get over miles 20 - 22 and then push for home. This is marathon no 1. Enjoy it and don't fret too much about times.

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

Kellygirl we may cross paths! I did my 20m in 4:28 pace but that was probably a bit fast for an LSR. I don't know the route either and like you i'm afraid of blowing up and not finishing, i'd rather be conservative with my time (even at 4:30 i worry I'm not being conservative enough - that last 10km and how the body will react is the big unknown).

My LSRs are getting faster as they get longer for some reason. Just going with it. What wave are you starting off in?

Kellygirl

hot buttered scones wrote: »

On the phone so I can't go into too much detail. As has been said - go out too fast and you'll burn through your energy reserves too quickly and you'll increase your chances of hitting the wall.
With regards to hills/drags - your PMP sessions should give you an idea of the effort you should be running at. To maintain that effort uphill you will have to slow down a bit. In my experience - be cautious for the first 10, steady effort for the next 5. At 15 see how you feel and drive on if you can. Get over miles 20 - 22 and then push for home. This is marathon no 1. Enjoy it and don't fret too much about times.

Thanks for that. I hope I can stick to it. Just have to try not pull away from the pacers.

brownbinman

pain in my shins/calf seems to have cleared up. Strangely have tight hamstring but think it's more something I tweaked, not worried about that.

Should get out for light run tomorrow, probably a 5km or so. Just in time for wedding season, 2 in 3 weeks. Was also invited to another one Saturday the 28th October but have something on.

So happy it's started clearing up as was getting really worried. Hope I haven't lose too much as I've missed out on 2 LSRs, had plans for 30km this Thursday but doubt I'll do that, maybe the sunday after the wedding

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

My LSRs are getting faster as they get longer for some reason. Just going with it. What wave are you starting off in?

I'm in wave 3 which i think is 3:59-4:19. I was very optimistic before the training obviously :pac: I will start at the back of it or may even go into wave 4. I like the idea of using a pacer for the first 7 miles, i don't trust myself not to get carried away :rolleyes:

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

I'm in wave 3 which i think is 3:59-4:19. I was very optimistic before the training obviously :pac: I will start at the back of it or may even go into wave 4. I like the idea of using a pacer for the first 7 miles, i don't trust myself not to get carried away :rolleyes:

I'm going to have to work very hard not to get carried away!! I don't think I have ever stuck with pacers besides chasing one around park run and trying to keep up was my issue there as opposed trying to slow down. I'd be so tempted to go with 4:20 pacers if I could move up a wave but that's possibly pushing it. Looking at the waves last night I think wave 4 is 4:30+. I suppose my goal this time is to run the entire thing and there's more chance of me doing that if I start slowly. Also if the 4:30 pacers are at the start of the wave it might not be so tempting to pull away from them as opposed to being at the back of a wave???

Unthought Known

ariana` wrote: »

Well i just had a physio appointment. No serious damage tg but lots of tightness in my right leg in particular - glutes, hamstring, quads, peroneals (these caused the shin pain). Lots of ouch moments but he gave both legs a good going over which they needed. No instructions not to run (he knew he'd be wasting his time ). I'm back to him the week after next.

So i'm good to go. Looking forward to running this evening now as i haven't run since Saturday

Great stuff, glad to hear it was nothing serious.

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

I'm going to have to work very hard not to get carried away!! I don't think I have ever stuck with pacers besides chasing one around park run and trying to keep up was my issue there as opposed trying to slow down. I'd be so tempted to go with 4:20 pacers if I could move up a wave but that's possibly pushing it. Looking at the waves last night I think wave 4 is 4:30+. I suppose my goal this time is to run the entire thing and there's more chance of me doing that if I start slowly. Also if the 4:30 pacers are at the start of the wave it might not be so tempting to pull away from them as opposed to being at the back of a wave???

Is there a 4:20 pacer? I haven't a clue how it all works. I only ever attempted to run with a pacer once and i didn't last long. It was an 8km race and i went with the 45min pacer for about 1km, i ended up finishing 42:xx or something like that so it obviously wasn't the right pace for me.

Last year at a HM there was 2hr & 2:15 pacers, i knew i fell between them so i printed a pace band for 2:10 and finished in 2:09:xx using that but it meant i was constantly looking at my watch which was a pain but i did hold myself back in the early stage and it paid off at the end when the going got tough(er) i was able to maintain the target pace. My friend at the last minute jumped in with the 2hr pace group (he had planned to run with the 2:15 pace group), he ended up finishing 2:30 ish and was really p*ssed off with himself.

drkpower

leesider77 wrote: »

However, it seems like I have only one pace now after running slow runs the past while. .

SNAP!; that has been exactly my concern all along; that all of these slow runs had 'trained the fast out of me'. Earlier in the training when i was doing 4 and 5 and 6 miles at PMP, i couldn't help but think that while it was perfectly manageable over that short distance, i couldn't see myself maintaining it for 26 miles. It made my heart sink.

Partly for that reason (and partly by accident!) i ended up doing a half marathon in training last week at faster than my HM pace (obviously much faster than PMP). While i was feeling great, during almost every stride of every mile after about mile 7, i kept thinking 'oh sh!t, this is going to bite me soon'; 'im going to collapse after 10 miles and so on and so on'; but the strange thing is, I didn't. Instead, to my complete surprise, I felt nearly as strong at mile 12 and 13 as i did at mile 1 and 2 , and I ended up with a 10 mile and HM PB (with no water, no gels, no jelly babies and really no intention of doing that at all!).

This didn't compute at all. Before marathon training, i used to feel pretty crappy at the end of 10ks and parkruns; able to finish with a bit of a kick, but definitely feeling like i really left everything out on the road. When i was reflecting on that, what Wubble and AMK and others have been saying for weeks finally clicked with me (not that i didn't believe them but, ya know....). All those slow miles, the gradual increase in mileage, the banking of miles of muscle memory, is all to build the endurance. Endurance endurance endurance. We can all run fast (not that PMP is really fast at all). But what we are training for is to sustain it. The pace will follow. Everyone else probably realised all of that before now, but for me it was a moment of clarity!

So, what my experience has told me is forget about the pace; that will come. just concentrate on banking the miles. If you can sustain 9.00 pace (or whatever) for 20 miles, there is no reason why you cant sustain 08.20 for 26.2 miles.

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

Is there a 4:20 pacer? I haven't a clue how it all works. I only ever attempted to run with a pacer once and i didn't last long. It was an 8km race and i went with the 45min pacer for about 1km, i ended up finishing 42:xx or something like that so it obviously wasn't the right pace for me.

Last year at a HM there was 2hr & 2:15 pacers, i knew i fell between them so i printed a pace band for 2:10 and finished in 2:09:xx using that but it meant i was constantly looking at my watch which was a pain but i did hold myself back in the early stage and it paid off at the end when the going got tough(er) i was able to maintain the target pace. My friend at the last minute jumped in with the 2hr pace group (he had planned to run with the 2:15 pace group), he ended up finishing 2:30 ish and was really p*ssed off with himself.

I think there are pacers every 10 mins according to the website. The FAQ has all the info. I'd like to be able to ignore my watch in a way and it's nice being with a pacing group too. I started out with one in a cork and then got ahead. I had a pit stop half way and they caught up with me and I stayed with them then. The banter is great and the encouragement when needed too.

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think there are pacers every 10 mins according to the website. The FAQ has all the info. I'd like to be able to ignore my watch in a way and it's nice being with a pacing group too. I started out with one in a cork and then got ahead. I had a pit stop half way and they caught up with me and I stayed with them then. The banter is great and the encouragement when needed too.

I like the idea of joining a group KG. I'm doing it on my own (well aside from the other 18, 999 people that are doing it ). Are you doing it on your own? I definitely agree re ignoring the watch, let some other kind person(s) do the work/maths.

We will know better what shape we are in in another few weeks and i'm sure our mentors will offer advice closer to the time as well But at the moment it sounds like maybe the 4:20/4:30 group. To be honest i don't mind too much how long it takes me but i'd like to stay running and feel reasonably comfortable (if that's not too much too ask ).

scotindublin

Don't worry about losing pace; this is a common concern when marathon training.....you will all be surprised how your Pbs come down over the shorter distances once you are back to these before the end of the year.

There is a good selection of shorter stuff before Christmas.

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

I like the idea of joining a group KG. I'm doing it on my own (well aside from the other 18, 999 people that are doing it ). Are you doing it on your own? I definitely agree re ignoring the watch, let some other kind person(s) do the work/maths.

We will know better what shape we are in in another few weeks and i'm sure our mentors will offer advice closer to the time as well But at the moment it sounds like maybe the 4:20/4:30 group. To be honest i don't mind too much how long it takes me but i'd like to stay running and feel reasonably comfortable (if that's not too much too ask ).

I know others doing it but all at different paces so that's why I like the idea of joining a group too. I made my decision of which pacer group to join in cork the night before - came down to how I was feeling at the time. Whatever happens I will be conservative. Same as you - to stay running and comfortable is priority.

Younganne

Some great advice re pacing here in McMillian Webinar

https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillan-marathon-pacing-webinar/

Baby75

Ariana delighted to hear that all is good with your leg did you get out for a run I hope you enjoyed it

The Black Oil

Good to hear of the positive developments after the previous weeks of DNFs/nausea/low points. Well done on completing the 16/18/20 mile sessions and consulting physios, where necessary. Enjoy the half this Saturday, if you're doing it.

Marathon training is tiring. I almost put a carton of milk in the microwave tonight. Mind yourselves.

Damo 2k9

Really looking forward to Saturday. As long as it doesn't rain I'm happy, and no gale force winds. Would be great to put some faces to usernames, I'm going to be wearing my purple Team Temple Street T-shirt so if you see me definitely say hello.

muddypaws

Is anyone else doing the Clew Bay half on Saturday?

Battery Kinzie

I just realised the half is on Saturday. Always had in my head it was Sunday. Not sure if I'll be able to do it now, annoyingly.

Kellygirl

Younganne wrote: »

Some great advice re pacing here in McMillian Webinar

https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillan-marathon-pacing-webinar/

I only just got to watch this. It's really good and very interesting. I like his theory behind the negative splits.

leesider77

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Really looking forward to Saturday. As long as it doesn't rain I'm happy, and no gale force winds. Would be great to put some faces to usernames, I'm going to be wearing my purple Team Temple Street T-shirt so if you see me definitely say hello.

You reminded me to check the weather forecast. Sorry I did now. "Very windy with strong to gale force winds".
Hope they've gotten it wrong!

quickbeam

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but we'll see what our experts think...

My predicted HM time based on Fingal and FD times is about 2:40. I never even considered pacers, as they'd all be far too fast for me (officially pacers only up to 2 hours per the website). But now that Rockyman has mentioned pacers beyond that, I'm wondering if I should go with them? The last pacers, 2:30 seem rather temptingly close to my expected time anyway.

I think I am fitter than I was for Fingal and FD. To compare:
- I've dropped 11.4lbs since Fingal and 4.8lbs since FD.
- My Parkrun PB has decreased by 1:38 since Fingal and 0:54 since FD
- My maximum weekly mileage has increased by 20km since Fingal and by nearly 11km since FD.

Having said all that, a 2:30 time in the HM is a pace of 7:07 and the furthest I've run at that pace or less, is only 5 miles. But then, in training you're never going to push yourself as much as in a race.

So ... is it worth even trying to start out with the 2:30 pacers and seeing how I go? Or does that risk me being burned out too quickly and would I just be better off to forget about it and go at my own best pace?

Testosterscone

quickbeam wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but we'll see what our experts think...

My predicted HM time based on Fingal and FD times is about 2:40. I never even considered pacers, as they'd all be far too fast for me (officially pacers only up to 2 hours per the website). But now that Rockyman has mentioned pacers beyond that, I'm wondering if I should go with them? The last pacers, 2:30 seem rather temptingly close to my expected time anyway.

I think I am fitter than I was for Fingal and FD. To compare:
- I've dropped 11.4lbs since Fingal and 4.8lbs since FD.
- My Parkrun PB has decreased by 1:38 since Fingal and 0:54 since FD
- My maximum weekly mileage has increased by 20km since Fingal and by nearly 11km since FD.

Having said all that, a 2:30 time in the HM is a pace of 7:07 and the furthest I've run at that pace or less, is only 5 miles. But then, in training you're never going to push yourself as much as in a race.

So ... is it worth even trying to start out with the 2:30 pacers and seeing how I go? Or does that risk me being burned out too quickly and would I just be better off to forget about it and go at my own best pace?

Pacers usually have quite large groups especially further back in the field so you may find yourself able to sit at the back of that group without overlooking it.

Hold there till about 8-10 miles and see how you feel and you may be able to kick on.

Novice runners tend to see a big upswing in fitness uber short period of time so as long as you are not completely fooling yourself you may find yourself well able for it.

Kellygirl

quickbeam wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but we'll see what our experts think...

My predicted HM time based on Fingal and FD times is about 2:40. I never even considered pacers, as they'd all be far too fast for me (officially pacers only up to 2 hours per the website). But now that Rockyman has mentioned pacers beyond that, I'm wondering if I should go with them? The last pacers, 2:30 seem rather temptingly close to my expected time anyway.

I think I am fitter than I was for Fingal and FD. To compare:
- I've dropped 11.4lbs since Fingal and 4.8lbs since FD.
- My Parkrun PB has decreased by 1:38 since Fingal and 0:54 since FD
- My maximum weekly mileage has increased by 20km since Fingal and by nearly 11km since FD.

Having said all that, a 2:30 time in the HM is a pace of 7:07 and the furthest I've run at that pace or less, is only 5 miles. But then, in training you're never going to push yourself as much as in a race.

So ... is it worth even trying to start out with the 2:30 pacers and seeing how I go? Or does that risk me being burned out too quickly and would I just be better off to forget about it and go at my own best pace?

I'd say start out with them. You'll know fairly quickly how you are feeling and you can drop back if you feel you are pushing it. It's usually a couple of kms before the field starts to spread out anyway so no harm starting beside them and see how you go.

The Muppet

quickbeam wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but we'll see what our experts think...

My predicted HM time based on Fingal and FD times is about 2:40. I never even considered pacers, as they'd all be far too fast for me (officially pacers only up to 2 hours per the website). But now that Rockyman has mentioned pacers beyond that, I'm wondering if I should go with them? The last pacers, 2:30 seem rather temptingly close to my expected time anyway.

I think I am fitter than I was for Fingal and FD. To compare:
- I've dropped 11.4lbs since Fingal and 4.8lbs since FD.
- My Parkrun PB has decreased by 1:38 since Fingal and 0:54 since FD
- My maximum weekly mileage has increased by 20km since Fingal and by nearly 11km since FD.

Having said all that, a 2:30 time in the HM is a pace of 7:07 and the furthest I've run at that pace or less, is only 5 miles. But then, in training you're never going to push yourself as much as in a race.

So ... is it worth even trying to start out with the 2:30 pacers and seeing how I go? Or does that risk me being burned out too quickly and would I just be better off to forget about it and go at my own best pace?

Make sure you take the course profile into account when making your final decision on pacing strategy, the difference between 2.30 and 2 .40 is 45 seconds per mile. Only you know how you feel running at that pace.

Lazare

leesider77 wrote: »

Lazare - You've been very quiet so I assume you must be knee deep in nappies by now. Hope all is going well.

Thanks for asking. Everything going great on the bambino front, got them home yesterday, hectic day but it's great.

My training is going pretty well, got out for a 16 miler on Sat morn, and the boards session yesterday morning. Had to skip the gym on Mon as couldn't fit it in.

It's a pretty easy week in terms of volume from now until Sat which suits me perfectly but my main issue right now is my diet. I've been eating really poorly over the last few days, McDonald's, Pizza, Chinese and an Indian too. I normally eat really well but just couldn't find the time to cook. Between that and the stress levels up to 90 my gut is feeling it right now.

Hopefully good eating over the next few days will sort it.