DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

Baby75

quickbeam wrote: »

Can't stand the heat, but I do my runs very early morning before it gets too hot.

I agree, I prefer late in the evening or early morning it's terrible when your out and wishing it would rain

Newbie xx

quickbeam wrote: »

Can't stand the heat, but I do my runs very early morning before it gets too hot.

There's is no better way to start the day🖒

peterc14

Singer wrote: »

This thread has a lot of examples of comparing folks first marathon time to their most recent half-marathon time: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101255685&postcount=81

Thanks for that...interesting to see how the times compare.

quickbeam

Newbie xx wrote: »

There's is no better way to start the day🖒

Even at 6am this morning it was too hot Well, not "too" hot as I still ran, but I didn't enjoy it much. I'm such a wimp

Lazare

Did an LSR this morning finishing with a parkrun like you suggested Wubble, really really enjoyed it. Couldn't help putting the throttle down for the last k or so though, felt great.

Newbie xx

This week signed up to the group, definitely gave me focus and made me complete my runs .... no flaking out knowing I've got eecker and will be reporting the weeks runs

Sunday did 5 miles around 50 mins, wore watch.... not for pace for time, to turn at 25 mins, know the route so know how much I covered

Monday - rest day .
Tuesday - out the door @ 6:30 am-did 3miles again wore watch not for pace but for 15 mins out & turn again I know the route.
Went to spectate the Bob Heffernan 5k, wow did it give me the drive to get back .
Wednesday- my first run in the later afternoon, I've found since surgery I struggle with any other time, than early morning and have either been unable to complete them or come home in a foul mood. Delighted to report, I was able to complete and came home in a great mood. Wore watch and paced 5miles x 10 min miles
Thursday - 6:30 am did 4 miles @ 10 minute pace
Friday- rest day

Saturday - parkrun I ran it and definitely pushed -26:16


Decided to give parkrun a go to see where exactly I'm at and how far I can push myself as most of runs lately are 3-5 miles at 10 minute pace. It's where I'm comfortable, would just like to get some miles back in my legs and be ready to start training plan on 27.06.17 with a consistent base.

Parkrun is my base to maybe induce some speedwork.

So all in all a really good weeks running total distance covered 20 miles

Newbie xx

We don't have that complaint today .... too wet lol

El Caballo

ariana` wrote: »

Hi.

Did anybody saw the marathon plan in Sunday's Indo? It's a 23 week plan, starts this week :eek: but it includes a 21 mile (week 17) run and a 22-23 mile run (week 20). Just wondering what the thoughts are on a 22-23 mile run, the longest on the HH and boards plans is 20 i think

I would be of the opinion that anything over 20 is too long for anyone here. The benefits of a long run really start to slow down after you hit a certain point, the law of diminshing returns. While benefits do keep coming even at a slowed down rate, the risk factor starts to increase after a certain amount of running. Usually the tipping point is around 3 hours of running and aerobic benefits start slowing. Many of you will already be running over 3 hours on a 20 mile run, There does have to be a tradeoff in that having confidence at finishing the marathon expecially with novices who maybe nervous about it so 20 miles would be ok in my opinion but I really don't think anything more would be nessecary for anyone here right now. It may be something that will help down the road when you guys are experienced and fast enough to really get benefits from it. Training will be intense enough with a 20 miler for probably everyone here as that will already be a big step up in distance for everyone.

Just my 2c

Best of luck to all the novices btw and wubble too, no stress;)

The Black Oil

quickbeam wrote: »

Can't stand the heat, but I do my runs very early morning before it gets too hot.

I did 4.4 miles in Minori, Italy at 5:40am this morning. The sun was reflecting on the landscape behind me, a faint orange on the horizon up ahead. The sort of day you could tell was going to be pretty warm. It was a little windy as this is on the coast, but it was not chilly ~15C. It was great to be out that early (if a little knackering!), then shower, breakfast and fly home. Got a few runs in whilst I was away. Glad I took the runners with me. Will post more in my log, hope this might inspire some of the novices.

Spirogyra

I'm trying to figure out where to include a 4th day in my schedule. I normally do only 3, plus usually a 'fitness-bootcamp' style class. Maybe a gentle jog before the class ?

quickbeam

My goal for the week: to increase my runs to 8km.

Runs:
9.47km @ 7:11 pace (approx 8.4km of actual running)
I found this quite tough, but it was faster than the previous week's 7km, so figured I needed tos low it down

9.54km @ 7:27 pace (approx 8.4km of actual running)
So, I did slow down on my second attempt and found it much easier, even almost pleasant.

6.31km @ 7:19 pace (approx 5.3km of actual running)
Actually the toughest run of the week, though it was the shortest, but it was very, very hot (as I mentioned previously) even though I started it early in the morning so I found that a challenge.

5.69km @ 7:11 pace (all ran)
I ran to Parkrun as I was volunteering. I took a round about route to extend the run. It was my favourite run of the week. It was mild and a little drizzly, which was far more enjoyable than running in the heat. It was also my first experience of running on the streets and paths*, and having to negotiate traffic, etc - something I know I'll need to do once I start the LSRs in earnest for the marathon training. That I didn't get run over by a car doing so has boosted my confidence

I also did a bit of running while volunteering as it was no longer drizzling, but bucketing down and I felt it was a way to keep warm, so I sprinted around a few times as I marshalled. I then walked about 2.3km home taking the most direct route.

I also did a 6.33km leisurely walk during the week between my two 8km runs.

* question on running on paths. I believe that it's easier to run on tarmac than concrete, so firstly, can you confirm that this is true? Secondly, if it is true, is there some kind of running etiquette about using bicycle lanes for running, as they are made of tarmac whereas walking paths are made of concrete. Is it a big no-no to use the bicycle lanes? Thanks.

Next week, starting tomorrow, hoping to run 9km!

The Muppet

El Caballo wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that anything over 20 is too long for anyone here. The benefits of a long run really start to slow down after you hit a certain point, the law of diminshing returns. While benefits do keep coming even at a slowed down rate, the risk factor starts to increase after a certain amount of running. Usually the tipping point is around 3 hours of running and aerobic benefits start slowing. Many of you will already be running over 3 hours on a 20 mile run, There does have to be a tradeoff in that having confidence at finishing the marathon expecially with novices who maybe nervous about it so 20 miles would be ok in my opinion but I really don't think anything more would be nessecary for anyone here right now. It may be something that will help down the road when you guys are experienced and fast enough to really get benefits from it. Training will be intense enough with a 20 miler for probably everyone here as that will already be a big step up in distance for everyone.

Just my 2c

Best of luck to all the novices btw and wubble too, no stress;)

From my own personal experience I think thats great advice. I used Boards plan last year. the longest run was 20 miles, We did 2 of them.

On Marathon day up to 20 miles I told myself I'd ran this distance twice all ready in training, when I hit 20 mile mark I knew that the 6 miles/10k remaining were very much achievable.

Running a marathon can be just as challenging mentally as it is physically, Wubble Wubble will be covering this in the final week or so of your preparation giving you little tips to help cope with the mental side of things on the day.

Lazare

What are people's thoughts about running LSRs on an empty stomach?

I've been reading a lot lately about it. Basically to train the body to burn fat as a fuel source. Seemingly the reason most people hit the wall is because their body runs out of glycogen and is inefficient at switching to fat as a fuel source.

I know LSRs do train the body to do this anyway but surely running on empty would increase the efficacy.

I run early mornings pretty much exclusively so I'm doing it anyway but I was thinking of maybe fasting from 6 or 7pm the night before, probably on alternate LSRs.

A quote I read was 'Train on empty, race on full'

Open to be told it's not a good idea though too.

scotindublin

Great week quickbeam...it is good to get into the habit of getting out 4/5 days a week it also looks like you are pacing yourself well too.

With regards to running on tarmac this is slightly easier on the joints/muscles than the concrete. I used to also try and do some running on the grass if I was in the Phoenix Park etc. Some others may be better on advising on running in the cycle lanes as sometimes cyclists can get a bit annoyed when you do.

Craig

quickbeam wrote: »

* question on running on paths. I believe that it's easier to run on tarmac than concrete, so firstly, can you confirm that this is true? Secondly, if it is true, is there some kind of running etiquette about using bicycle lanes for running, as they are made of tarmac whereas walking paths are made of concrete. Is it a big no-no to use the bicycle lanes? Thanks.

Next week, starting tomorrow, hoping to run 9km!

Baby75

Lazare wrote: »

What are people's thoughts about running LSRs on an empty stomach?

I've been reading a lot lately about it. Basically to train the body to burn fat as a fuel source. Seemingly the reason most people hit the wall is because their body runs out of glycogen and is inefficient at switching to fat as a fuel source.

I know LSRs do train the body to do this anyway but surely running on empty would increase the efficacy.

I run early mornings pretty much exclusively so I'm doing it anyway but I was thinking of maybe fasting from 6 or 7pm the night before, probably on alternate LSRs.

A quote I read was 'Train on empty, race on full'

Open to be told it's not a good idea though too.

I would say if your heading out on a early morning LSR and know your going to out longer than and hour or 2 or more, it would not be a good idea to run on a empty stomach. reasons would be you risk blood sugars dropping making you feel lightheaded or weak so having a snack even before you head out will help you run better and longer burning more calories.
so yes it is true your body will burn fat in a fasted run, but burning body fat to fuel exercise does not necessarily mean that one will lose body fat overall.To lose body fat, you still need to have an overall calorie deficit by the end of the day. If exercising on an empty stomach just sets you up to eat more later in the day than you would have if you ate before running, then there is no benefit.

BrownEyes79

This week was my first week of proper training and it all went really well

Monday: T25 exercise video, 25mins of speed training

Tuesday: 3 miles easy run, pace 9.50/mile

Wednesday: 4 miles fast, pace 8.48/mile
I was planning to run 6 miles on Wednesday but I was really tied for time so I only got 4 miles done but it was the fastest 4 miles I've ever run so I was delighted with myself!

Thursday: 6 miles, pace 9.24/mile
My first run in my new marathon runners, Asics Kayano, it was like running on clouds!!

Friday: rest day

Saturday: 10 miles, pace 10.45/mile
This is the longest run I've done since the marathon last October! I was planning on doing 8 miles but I took it really slow and felt I had the energy to keep going.
I was dreading going out in the rain but once I was out I really enjoyed it!

I was feeling nervous about the official training plan and if I'd be ready for it but after this week I feel so much better about my fitness and am really looking forward to the end of June!

Battery Kinzie

Been thinking about which plan to do. I got the P&D book, but the plans in that seem a bit too much for a first timer like myself. So I had a look at the meno plan, and I'm interested in that. I like the flexibility of only 3 days being prescribed, and some of the sessions on Wednesday look very interesting. The long runs maybe go a bit long towards the end (2*22 milers), but I could just do a mile or two less for these if I'm finding them too tough.

Otherwise, I might stick with the boards plan, but I'd probably prefer more MP miles.

Lazare

Baby75 wrote: »

I would say if your heading out on a early morning LSR and know your going to out longer than and hour or 2 or more, it would not be a good idea to run on a empty stomach. reasons would be you risk blood sugars dropping making you feel lightheaded or weak so having a snack even before you head out will help you run better and longer burning more calories.
so yes it is true your body will burn fat in a fasted run, but burning body fat to fuel exercise does not necessarily mean that one will lose body fat overall.To lose body fat, you still need to have an overall calorie deficit by the end of the day. If exercising on an empty stomach just sets you up to eat more later in the day than you would have if you ate before running, then there is no benefit.

Oh I'm not trying to lose weight, or suggesting it as a means to lose weight. I think you misunderstood me.
The purpose is to train the body to use fat as a fuel source for when glycogen stores run out.

shortie_chik

Was up & out at 8am on Saturday morning to get my 9m LSR in. Home and stretched and into the shower by 10am and the whole weekend stretching ahead of me, felt great to have it out of the way rather than hanging over me until Sunday afternoon! Ran at my relaxed pace, about 11:30mins/mile. Sometimes I find the idea of doing a very long run (like 9m is starting to get quite long for me!) a bit daunting, so I divide it up. I think that I'm only going for an easy 4.5m run, and then I'm going to run home. :rolleyes:

It was raining, then drizzling, then dry, then bucketing down as I went around. I didn't mind so much as it kept me cool and kept any major thirst at bay! Also I feel pretty hardcore out running in the rain.
I passed so many other runners & every person I passed I felt like asking if they're training for the marathon too but I tried to be cool about it. :cool:

So this evening I paid my registration and now I'm 100% committed to this thing!
FYI, the lower registration rate of €70 runs out on Wednesday, it'll go up to €80 after that.

Next weekend gonna step back to 6m, gonna be a doddle!

quickbeam wrote: »

* question on running on paths. I believe that it's easier to run on tarmac than concrete, so firstly, can you confirm that this is true? Secondly, if it is true, is there some kind of running etiquette about using bicycle lanes for running, as they are made of tarmac whereas walking paths are made of concrete. Is it a big no-no to use the bicycle lanes? Thanks.

I've also heard that it's easier on your joints to run on a mixture of tarmac & grass / trails, rather than doing 100% of your training on concrete, although for grass / trails you really have to watch your step!
I'm a cyclist and as long as you keep to one side of the cycle lane & are aware of cyclists coming up behind you, keeping an ear out for any bells, I wouldn't have much of an issue with a runner on the cycle path. Asked my OH how he'd feel about it & he reckons the same.

Baby75

Lazare wrote: »

Oh I'm not trying to lose weight, or suggesting it as a means to lose weight. I think you misunderstood me.
The purpose is to train the body to use fat as a fuel source for when glycogen stores run out.

Sorry I did misunderstand either way I personally would eat before Long runs eating well in the hours leading up to and just before hand will be stored as glycogen in the liver ready for when we need it,eating will also increase blood sugars which spares your liver and muscle glycogen levels.our bodies will use our fat stores regardless if we are fasted or not before exercise, once we are exercising at moderate intensity for over 60 minutes we use our Aerobic energy system which uses Glycogen, glucose, fat as fuel. by not eating and if glycogen levels drop your body will use protein to raise blood sugars which means protein loses its primary function as building blocks for our muscles, which you do not want.

one good thing about training for a marathon the more exercise we do, the more glycogen we are able to store in our muscles.

Singer

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

I might stick with the boards plan, but I'd probably prefer more MP miles.

I think the boards plan would be a bit basic for you. Meno is definitely flexible and has plenty of quality and variety.

davedanon

Baby75 wrote: »

Sorry I did misunderstand either way I personally would eat before Long runs eating well in the hours leading up to and just before hand will be stored as glycogen in the liver ready for when we need it,eating will also increase blood sugars which spares your liver and muscle glycogen levels.our bodies will use our fat stores regardless if we are fasted or not before exercise, once we are exercising at moderate intensity for over 60 minutes we use our Aerobic energy system which uses Glycogen, glucose, fat as fuel. by not eating and if glycogen levels drop your body will use protein to raise blood sugars which means protein loses its primary function as building blocks for our muscles, which you do not want.

one good thing about training for a marathon the more exercise we do, the more glycogen we are able to store in our muscles.

You sound well-informed, and I'm not myself well-informed enough technically to quibble with specific details, but I am fairly sure that what you're saying here contradicts what is a fairly well-established orthodoxy, espoused by such as Pfitzinger & Douglas. 'Training on empty' is a familiar and well-tested approach, and the process is exactly as the previous poster describes - you hit the road first thing without breakfast for your long run, in order to train the body to get better at fat-burning. If you carb up with breakfast or gels, then the glycogen stores are always well topped up and your body never gets to experience what will happen anyway in a raced marathon - glycogen depletion and a marked drop-off in performance.

tipping

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Been thinking about which plan to do. I got the P&D book, but the plans in that seem a bit too much for a first timer like myself. So I had a look at the meno plan, and I'm interested in that. I like the flexibility of only 3 days being prescribed, and some of the sessions on Wednesday look very interesting. The long runs maybe go a bit long towards the end (2*22 milers), but I could just do a mile or two less for these if I'm finding them too tough.

Otherwise, I might stick with the boards plan, but I'd probably prefer more MP miles.

If it's of help I essentially followed P&D plan mileage but swapped the session (tempo/speed) out for longish easy runs most weeks. In hindsight it worked ok but I was a little conservative and probably should have run a few more sessions/races in the buildup. Did do the MP long run sessions though.
Also I was consistently running 40 mile weeks before I started so the mileage didn't really bother me at all as the 1st few weeks went back from what I was running.

ariana`

El Caballo wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that anything over 20 is too long for anyone here. The benefits of a long run really start to slow down after you hit a certain point, the law of diminshing returns.

The Muppet wrote: »

From my own personal experience I think thats great advice. I used Boards plan last year. the longest run was 20 miles, We did 2 of them.

On Marathon day up to 20 miles I told myself I'd ran this distance twice all ready in training, when I hit 20 mile mark I knew that the 6 miles/10k remaining were very much achievable.

Running a marathon can be just as challenging mentally as it is physically, Wubble Wubble will be covering this in the final week or so of your preparation giving you little tips to help cope with the mental side of things on the day.

Thank you both, i will stick with 20m max. Being a lone runner i'm really not sure how i will cope mentally with 20m never mind any longer

deisedude

Hi guys, started taking running seriously in the past year doing my first half marathon in Galway back at the start of October after initially starting running to do Hell and Back the year previous. After getting the running buzz now and I even joined my local club which has been a fantastic decision from a social point of view and in terms of improving as a runner.

Have mainly just raced 5K's and 10 milers the past 6 months

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?

HM - Oct '16: 1:52 (Should beat that at Cork this weekend)
10M - March '17: 77 mins
10K - Nov 16: 47:30
5k - May 17: 20:48


Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
At the moment i do 6 days a week. 3 days running and 3 days strength/HIIT workouts at home. Will swap a day of strength training for running. Would do a base run of generally 6 miles, interval workout and long run (8-13 miles)


What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

Will re-assess after Cork half this weekend. I'm thinking 4 hours is a realistic goal

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Willing to do 4 days running, still want to keep my 2 days of strength training


Why are you running this marathon?
I suppose for me the reason I run is moreso for the mental benefits than the physical. I lost my mother and sister in a car crash back in December 2015 and running has been a form of therapy for me ever since. My sister had a bucket list she wrote when she was a teenager and on it she wanted to run the mini marathon which I did along with a group of her friends last year. I think it would be pretty cool to go a step farther and run the full marathon in her honour too. I'm sure her and Mam would be proud of that

paddydriver

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Been thinking about which plan to do. I got the P&D book, but the plans in that seem a bit too much for a first timer like myself. So I had a look at the meno plan, and I'm interested in that. I like the flexibility of only 3 days being prescribed, and some of the sessions on Wednesday look very interesting. The long runs maybe go a bit long towards the end (2*22 milers), but I could just do a mile or two less for these if I'm finding them too tough.

Otherwise, I might stick with the boards plan, but I'd probably prefer more MP miles.

Aha.. now I know what the P&D bit is..:D I have the Advanced Marathoning book ordered on Amazon and never connected the 2. It's got good recommendations on taking marathon running up a notch. Usually I would just download and read but decided for this I wanted something I could properly flick through and read.

jameshayes

Are you running slow enough?

“Only within the past decade have scientists rigorously compared the effects of different ways of balancing the various training intensities on performance in real races by real runners. These studies have consistently found that runners of all ability levels improve the most when they do 80 percent of their training at low intensity and the remaining 20 percent at moderate to high intensity.”

http://www.active.com/running/articles/what-is-the-most-effective-workout-for-runners

smashiner

Whuuhooo.....I just realised that the 2017 DCM Novice Thread has started......fair play to ya Wubble Wubble

Defo going to follow this thread as you learn lots of stuff every year from veterans and first timers alike!

As a quick intro, I did the DCM in 2014 (absolute disaster BTW due to man flu, nearly didn't finish), had to do it again in 2015 to exorcise the demons of 2014 and that one went well....peace made with the DCM.

The DCM is like a wonderful wonderful free drug that everyone should take at least once in the their life and I would love to do it again this year if the injury niggles allow.
I will see how the next few weeks go and decide then...otherwise best of luck Novices it will be a blast :pac::D:D:D

sgal

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Been thinking about which plan to do. I got the P&D book, but the plans in that seem a bit too much for a first timer like myself. So I had a look at the meno plan, and I'm interested in that. I like the flexibility of only 3 days being prescribed, and some of the sessions on Wednesday look very interesting. The long runs maybe go a bit long towards the end (2*22 milers), but I could just do a mile or two less for these if I'm finding them too tough.

Otherwise, I might stick with the boards plan, but I'd probably prefer more MP miles.

Sorry to sound slow here but can you tell me what the p&d book is and what is the meno plan. Apologies if it's explained somewhere else in this thread but I haven't seen it.
Thanks

scotindublin

Any novices signed up for the Irish Runner 5 Mile?