DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

Battery Kinzie

sgal wrote: »

Sorry to sound slow here but can you tell me what the p&d book is and what is the meno plan. Apologies if it's explained somewhere else in this thread but I haven't seen it.
Thanks

Sorry, P&D is Pfitzinger and Douglas, coauthors of a book called Advanced Marathoning (among others) which has training plans in it with in depth explanations of the different type of runs in each plan. A bit of a Bible for some marathon runners.

Meno plan is a plan put together by a member of boards years ago. I'm on my phone at the moment so can't link the plan, but I will later if you're interested.

sgal

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Sorry, P&D is Pfitzinger and Douglas, coauthors of a book called Advanced Marathoning (among others) which has training plans in it with in depth explanations of the different type of runs in each plan. A bit of a Bible for some marathon runners.

Meno plan is a plan put together by a member of boards years ago. I'm on my phone at the moment so can't link the plan, but I will later if you're interested.

Thank you. Just googled p&d. Should've just did that 🀔 On first glance I think it's a bit advanced for me. I'll look into it more just out of interest though. If you have time I'd like to see the memo plan though. Thanks again for reply

The Black Oil

shortie_chik wrote: »

So this evening I paid my registration and now I'm 100% committed to this thing!
FYI, the lower registration rate of €70 runs out on Wednesday, it'll go up to €80 after that.

Nice one.

Battery Kinzie

sgal wrote: »

Thank you. Just googled p&d. Should've just did that 🀔 On first glance I think it's a bit advanced for me. I'll look into it more just out of interest though. If you have time I'd like to see the memo plan though. Thanks again for reply

No bother, here's the meno plan:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/edit

Battery Kinzie

scotindublin wrote: »

Any novices signed up for the Irish Runner 5 Mile?

Not signed up yet, but I'm thinking of it. I need a race soon.

Baby75

Lazare wrote: »

Oh I'm not trying to lose weight, or suggesting it as a means to lose weight. I think you misunderstood me.
The purpose is to train the body to use fat as a fuel source for when glycogen stores run out.

davedanon wrote: »

You sound well-informed, and I'm not myself well-informed enough technically to quibble with specific details, but I am fairly sure that what you're saying here contradicts what is a fairly well-established orthodoxy, espoused by such as Pfitzinger & Douglas. 'Training on empty' is a familiar and well-tested approach, and the process is exactly as the previous poster describes - you hit the road first thing without breakfast for your long run, in order to train the body to get better at fat-burning. If you carb up with breakfast or gels, then the glycogen stores are always well topped up and your body never gets to experience what will happen anyway in a raced marathon - glycogen depletion and a marked drop-off in performance.

I am still learning No it does not contradict at all I would say two different approaches, my point is that as you train for a marathon and increase your distance and most importantly slow down our bodies will use our fat stores as fuel and the LSR teaches it to do so, enabling us to run for longer distances and finish the marathon. so while yes we can do either before deciding which approach will work, bear in mind running on empty may have a catabolic effect and have a slower recovery post work out. I think it is important to look at diet over all and make sure your eating the correct calories, carbs, protein and fat for the level of exercise you are doing which will pay off in intensity, performance, endurance and recovery.

paddydriver

Don't forget price of DCM goes up after 31st May! 10,000 or so booked already so don't risk missing out. Some left it too late last year when it filled and were then sat hoping for more places to be released.

S.L.F.

Baby75 wrote: »

Lazare wrote: »

Oh I'm not trying to lose weight, or suggesting it as a means to lose weight. I think you misunderstood me.
The purpose is to train the body to use fat as a fuel source for when glycogen stores run out.

davedanon wrote: »

You sound well-informed, and I'm not myself well-informed enough technically to quibble with specific details, but I am fairly sure that what you're saying here contradicts what is a fairly well-established orthodoxy, espoused by such as Pfitzinger & Douglas. 'Training on empty' is a familiar and well-tested approach, and the process is exactly as the previous poster describes - you hit the road first thing without breakfast for your long run, in order to train the body to get better at fat-burning. If you carb up with breakfast or gels, then the glycogen stores are always well topped up and your body never gets to experience what will happen anyway in a raced marathon - glycogen depletion and a marked drop-off in performance.

I am still learning No it does not contradict at all I would say two different approaches, my point is that as you train for a marathon and increase your distance and most importantly slow down our bodies will use our fat stores as fuel and the LSR teaches it to do so, enabling us to run for longer distances and finish the marathon. so while yes we can do either before deciding which approach will work, bear in mind running on empty may have a catabolic effect and have a slower recovery post work out. I think it is important to look at diet over all and make sure your eating the correct calories, carbs, protein and fat for the level of exercise you are doing which will pay off in intensity, performance, endurance and recovery.

It sounds like the best approach for a novice. First and foremost you want to finish in a healthy state.
Watching your diet and eating sensibly at correct times sounds much wiser than trying to fast.

scotindublin

There won't be too many opportunities to have a real blow out when the training cycle starts properly so I would suggest going for it.

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Not signed up yet, but I'm thinking of it. I need a race soon.

Omeceron

A bit late with my weekly update! A good week. 5 runs again. Dropped the mid week runs back slightly and increased the long run to 9 miles.

Got out at 7:45 ish Saturday morning. A bit of drizzle but home before the downpour. A bit too fast at times again. Was trying a new start to my regular route and found I ran the first 2 miles too fast. I need to work on slowing down more.

Foam rolled after every run and its not as painful on the calves anymore.

I'm doing the Irish Runner 5 mile. Did it in 44:31 last year. Expect to PB at least.

scotindublin

The route for the Irish Runner 5 Mile has changed this year. Just the one uphill section coming out of the Furry Glen now as opposed to Military Road and the Lower Glen Road last year.

ariana`

Hi all. Sorry I haven't been posting much I did 4 runs last week, all easy except the race, i'm still in KMs but they were 5k (race), 6.5k, 12k & 6k. Total was 29.5km or 18m roughly. It seems so little compared to what we will be doing in a couple of months time, i really don't know how i'm going to fit it all in. I guess i better get the new season of House of Cards out of the way pronto

The 12k (7.5m) on Saturday morning was done in unrelenting heavy rain so that was good training for perseverance

I'm not doing the Irish Runner 5 m but i have a 10k lined up the same weekend.

Lazare

I was going to target a parkrun pb in the run up to the 26th but you guys have persuaded me to sign up for the Irish Runner 5.

Looking to beat my Raheny time.

sgal

Can I query something I've never quite grasped fully. I followed this forum last year and found it invaluable. I did finish the marathon and it was a brilliant experience. However I never fully understood the long slow run and easy pace theory. I understand the time on your legs building endurance and also injury prevention, but how does doing slower runs stop your default pace becoming the equivalent of a slow run? I have a 'natural' pace of around 9 min mile. I started last year following the the hh1 novice plan and slowed my times down as per all the info here. Based on an injury i had to change my plan to a three times a week run and some straight and conditioning. I ran my long run at 9 min miles and shorter runs around the same or a little bit faster. In the marathon itself I followed the 4.10 pacers so 9.30 min miles and did grand till around 22 miles and ran/walked the test of the way which was grand as I was thrilled to just be there. If I trained at a slower pace (injury aside) could I have lasted the pace longer? My 20mile lsr was 3h 5 mins so around 9 min mile or so. If at my level more than 3 hours is non beneficial, I think a previous post mentioned the law of diminishing returns, is there much benefit for me to slow way down. I'm worried that I'll end up running at the planned lsr speed and still struggling the last few miles i.e. where will the pace come from on the day to go quicker. Sorry for the long windedness of my query. I'm putting together my plan and not sure whether to stick to 9 min miles and replicate last year knowing it will get me through plodding along or slow it right down and expect to do better based on running slower in training. Help😣

Lazare

A question about the Wed sessions on the boards plan.

At what stage of the run is it optimal to do the hill sprints and strides?

scotindublin

I am of the view that strides should be done towards the end of an easy run but the more experienced runners will be able to confirm this....I think it helps to create the feeling of picking up pace at the end of a race. I tried to do mine on a nice flat area.

Hills can be tricky to set properly as you have to be careful on a number of factors gradient/length of hill and you have to be very careful with pace. I tended to do mine in the middle of easy runs when I could as I liked to have a good recovery afterwards.

Lazare

scotindublin wrote: »

I am of the view that strides should be done towards the end of an easy run but the more experienced runners will be able to confirm this....I think it helps to create the feeling of picking up pace at the end of a race. I tried to do mine on a nice flat area.

Hills can be tricky to set properly as you have to be careful on a number of factors gradient/length of hill and you have to be very careful with pace. I tended to do mine in the middle of easy runs when I could as I liked to have a good recovery afterwards.

That makes sense re strides.

There's a good hill near my house, 2.5k away so a nice recovery jog back but I've wondered if it's too long at 200m and maybe too steep. I've only used it twice for hill sprints but I couldn't manage more than three each time.

What is an optimal length and gradient?

scotindublin

For starters I would say 100m at what feels like hard pace would be more than enough; these shouldn't be full out sprints;take a full jog recovery between the reps. Try 5 and if you are only managing 3 then maybe the pace is too much.

I can't recall how many hill session were on the boards plan last year.....I liked to pick rolling hill routes for some mid week runs.

Lazare wrote: »

That makes sense re strides.

There's a good hill near my house, 2.5k away so a nice recovery jog back but I've wondered if it's too long at 200m and maybe too steep. I've only used it twice for hill sprints but I couldn't manage more than three each time.

What is an optimal length and gradient?

Halloween Jack

Hi guys, I've been quiet since my solitary post earlier in the thread. Have been ticking off short and slow runs, 4 a week and have been back in the gym this week after a few weeks off, doing a strength program I got from my physio. Trying to balance the gym, the runs and the appropriate rest will be tricky, but I have 4 weeks to work it out so I'm ready when the plan kicks in.

Hope everybody else is going well.

The Black Oil

@sgal

Someone else will probably have the more technically correct answer, I've a feeling your query was touched on in last year's thread too. I think it might come back to those three simple words - respect the distance. I do understand where you're coming from, though.

kin9pin

sgal wrote: »

Can I query something I've never quite grasped fully. I followed this forum last year and found it invaluable. I did finish the marathon and it was a brilliant experience. However I never fully understood the long slow run and easy pace theory. I understand the time on your legs building endurance and also injury prevention, but how does doing slower runs stop your default pace becoming the equivalent of a slow run? I have a 'natural' pace of around 9 min mile. I started last year following the the hh1 novice plan and slowed my times down as per all the info here. Based on an injury i had to change my plan to a three times a week run and some straight and conditioning. I ran my long run at 9 min miles and shorter runs around the same or a little bit faster. In the marathon itself I followed the 4.10 pacers so 9.30 min miles and did grand till around 22 miles and ran/walked the test of the way which was grand as I was thrilled to just be there. If I trained at a slower pace (injury aside) could I have lasted the pace longer? My 20mile lsr was 3h 5 mins so around 9 min mile or so. If at my level more than 3 hours is non beneficial, I think a previous post mentioned the law of diminishing returns, is there much benefit for me to slow way down. I'm worried that I'll end up running at the planned lsr speed and still struggling the last few miles i.e. where will the pace come from on the day to go quicker. Sorry for the long windedness of my query. I'm putting together my plan and not sure whether to stick to 9 min miles and replicate last year knowing it will get me through plodding along or slow it right down and expect to do better based on running slower in training. Help😣

This was linked last year, a nice guide about easy-day pace. Note that your long run is not considered an easy run. http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-easy-day-pace
Here's a link explaining the long run pace https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/the-marathon-long-run/

I would guess that your effort on the long runs was too high, you were running your LSR faster than your goal marathon pace.

sgal

kin9pin wrote: »

This was linked last year, a nice guide about easy-day pace. Note that your long run is not considered an easy run. http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-easy-day-pace
Here's a link explaining the long run pace https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/the-marathon-long-run/

I would guess that your effort on the long runs was too high, you were running your LSR faster than your goal marathon pace.

Thank you for that. The McMillan one is interesting. I don't know about the 30 to 90 minute fast finish!
My marathon pace was slower than my training
Running as when I signed up for the marathon I register in wave three, which was the over 4 hours one. I was too chicken to break the rules and go I to wave 2! I also thought if I run slower than I trained I'd have something left in the tank for the last 4 to 5 miles.
I'm going out in a minute for an 8 mile run and will run it slow. Thanks again

Wubble Wubble

Soon as me back's turned!! I go away for a few days, and there's an extra four pages worth of posts :eek:

Great work being done by so many of you, especially with the weather being so bad here over the weekend. If you can keep going through such conditions even at this early stage, you'll be able to think back to this if you're in trouble down the line.

Thanks to all the contributors! I've occasionally been throwing my eye over the content from afar, but I didn't have the laptop with me, and trying to reply on the phone tends to underline how clumsy I am in general.

I'll put up something a bit more detailed later in the week. Bye for now!

Wubble Wubble

deisedude wrote: »

Hi guys, started taking running seriously in the past year doing my first half marathon in Galway back at the start of October after initially starting running to do Hell and Back the year previous. After getting the running buzz now and I even joined my local club which has been a fantastic decision from a social point of view and in terms of improving as a runner.

Have mainly just raced 5K's and 10 milers the past 6 months

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?

HM - Oct '16: 1:52 (Should beat that at Cork this weekend)
10M - March '17: 77 mins
10K - Nov 16: 47:30
5k - May 17: 20:48


Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
At the moment i do 6 days a week. 3 days running and 3 days strength/HIIT workouts at home. Will swap a day of strength training for running. Would do a base run of generally 6 miles, interval workout and long run (8-13 miles)


What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

Will re-assess after Cork half this weekend. I'm thinking 4 hours is a realistic goal

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Willing to do 4 days running, still want to keep my 2 days of strength training


Why are you running this marathon?
I suppose for me the reason I run is moreso for the mental benefits than the physical. I lost my mother and sister in a car crash back in December 2015 and running has been a form of therapy for me ever since. My sister had a bucket list she wrote when she was a teenager and on it she wanted to run the mini marathon which I did along with a group of her friends last year. I think it would be pretty cool to go a step farther and run the full marathon in her honour too. I'm sure her and Mam would be proud of that

Welcome aboard deisedude! Your times from this year aren't far from mine. Anything comparable will be a massive half marathon PB in Cork. Based on which, sub 4 should be a realistic target. Any idea on which plan you want to follow?
+1 on joining a club, it's helped me out and a lot and no doubt will continue to do in the future. Certainly you should be very confident of acheiving something your mother and sister would be proud of. Thanks for signing up, best of luck!

Oldref

Hi everyone, fairly new to the running gig, mainly running 5K to 10 mile races. Just registered for Dublin today…..

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
HM – Running Waterford half in June, will update but hoping for sub 2 hours)
10M – April 17: 1:29 (training run)
10K – April 17: 52:41
5k - May 17: 23:21


Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Currently training 4 days a week. 3 days running (one long run 8-12 miles) and 1 day gym workout.


What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Will have a much better idea after the Waterford half at the end of the month - dream time 4.15, realistic goal 4.30 but would just like to finish it!!!

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Would like to stay with 3 days running and 1 day of strength training, going to follow the boards plan


Why are you running this marathon?
My better half is faithmc, who ran the DCM last year and was a poster on DCM 16 Novices thread. She ran for her Dad who was a keen runner and is currently unwell. It inspired me so much that I took up running, just as a hobby at first but never believed I would enjoy it as much as I do now!

ariana`

I'm just entering today :eek:

Wondering how do people decide which wave to go in? I'm thinking Wave 3 4:00-4:19. But maybe Wave 4 would be a better fit? I've no idea. My HM time is 2:09 which would give me a time of 4:38 (based on HM x 2 + 20 minutes) but it was last Oct and i ran it very conservatively as i was petrified of blowing up. I think i have a 2hr HM in me :cool:

But maybe come Oct I might be very happy to have the option of going with the 4:30 or even 4:40 pacers

RayCun

You can always move down to a slower wave, but moving up to a faster wave may not be possible

Sheep1978

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

Only raced some 5k parkruns. Pb of 20.40 back in Jan. Have done some Hell and back things, one was 20k, though I know they are completely different to straight runs.
Haven't done a 10k race but would think 50m would be achievable at this moment in time.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

No direct training for running but just finished the football season so have some fitness level though not great due to injuries the last few months

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

Dream: 3.40
realistic: 4.00 (I know I'll be angry with myself if I don't make this)

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

Will train 3/4/5 times a week. Was planning on the Hal higdon novice 2 but adjusted due to a holiday in august. Will have a good read of this thread and some other plans over the next week or two

Why are you running this marathon?
Was something I'd always said I wanted to do and things have fallen into place that I might have the time this year to train. Was also in at the event last year as a friend was running and the atmosphere was excellent.

ariana`

RayCun wrote: »

You can always move down to a slower wave, but moving up to a faster wave may not be possible

Wave 3 it is so thank you.

Can't believe i'm actually entering it's going to be official :eek:

ariana`

sgal wrote: »

Can I query something I've never quite grasped fully. I followed this forum last year and found it invaluable. I did finish the marathon and it was a brilliant experience. However I never fully understood the long slow run and easy pace theory. I understand the time on your legs building endurance and also injury prevention, but how does doing slower runs stop your default pace becoming the equivalent of a slow run? I have a 'natural' pace of around 9 min mile. I started last year following the the hh1 novice plan and slowed my times down as per all the info here. Based on an injury i had to change my plan to a three times a week run and some straight and conditioning. I ran my long run at 9 min miles and shorter runs around the same or a little bit faster. In the marathon itself I followed the 4.10 pacers so 9.30 min miles and did grand till around 22 miles and ran/walked the test of the way which was grand as I was thrilled to just be there. If I trained at a slower pace (injury aside) could I have lasted the pace longer? My 20mile lsr was 3h 5 mins so around 9 min mile or so. If at my level more than 3 hours is non beneficial, I think a previous post mentioned the law of diminishing returns, is there much benefit for me to slow way down. I'm worried that I'll end up running at the planned lsr speed and still struggling the last few miles i.e. where will the pace come from on the day to go quicker. Sorry for the long windedness of my query. I'm putting together my plan and not sure whether to stick to 9 min miles and replicate last year knowing it will get me through plodding along or slow it right down and expect to do better based on running slower in training. Help😣

sgal i'm completely confused by paces as well (i'm hoping to get more clarification here when the real training starts). I'm a lot less experienced than you but i do noticed some plans have a speedier run or an interval session thrown in mid-week so i'm guessing that is where the speed is supposed to come from? I don't think it's for me this year as i'm a complete novice but maybe a more intermediate plan might suit you. What time did you end up doing DCM 2016 in? I'm thinking around 9:30-10:00 pace for my LSRs, and maybe i'll end up following the 4:10 pacer as well or thereabouts but i'm sure it's far too soon to be thinking about that there's a lot of miles to be covered first :eek: