DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

skyblue46

Baby75 wrote: »

Could not agree more

I'm like a font of wisdom today!! I should have more days off!!

RolandDeschain

Bib No.| Username | Target Time | Actual Time
12345 | skyblue46 |  03:59:59 |
12346 | quickbeam |  05:59:59 |
12347 | candamir | 03:59:59 |
12348| kellygirl | 04:29:59 |
12349 | Damo 2k9 | 03:59:59 |
12350 | Positron | 04:29:59 |
12351| Lazare | 03:58:xx |
12352|Leesider|04:59:59|
12353 | clickerquicklic | 03:16:29 |
12354 | stampydmonkey | 03:56:xx |
12355 | RolandDeschain | 03:54:xx |


Goal A: Finish it without walking
Goal B: Sub 4
Goal C: Let's be a bit ambitious and say sub 3:55, possibly sub 3:50 if the calculators are to be believed (which they are not).

BrownEyes79

Would anybody mind adding me to the table please?
Goal time 4.20
Thank you

I’m flexible time wise on Saturday for meet up so whatever suits most! Also could we have coffee in the visitors centre instead of tea rooms? there’s toilets there + plenty of parking and closer to hole in wall carpark, plus it’s away from all the zoo traffic and more seating area too!

quickbeam

I don't have much race experience - just the three in the Race Series so far. But I have to say that for me running in races is far harder than running in training. My theories on why:

In training I get in a 'zone' and the kms can just drift by with me barely noticing. But in a race I'm always 'present' because there's so much going on and to take in. This means I feel every km and get tireder quicker.

Cheers from crowds are great and all, but I find it hard not to push myself that little bit harder than I should so as not to 'let them down'. In training I've no such pressure and can just stick to the pace I know I need to finish the distance.

I start my training runs from my front door, but there's always more energy required to make it to a race with walking to the start line and standing around taking up energy that'd not have been used in a training run.

Maybe none of that applies to the rest of you but that's my take on it.

quickbeam

BrownEyes79 wrote: »

Would anybody mind adding me to the table please?
Goal time 4.20
Thank you

I’m flexible time wise on Saturday for meet up so whatever suits most! Also could we have coffee in the visitors centre instead of tea rooms? there’s toilets there + plenty of parking and closer to hole in wall carpark, plus it’s away from all the zoo traffic and more seating area too!

Actually, I'd prefer there too.

RolandDeschain

Bib No.| ]Username | Target Time | Actual Time
12345 | skyblue46 |  03:59:59 |
12346 | quickbeam |  05:59:59 |
12347 | candamir | 03:59:59 |
12348| kellygirl | 04:29:59 |
12349 | Damo 2k9 | 03:59:59 |
12350 | Positron | 04:29:59 |
12351| Lazare | 03:58:xx |
12352|Leesider|04:59:59|
12353 | clickerquicklic | 03:16:29 |
12354 | stampydmonkey | 03:56:xx |
12355 | RolandDeschain | 03:54:xx |
12356 | BrownEyes79 | 04:20:xx |


Hope that's right!

quickbeam

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Goal A: Finish it without walking
Goal B: Sub 4
Goal C: Let's be a bit ambitious and say sub 3:55, possibly sub 3:50 if the calculators are to be believed (which they are not).

I think you've that backwards. A is meant to be the best case scenario goal. Then work down to next best case and last best case. At least that's my understanding from last year's thread.

BrownEyes79

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Bib No.| ]Username | Target Time | Actual Time
12345 | skyblue46 |  03:59:59 |
12346 | quickbeam |  05:59:59 |
12347 | candamir | 03:59:59 |
12348| kellygirl | 04:29:59 |
12349 | Damo 2k9 | 03:59:59 |
12350 | Positron | 04:29:59 |
12351| Lazare | 03:58:xx |
12352|Leesider|04:59:59|
12353 | clickerquicklic | 03:16:29 |
12354 | stampydmonkey | 03:56:xx |
12355 | RolandDeschain | 03:54:xx |
12356 | BrownEyes79 | 04:20:xx |


Hope that's right!

Thank you

skyblue46

BrownEyes79 wrote: »

Would anybody mind adding me to the table please?
Goal time 4.20
Thank you

I’m flexible time wise on Saturday for meet up so whatever suits most! Also could we have coffee in the visitors centre instead of tea rooms? there’s toilets there + plenty of parking and closer to hole in wall carpark, plus it’s away from all the zoo traffic and more seating area too!

That's 5 good reasons!! Not sure why I said the Tea Rooms...apart from the fact I have never been in the visitor centre or knew it existed.

clickerquicklic

skyblue46 wrote: »

What is it about the day? Why do people who have done a 1:45 half reach halfway in 1:59 and be in trouble by mile 15? This is my big worry. They had done good lsrs of 20 miles but had problems before that distance at paces not appreciably faster. Does nervous energy drain you?

Great question something I've wondered myself interested to hear what experienced posters reply to this , very few people seem to hit their targets and the targets are often softer than calculator estimates.

I have a suspicion people eat too much /drink too much / start too fast / think too much / get the start line too early and wait around too long.

I'm going to try mimic what I do on the runs I've felt best on , which will be leaving myself just enough time to get there and start straight into it. I won't be carb loading or drinking gallons of water or sports drinks. Do what has worked for you , if I ate the meal sizes I see people post the night before a marathon I wouldn't get close to my targets time!

I'd say the mental side of it is huge , the mind will stop you before your legs will . Every race I have ever done even parkrun or some training runs whenever you are close to the limit there is going to be a mental battle going on. Its about convincing yourself you've got to keep going when your mind is telling you to stop. I'm sure I will be having lots of conversations with myself the whole way around its why I don't want to have an A/B/C goal . For me I know there is going to be tough times and i'll revert to B or C goal too quickly, if that seed of doubt is there my mind will let that grow to the point i'll just keeping dropping back my goals. If I am at the starting line its A goal or bust no doubt I'm running 3.16.29 thats it , its justs a mind f*** if you start thinking I can slow down and 3 minutes and just do my B goal .

Thats my 2 cents probably not a recommended attitude for everyone!

RolandDeschain

quickbeam wrote: »

I think you've that backwards. A is meant to be the best case scenario goal. Then work down to next best case and last best case. At least that's my understanding from last year's thread.

Ha that would be me summed up pretty well....backwards!

BrownEyes79

skyblue46 wrote: »

That's 5 good reasons!! Not sure why I said the Tea Rooms...apart from the fact I have never been in the visitor centre or knew it existed.

It’s just down the side road off the roundabout at Phoenix monument

skyblue46

BrownEyes79 wrote: »

It’s just down the side road off the roundabout at Phoenix monument

Yeah I remember now...your pit stop! ;-)

quickbeam

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm sure I will be having lots of conversations with myself the whole way around its why I don't want to have an A/B/C goal . For me I know there is going to be tough times and i'll revert to B or C goal too quickly, if that seed of doubt is there my mind will let that grow to the point i'll just keeping dropping back my goals. If I am at the starting line its A goal or bust no doubt I'm running 3.16.29 thats it , its justs a mind f*** if you start thinking I can slow down and 3 minutes and just do my B goal .

Thats my 2 cents probably not a recommended attitude for everyone!

I'll just say that there were people on last year's thread who had the same thoughts and regretted not having a fall back target. Obviously your decision in the end though.

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Great question something I've wondered myself interested to hear what experienced posters reply to this , very few people seem to hit their targets and the targets are often softer than calculator estimates.

I have a suspicion people eat too much /drink too much / start too fast / think too much / get the start line too early and wait around too long.

I'm going to try mimic what I do on the runs I've felt best on , which will be leaving myself just enough time to get there and start straight into it. I won't be carb loading or drinking gallons of water or sports drinks. Do what has worked for you , if I ate the meal sizes I see people post the night before a marathon I wouldn't get close to my targets time!

I'd say the mental side of it is huge , the mind will stop you before your legs will . Every race I have ever done even parkrun or some training runs whenever you are close to the limit there is going to be a mental battle going on. Its about convincing yourself you've got to keep going when your mind is telling you to stop. I'm sure I will be having lots of conversations with myself the whole way around its why I don't want to have an A/B/C goal . For me I know there is going to be tough times and i'll revert to B or C goal too quickly, if that seed of doubt is there my mind will let that grow to the point i'll just keeping dropping back my goals. If I am at the starting line its A goal or bust no doubt I'm running 3.16.29 thats it , its justs a mind f*** if you start thinking I can slow down and 3 minutes and just do my B goal .

Thats my 2 cents probably not a recommended attitude for everyone!

I can't say much more than that I agree wholeheartedly re the pre race stuff.

statina

Bib No.| Username | Target Time | Actual Time | statina| 4:55:59|
[/quote]

skyblue46

statina wrote: »

Bib No.| Username | Target Time | Actual Time | statina| 4:55:59|

[/quote]

Oh jaysus. My table...gone....destroyed!

skyblue46

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Bib No.| ]Username | Target Time | Actual Time
12345 | skyblue46 |  03:59:59 |
12346 | quickbeam |  05:59:59 |
12347 | candamir | 03:59:59 |
12348| kellygirl | 04:29:59 |
12349 | Damo 2k9 | 03:59:59 |
12350 | Positron | 04:29:59 |
12351| Lazare | 03:58:xx |
12352|Leesider|04:59:59|
12353 | clickerquicklic | 03:16:29 |
12354 | stampydmonkey | 03:56:xx |
12355 | RolandDeschain | 03:54:xx |
12356 | BrownEyes79 | 04:20:xx |
12357 | Statina | 04:55:59 |


Hope that's right!

I really don't know what I'm doing. Hopefully this fixes it.

BrownEyes79

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Great question something I've wondered myself interested to hear what experienced posters reply to this , very few people seem to hit their targets and the targets are often softer than calculator estimates.

I have a suspicion people eat too much /drink too much / start too fast / think too much / get the start line too early and wait around too long.

I'm going to try mimic what I do on the runs I've felt best on , which will be leaving myself just enough time to get there and start straight into it. I won't be carb loading or drinking gallons of water or sports drinks. Do what has worked for you , if I ate the meal sizes I see people post the night before a marathon I wouldn't get close to my targets time!

I'd say the mental side of it is huge , the mind will stop you before your legs will . Every race I have ever done even parkrun or some training runs whenever you are close to the limit there is going to be a mental battle going on. Its about convincing yourself you've got to keep going when your mind is telling you to stop. I'm sure I will be having lots of conversations with myself the whole way around its why I don't want to have an A/B/C goal . For me I know there is going to be tough times and i'll revert to B or C goal too quickly, if that seed of doubt is there my mind will let that grow to the point i'll just keeping dropping back my goals. If I am at the starting line its A goal or bust no doubt I'm running 3.16.29 thats it , its justs a mind f*** if you start thinking I can slow down and 3 minutes and just do my B goal .

Thats my 2 cents probably not a recommended attitude for everyone!

I agree completely with you, I’d say the mental side gets a lot of people, I know I struggle with it, and also the pressure of finally doing the thing you have trained for for months that has to affect people too

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yeah I remember now...your pit stop! ;-)

I could tell you the exact distance of that road, it’s probably one of my favourite places to run in the park!

statina

skyblue46 wrote: »

Oh jaysus. My table...gone....destroyed![/quote]

Sorry about that, didn't really know what I was at. Thanks for fixing it

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

What is it about the day? Why do people who have done a 1:45 half reach halfway in 1:59 and be in trouble by mile 15? This is my big worry. They had done good lsrs of 20 miles but had problems before that distance at paces not appreciably faster. Does nervous energy drain you?

Bad days, improper training, the mind body connection. Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I could give you a sure answer as it could be a thousand things. Many may missed a lot of training, may not have trained properly for the demands of the event both mentally and physically. Running those long runs so close to Goal pace may have caused it, your body has to ebb and flow over a training cycle(peaking is a thing so it possible some peaked before raceday because training/recovery was mismanaged by too much hard running and not enough recovery) which is known as leaving your race in training.

The difference in pace may not seem appreciable but even an unappreciable difference can make a difference:pac:. Finishing a 20 miler at close to race pace might be achievable to some in training as mentally you only have a few miles to go if you starting feeling under pressure at 15 or 16. Starting to feel it on raceday at 15 is a different story when there's 11 left. It's not that you are hurting that much but the mind knows the score at that stage, something a lot of people call the central governor theory in physiology as the mind starts shutting down your muscles if it thinks the pace is unsustainable for your current fuel levels to last.

Like Anna mentioned about the DCM14 weather, I went out a lot slower than my half marathon shape from that time and at no stage during the race did the pain feel like I was running a half marathon yet I was walking by 14 because the effort levels felt way too high to maintain for 26.2 or even 20 for that matter that day.

I think it's a combination of things really that make those days happen and are probably more likely for novices as the lifetime endurance base may not be quite big enough yet(years of training). It takes years of running at a high volume to gain proper marathon endurance whereas the half and 10k seem to come much quicker for instance. Take me for instance, I've been running for a couple of years and can regularly beat the calculators half marathon predictions from 10k times but I still haven't come close to running predicted marathon times from either of those. Maybe I never will as my body could very well be more suited to running optimally at 1500m or the half marathon for instance and all the training in the world may never change that as my genetics may favour a certain distance.

There's so many factors that can go into someone cracking early in a marathon. training,experience and pace are probably the main ones and along with tables like the one above are the reason I was pushing the conservative approach so much. I know it was probably wrecking people's heads with doubts but I've followed every Novice thread since 2014 and I've seen it all before.

It's late, I'm sick and somewhat delerious so not sure if anything I wrote there makes sense:pac:

skyblue46

El Caballo wrote: »

Bad days, improper training, the mind body connection. Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I could give you a sure answer as it could be a thousand things. Many may missed a lot of training, may not have trained properly for the demands of the event both mentally and physically. Running those long runs so close to Goal pace may have caused it, your body has to ebb and flow over a training cycle(peaking is a thing so it possible some peaked before raceday because training/recovery was mismanaged by too much hard running and not enough recovery) which is known as leaving your race in training.

The difference in pace may not seem appreciable but even an unappreciable difference can make a difference:pac:. Finishing a 20 miler at close to race pace might be achievable to some in training as mentally you only have a few miles to go if you starting feeling under pressure at 15 or 16. Starting to feel it on raceday at 15 is a different story when there's 11 left. It's not that you are hurting that much but the mind knows the score at that stage, something a lot of people call the central governor theory in physiology as the mind starts shutting down your muscles if it thinks the pace is unsustainable for your current fuel levels to last.

Like Anna mentioned about the DCM14 weather, I went out a lot slower than my half marathon shape from that time and at no stage during the race did the pain feel like I was running a half marathon yet I was walking by 14 because the effort levels felt way too high to maintain for 26.2 or even 20 for that matter that day.

I think it's a combination of things really that make those days happen and are probably more likely for novices as the lifetime endurance base may not be quite big enough yet(years of training). It takes years of running at a high volume to gain proper marathon endurance whereas the half and 10k seem to come much quicker for instance. Take me for instance, I've been running for a couple of years and can regularly beat the calculators half marathon predictions from 10k times but I still haven't come close to running predicted marathon times from either of those. Maybe I never will as my body could very well be more suited to running optimally at 1500m or the half marathon for instance and all the training in the world may never change that as my genetics may favour a certain distance.

There's so many factors that can go into someone cracking early in a marathon. training,experience and pace are probably the main ones and along with tables like the one above are the reason I was pushing the conservative approach so much. I know it was probably wrecking people's heads with doubts but I've followed every Novice thread since 2014 and I've seen it all before.

It's late, I'm sick and somewhat delerious so not sure if anything I wrote there makes sense:pac:

It makes total sense! Still doesn't help me decide what pace to set off at though. The pace issue in training is massive though, I couldn't agree more.

El Caballo

Bib No.| ]Username | Target Time | Actual Time
12345 | skyblue46 |  03:59:59 |
12346 | quickbeam |  05:59:59 |
12347 | candamir | 03:59:59 |
12348| kellygirl | 04:29:59 |
12349 | Damo 2k9 | 03:59:59 |
12350 | Positron | 04:29:59 |
12351| Lazare | 03:58:xx |
12352|Leesider|04:59:59|
12353 | clickerquicklic | 03:16:29 |
12354 | stampydmonkey | 03:56:xx |
12355 | RolandDeschain | 03:54:xx |
12356 | BrownEyes79 | 04:20:xx |
12357|statina|4:55:59


Fixed, for anyone who doesn't know how to use the table. Just quote the post and remove any writing like this along with the quote tags at the top and bottom and then enter your name and time.

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

It makes total sense! Still doesn't help me decide what pace to set off at though. The pace issue in training is massive though, I couldn't agree more.

Or me - I hope i'm not about to get it very wrong.

Good post El Caballo.

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

Or me - I hope i'm not about to get it very wrong.

Good post El Caballo.

I know I'm training at slow safe paces, I was as confident as one could be about this whole thing while aware that weather, injury, sickness could be the fly in the ointment. Now I'm even doubting setting off at what I considered a safe conservative pace. :-O

RolandDeschain

El Caballo wrote: »

Bad days, improper training, the mind body connection. Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I could give you a sure answer as it could be a thousand things. Many may missed a lot of training, may not have trained properly for the demands of the event both mentally and physically. Running those long runs so close to Goal pace may have caused it, your body has to ebb and flow over a training cycle(peaking is a thing so it possible some peaked before raceday because training/recovery was mismanaged by too much hard running and not enough recovery) which is known as leaving your race in training.

The difference in pace may not seem appreciable but even an unappreciable difference can make a difference:pac:. Finishing a 20 miler at close to race pace might be achievable to some in training as mentally you only have a few miles to go if you starting feeling under pressure at 15 or 16. Starting to feel it on raceday at 15 is a different story when there's 11 left. It's not that you are hurting that much but the mind knows the score at that stage, something a lot of people call the central governor theory in physiology as the mind starts shutting down your muscles if it thinks the pace is unsustainable for your current fuel levels to last.

Like Anna mentioned about the DCM14 weather, I went out a lot slower than my half marathon shape from that time and at no stage during the race did the pain feel like I was running a half marathon yet I was walking by 14 because the effort levels felt way too high to maintain for 26.2 or even 20 for that matter that day.

I think it's a combination of things really that make those days happen and are probably more likely for novices as the lifetime endurance base may not be quite big enough yet(years of training). It takes years of running at a high volume to gain proper marathon endurance whereas the half and 10k seem to come much quicker for instance. Take me for instance, I've been running for a couple of years and can regularly beat the calculators half marathon predictions from 10k times but I still haven't come close to running predicted marathon times from either of those. Maybe I never will as my body could very well be more suited to running optimally at 1500m or the half marathon for instance and all the training in the world may never change that as my genetics may favour a certain distance.

There's so many factors that can go into someone cracking early in a marathon. training,experience and pace are probably the main ones and along with tables like the one above are the reason I was pushing the conservative approach so much. I know it was probably wrecking people's heads with doubts but I've followed every Novice thread since 2014 and I've seen it all before.

It's late, I'm sick and somewhat delerious so not sure if anything I wrote there makes sense:pac:

Great post, thanks.

The main thing I'm taking from your post is run by feel rather than time. We aren't professionals or experience runners. There will be flaws in our training nutrition sleep. Run the marathon that is there for you that day and try and enjoy it.


I've been thinking a lot this week about why I'm running a marathon. Just finishing the marathon will achieve that. Target times....that's just the icinig. It's the marathon that's the cake. I would prefer enjoy the marathon and be over 4 hours than suffer horrendously, beat 4 hours but never want to run or train again.

Anyways.....rant over!

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

I know I'm training at slow safe paces, I was as confident as one could be about this whole thing while aware that weather, injury, sickness could be the fly in the ointment. Now I'm even doubting setting off at what I considered a safe conservative pace. :-O

There's only one to find out. Whatever happens on raceday, you guys will learn a ton from it and that will stand to you all hugely going forward. The first time you do anything is a learning experience and you will be much better prepared next time out. I know you guys have trained for months towards this race but try not to see this one as the end, it's a stepping stone.

skyblue46

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Great post, thanks.

The main thing I'm taking from your post is run by feel rather than time. We aren't professionals or experience runners. There will be flaws in our training nutrition sleep. Run the marathon that is there for you that day and try and enjoy it.


I've been thinking a lot this week about why I'm running a marathon. Just finishing the marathon will achieve that. Target times....that's just the icinig. It's the marathon that's the cake. I would prefer enjoy the marathon and be over 4 hours than suffer horrendously, beat 4 hours but never want to run or train again.

Anyways.....rant over!

That's not a rant, it's a reasoned reply!

RolandDeschain

skyblue46 wrote: »

That's not a rant, it's a reasoned reply!

Ha if I manage to complete it then there will be no reason just raw emotion.

The suspense has got to me today! I think being cooped up inside all day has made it worse.

Unthought Known

Gotta love taper madness, it's contagious!

El Caballo put it perfectly. There's a big difference between feeling tired at 15 miles of an LSR vs 15 miles of a marathon. You can't do anything to improve your training at this stage so just trust in what you've achieved so far and commit to your own race, but be realistic about your A goal.
If you hit a bad spot on race day think back to your bad runs in this plan, the ones you toughed out. If you're struggling at mile 15 tell yourself mentally that it's only 5 miles to the 20 mark. Even better, "it's only 1 mile to the next water station", " 2 miles to Templeogue Rd". Get to the next point then focus on a a new landmark, but don't fixate on the distance on your watch, it will drive you mad.
I actually took the distance field off my Garmin for the 3/4 marathon to test and just had Time/Lap Pace/Avg Pace showing. The miles really did seem to just tick over as I didn't know or care if I was, for example, at the 14.6 or 14.7 point, I just knew the last marker was 14, the next is 15 and my race plan is to pick up the pace after 15 miles.