DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

The Black Oil

Race opportunity this weekend. Good chance to practice your pre-race routine. Breakfast and gear/bag.

brownbinman

I've always been unsure of what to do for a warm up, for example, I tend to quick march for 2 mins or so, start up a slow trot then increase pace to where I normally run, around 6min pace.

Afterwards however I stretch out, especially hamstrings, calves and quads

Anyone got any views on pre-run warm up?

Thanks in advance

quickbeam

The Black Oil wrote: »

Just a few more clicks on your computer...

Don't want to while I'm still so unsure of making it:

(1) It'd be a waste of ?80 that I can't really justify if I end up not taking part and;
(2) It'd deprive somebody else of a spot who would make use of it if they were given it.

WW already mentioned the risk of leaving it too late if I do decide to take part, only to find it sold out. I guess that's the risk I have to take, but there's always next year if that happens.

AuldManKing

brownbinman wrote: »

I've always been unsure of what to do for a warm up, for example, I tend to quick march for 2 mins or so, start up a slow trot then increase pace to where I normally run, around 6min pace.

Afterwards however I stretch out, especially hamstrings, calves and quads

Anyone got any views on pre-run warm up?

Thanks in advance

If you are running 'easy paced' runs - then there is no need to warm up, perhaps take the 1st 1k easier.

If you are doing a session (tempo or intervals) then I would encourage an easy run of at least 1m to get the muscles warm - then a bit of dynamic stretching (e.g. leg swings) prior to the session. (don't static stretch before warming up)
I'd also recommend a cool down as well of 1km to 1m at a minimum - followed by more stretching.

As your mileage progresses, you can add to your warm up and cool down miles as these will count towards your total mileage.

http://www.active.com/running/articles/5-key-stretches-for-runners

brownbinman

AuldManKing wrote: »

If you are running 'easy paced' runs - then there is no need to warm up, perhaps take the 1st 1k easier.

If you are doing a session (tempo or intervals) then I would encourage an easy run of at least 1m to get the muscles warm - then a bit of dynamic stretching (e.g. leg swings) prior to the session. (don't static stretch before warming up)
I'd also recommend a cool down as well of 1km to 1m at a minimum - followed by more stretching.

As your mileage progresses, you can add to your warm up and cool down miles as these will count towards your total mileage.

http://www.active.com/running/articles/5-key-stretches-for-runners

Lovely, thanks!

Sheep1978

My planned 3m easy first run last night resulted in 3.4m @ avg 8.41 pace. First mile was way too fast so slowed it down then which is why the avg is fast than wanted. Will take me a few of these easy runs to get used to slower running. Going to try get a second hand Garmin to help me for the next 4/5 months.

5m at pace planned tonight

ariana`

Sheep1978 wrote: »

My planned 3m easy first run last night resulted in 3.4m @ avg 8.41 pace. First mile was way too fast so slowed it down then which is why the avg is fast than wanted. Will take me a few of these easy runs to get used to slower running. Going to try get a second hand Garmin to help me for the next 4/5 months.

5m at pace planned tonight

I'm into my 3rd week of 'project slow down' and honestly i'm loving it. I thought it would be a lot harder but i already love the feeling that i can run forever and i find myself wanting to run every night - unfortunately real life doesn't allow me too and i wouldn't want to overdo it but it's a great feeling giving me confidence of managing the plan when the mileage increases

And i've no idea if it's accurate at all but according to my Garmin my V02 max has increased in the past 2 weeks

ariana`

quickbeam wrote: »

Don't want to while I'm still so unsure of making it:

(1) It'd be a waste of ?80 that I can't really justify if I end up not taking part and;
(2) It'd deprive somebody else of a spot who would make use of it if they were given it.

WW already mentioned the risk of leaving it too late if I do decide to take part, only to find it sold out. I guess that's the risk I have to take, but there's always next year if that happens.

Just regarding this i'm pretty sure you can defer your place to next year. Unfortunately there's always going to be people who register but don't make it to the starting line due to injury, illness or other.

AuldManKing

ariana` wrote: »

Just regarding this i'm pretty sure you can defer your place to next year. Unfortunately there's always going to be people who register but don't make it to the starting line due to injury, illness or other.

No Deferrals unfortunately.

From the FAQ on the site:

Do I get a refund or deferment if I can't run?
Entry fees are NON-REFUNDABLE and entries are NON-TRANSFERABLE. Sorry, no exceptions. Once we receive and accept your entry, you will not receive a refund if you cannot participate

ariana`

AuldManKing wrote: »

No Deferrals unfortunately.

From the FAQ on the site:

Do I get a refund or deferment if I can't run?
Entry fees are NON-REFUNDABLE and entries are NON-TRANSFERABLE. Sorry, no exceptions. Once we receive and accept your entry, you will not receive a refund if you cannot participate

Wow, is that normal for marathons? It's quite a big hit to take especially when you need to register quite early in the training to secure a place.

positron

I haven't been posting lately as I have kinda falled off the train, so to speak. I started HHN1 plan some two months ago (before this thread started) and I've realised that my body doesn't like running consecutive days, even if it's only 5k per day. So it took me 4 repetitions to just about get past HHN1 Week 5 (5k, 8k, 5k, 16k). By that time, with all the sunshine, I also started a bit cycling. Last couple of months I have been cycling an hour or so on Sundays (cross training day as per HH) doing 20-30 kms. Last couple of weeks I have increased it to 70-80k. Cycling is a lot easier than running and I was hoping that I can build up a bit of endurance cycling which will then translate to ability to keep running for over hour or two, which I think is kinda big deal if I actually want to do to the DCM... Although after the first 75k ride, I completely fell off the running plan. I was fine physically but I was feeling tired mentally, and work and odd shower here and there meant I wasted a complete week with no running except for the Parkrun.

Anyway, long story, I am back on the training plan again this week - HHN1 Week 6 (5k, 8k, 5k, 11k) - fingers crossed I see this thru. Now that I have said it all here, I guess I have no choice but to follow thru.

pcuser

Can someone tell me when I should introduce energy gels to my runs. My longest L.S.R so far has being 10 miles. I have a 12 mile L.S.R this week. I normally have some bread with chocolate spread about 1.5 hours before my longer runs and it seems to do the job.

Wubble Wubble

Baby75 wrote: »

Wubble wubble great guide!! so do we pick the wave we go out in! picking the pacers is it sorry if that is a silly question!

Lazare good luck and I will be there as well a good group of us are heading up

You can, and you'll find that lots of people just go in the first wave when realistically they're just going to have people passing them for the entire race. I only just discovered they have lots of pacers for Saturday (this wasn't the case with this race any time I ran it before) Previously, I remember Wave 1 being sub-40 mins. You mentioned going with 9 min or 10 min pacers; they would be in the second wave. Best of luck with whatever you decide

Wubble Wubble

Yevon wrote: »

Hi folks, I began reading the 2016 version of this thread after I went to the 25 mile marker at the DCM and was completely blown away by it. Had done a couple of halves and that day spurred me on to do my first full just over 2 weeks ago. Straight away I signed up for Dublin and I've loved reading this thread so thought I'd get involved!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

(Only realising as I write this that I haven't run very many races since I progressed from 10k and when my times started improving so I've put in my Nike+ app PBs also to get a better picture of where I'm at)
5k - Grant Thornton run I did 23.10 (my PB not in a race is 21.49 in August 2016)
10k - Lust for Life March 2016 51.26 (first and only 10k race, PB training is 48.10 in November 2016)
Half Marathon - Clontarf Half Marathon November 2016, 1.57 (Did 1.47 marathon training in April)
Marathon - Edinburgh 2017, 4:18:54

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)

No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

Have been taking it easy the last few weeks after Edinburgh but from this week I'll be doing one long run, one fast run and one hilly/easy run per week and doing core exercises, squats and hamstring exercises 5-6 nights a week (not too strenuous) too trying to combat hamstring issues.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

I just want to experience Dublin but the dream is to do a Sub 4.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

I can train 4 to 5 days a week. I have yet to pick a plan but hoping to try put in a better effort at hill runs and progression runs, speedwork etc. Any advice appreciated!!

Why are you running this marathon?

I started running to combat anxiety, without going into a spiel, it's been a long way from that first run to marathon training but running has been my release for about 4 years now. I was blown away by the scenes at the final mile and finish line of DCM 2016 and I wanted to be a part of it!

Welcome Yevon! Impressive times on the Nike App, and the race times aren't so bad either.
A clubmate ran that same Edinburgh Marathon, and found the heat really tough going. Particularly in such conditions, 4:18 is no mean feat for your first.
Take it easy with the recovery; easy mistake to make, doing too much too soon afterwards, especially for less experienced runners. In relation to DCM, you've already got a strong base from your Edinburgh training and race. I'd recommend the Boards plan for you, and I'd add that the sub-4 is a very realistic goal. Thanks for signing up, best of luck!

Wubble Wubble

positron wrote: »

I haven't been posting lately as I have kinda falled off the train, so to speak. I started HHN1 plan some two months ago (before this thread started) and I've realised that my body doesn't like running consecutive days, even if it's only 5k per day. So it took me 4 repetitions to just about get past HHN1 Week 5 (5k, 8k, 5k, 16k). By that time, with all the sunshine, I also started a bit cycling. Last couple of months I have been cycling an hour or so on Sundays (cross training day as per HH) doing 20-30 kms. Last couple of weeks I have increased it to 70-80k. Cycling is a lot easier than running and I was hoping that I can build up a bit of endurance cycling which will then translate to ability to keep running for over hour or two, which I think is kinda big deal if I actually want to do to the DCM... Although after the first 75k ride, I completely fell off the running plan. I was fine physically but I was feeling tired mentally, and work and odd shower here and there meant I wasted a complete week with no running except for the Parkrun.

Anyway, long story, I am back on the training plan again this week - HHN1 Week 6 (5k, 8k, 5k, 11k) - fingers crossed I see this thru. Now that I have said it all here, I guess I have no choice but to follow thru.

This can happen! Glad to see you're getting back into the swing of things It does take time to get used to consecutive days running, so don't be surprised or disappointed if not everything clicks into place straight away.

Lazare

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

You can, and you'll find that lots of people just go in the first wave when realistically they're just going to have people passing them for the entire race. I only just discovered they have lots of pacers for Saturday (this wasn't the case with this race any time I ran it before) Previously, I remember Wave 1 being sub-40 mins. You mentioned going with 9 min or 10 min pacers; they would be in the second wave. Best of luck with whatever you decide

I think wave 1 is sub30, wave 2 31 - 40, wave 3 41 - 50 and wave 4 51+

Wubble Wubble

pcuser wrote: »

Can someone tell me when I should introduce energy gels to my runs. My longest L.S.R so far has being 10 miles. I have a 12 mile L.S.R this week. I normally have some bread with chocolate spread about 1.5 hours before my longer runs and it seems to do the job.

This is a topic that gets brought up every year and not just by Novices....

Some people I know of absolutely swear by them. In fact I clearly remember seeing a guy in DCM 2016 with at least eight gels hanging off his belt.

Others think they're a complete and utter marketing gimmick.

As for me, I used them on some of my LSRs in the later stages of training for the marathon last year, and in the marathon itself. I think I had four on the day, which I took at 9/13/17/21 miles IIRC.

However, I wouldn't bother with them for shorter runs, and haven't touched one since that day. I don't think they're necessary for a 12 mile LSR anyway. IIRC the first time I tried one was for last summer's Novices get together for a 14 mile LSR - this was in about week 7 of the plans.

For you, I'd say give them a try at some stage down the line. You may find they're a great help, especially when you're struggling, or alternatively you may even find the taste disgusting Different strokes for different folks

Wubble Wubble

Lazare wrote: »

I think wave 1 is sub30, wave 2 31 - 40, wave 3 41 - 50 and wave 4 51+

Ok so it's changed a lot from in my day Thanks Lazare!

pgarr

pcuser wrote: »

Can someone tell me when I should introduce energy gels to my runs. My longest L.S.R so far has being 10 miles. I have a 12 mile L.S.R this week. I normally have some bread with chocolate spread about 1.5 hours before my longer runs and it seems to do the job.

Hi pc,

The theory behind nutrition is you should use them on runs exceeding 90 minutes.

So if your expecting to hit 1hr 45 on a run I would take a gel with. It's very important to get a few runs in with the gels you will use on the day.

If planning on using for race day then it's no harm to get used to fueling in the same pattern - common time intervals would be every 30 - 45 minutes.

Baby75

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

You can, and you'll find that lots of people just go in the first wave when realistically they're just going to have people passing them for the entire race. I only just discovered they have lots of pacers for Saturday (this wasn't the case with this race any time I ran it before) Previously, I remember Wave 1 being sub-40 mins. You mentioned going with 9 min or 10 min pacers; they would be in the second wave. Best of luck with whatever you decide

I think I will change that to 11 minute miles and move forward, I know I will push myself but want to last as well. last 2 times I went out doing 5 mile were two horrible runs, I won't go into the details but pulled my calf on one and ran it in 50 minutes next time my bladder was not behaving and ran in 53 minutes

or would I be better starting further back again, I am not hung up on a time I will be happy to run it well and finish strong

The Muppet

pcuser wrote: »

Can someone tell me when I should introduce energy gels to my runs. My longest L.S.R so far has being 10 miles. I have a 12 mile L.S.R this week. I normally have some bread with chocolate spread about 1.5 hours before my longer runs and it seems to do the job.

Thats trial and error, you need to find a fueling stratetgy which works for you and then hope it will still work on the day. Listen to the experiencd marathon runners here and try figure out a strategy for yourself and the try remember it and implement it on the day.

Don't rely on gels alone as they can cause stomach issues, I never had an issue with them all through training last year, i took one half an hour into the marathon last year and it sickened me. In DCM there are a couple of lucozade sports feuling areas and there will be people offering jelly beans , oranges, bananna etc , I didn't chance any of that but many did and it will be available in DCM, Not sure if the good people of Dingle will be a generous as us dubs though. 8-)

Sheep1978

If my 'marathon' pace is approx. 8.20 and my 'easy' pace is approx. 9.10. How slow should my weekend LSR runs be.? Same as my easy pace or slower again.?

deisedude

Anyone tried Generation UCAN as an alternative to gels? I've a very sensitive stomach at the best of times so don't want to mess with gels

smashiner

deisedude wrote: »

Anyone tried Generation UCAN as an alternative to gels? I've a very sensitive stomach at the best of times so don't want to mess with gels

Haven't tried Generation UCAN, but I did switch over to 'HIGH 5' Electrolyte tablets in my water bottles as they are very light on the stomach (versus Lucozade) and I also then used jelly babies (wrapped in tin foil to keep them dry), for a bit of a sugar kick for later on in the LSR's or the DCM itself.

I found this approach to be very kind of the body versus too many gels that can play havoc with stomach.

Sports Beans (jelly beans) in a pack from Cycle Superstore etc were good too, I used the non caffeine ones and found them good too. Get your experiments in now and find a gel/drink/sweets that work for you

Wubble Wubble

smashiner wrote: »

Haven't tried Generation UCAN, but I did switch over to 'HIGH 5' Electrolyte tablets in my water bottles as they are very light on the stomach (versus Lucozade) and I also then used jelly babies (wrapped in tin foil to keep them dry), for a bit of a sugar kick for later on in the LSR's or the DCM itself.

I found this approach to be very kind of the body versus too many gels that can play havoc with stomach.

Sports Beans (jelly beans) in a pack from Cycle Superstore etc were good too, I used the non caffeine ones and found them good too. Get your experiments in now and find a gel/drink/sweets that work for you

Last year I bought a gel pack with those High 5 sachets and whatnot from Lidl. Might be worth a look if you're interested.

Spirogyra

If very tired, from training last night, should I rest or do a short run anyway ? Sleep wasn't great either...

AuldManKing

Sheep1978 wrote: »

If my 'marathon' pace is approx. 8.20 and my 'easy' pace is approx. 9.10. How slow should my weekend LSR runs be.? Same as my easy pace or slower again.?

Kinda depends on a few factors - your experience and mileage per week etc.

For a Novice I'd say that its ok for the LSR pace to drop very slightly on typical lower mileage runs at the beginning, but over time your pace should be naturally increasing as you get stronger (but never feel that you are pushing it to be faster)

For more experienced runners there's so much you can do with a long run, from making it a 'fast finish long run' or a tempo in the middle - or some miles at MP thrown in. They all come with experience and as you get stronger.

But - for the Novice group, its ok for the pace to be the same as easy pace or slightly slower - the important aspect is the distance and the time on feet.

AuldManKing

Spirogyra wrote: »

If very tired, from training last night, should I rest or do a short run anyway ? Sleep wasn't great either...

If you think a short run will make you more tired for tomorrow - then rest!

Listen to the body.

However, I often feel tired but a short 3m run at a pace about 1min-90secs slower than easy pace, often invigorates me, especially if I throw in some short strides at the end.

The benefits of a recovery run are that it moves the blood around and gets the healing process going again in the body.

Spirogyra

AuldManKing wrote: »

If you think a short run will make you more tired for tomorrow - then rest!

Listen to the body.

However, I often feel tired but a short 3m run at a pace about 1min-90secs slower than easy pace, often invigorates me, especially if I throw in some short strides at the end.

The benefits of a recovery run are that it moves the blood around and gets the healing process going again in the body.

Did 2.5 miles very gently that also will ensure 4 day's training at least this week Body was tired, limbs not particularly fatigued or anything lot's of squats and lunges afterwards

Halloween Jack

Spirogyra wrote: »

If very tired, from training last night, should I rest or do a short run anyway ? Sleep wasn't great either...

Had a night out with mates on Saturday. Have completed all my sessions since, but been feeling flat and tired. Do people just push on in this circumstance? Supposed to run this eve but I'd say it's 50/50, even if I know it will revitalise me in some sense