DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

AuldManKing

Tec Diver wrote: »

Can we get a metric version of the plan please?
TIA

Multiply by 1.6 - We're all volunteers here

ariana`

clickerquicklic wrote: »

That was my original plan! Page 22 , the sessions in it are going to be too hard for me I already know by looking at them i'll burn out before marathon.
I cycle at least 100k a week wednesday thursday Friday and go to an interval session on thursdays. I'll probably skip that session if I am over tired and do a tempo or easy run instead. Tuesdays I have 3k+ (which is the warm up and cool down) and then the rest of the run at planned marathon pace. This plan looks much more achievable. The mileage in the runnersworld one would kill me.
Thanks

http://imgur.com/a/XEoIT

Would you drop some of the cycling and give priority to the running for the duration of the plan?

kin9pin

D3PO wrote: »

Hey kin9pin sorry that was just a training time. I read your reply and it shamed me into running a bit faster in training last night and I did a steady paced 52.30

That really wasn't my intention. Let's say that is now your 10k PB. Mcmillan gives you a predicted marathon time of 4:06, but, a big but, it doesn't take your endurance level into account.

Training ranges are as follows:
Long run: 5:47-6:35
Easy Run: 5:46-6:21

I would really recommend the slower end of the scale here, so 6:20+ for your long runs. Also keep your easy runs easy. The majority of your plan is easy runs so you should stick to it.

D3PO wrote: »

Im signed up for the race series and the rock n roll half. Should I be running these at targeted paces based on sub 4hr marathon pace or should I be running these as fast as I can ?

Oh also Ive been doing the LSRs at 5:50km pace. Is that too slow ? I know the LSR is the most important thing so want to make sure I get the most benefit out of it.

I would race the Fingal 10k in July. Give it a good lash, empty the tank, to see where you are potentially and then put that time into McMillan. However, I would still advise you to keep the LSR slow, slower than 6min/km pace. You'll need to save your energy as the mileage increases. Remember, it's the slow runs that build your endurance and that's your primary objective.

Finally, try to forget about a goal time for the time being. See how your training goes.

(notice I didn't answer anything about nutrition. I'll leave that to an expert )

scotindublin

Looks like a good start has been made to week 1 of the plan; keep up the good work!

As kingpin said don't get too hung up on times just now; the plans are there to get you to the start line in one piece and get you through the marathon.

I know some of you are struggling to adapt to running at a slower pace but trust in the plan; the LSRs are all about time on your feet and as the weekly mileage builds up you will be happy for the slower miles. All the novices last year had the same concerns as you have now.

There are a couple of events where WW has given you free reign for giving races a go so use these to see where you are time wise.

clickerquicklic

ariana` wrote: »

Would you drop some of the cycling and give priority to the running for the duration of the plan?

I ran to work last week one day instead of cycling and it was great but I started to notice running 5 days a week takes a toll on the body. I had a few niggles and didn't feel as fresh as when I alternate a run with a cycle.
I'm committing 4 days a week to running , in my book that's a lot of running , I've set a goal of 3.15 maybe its unrealistic off the training plan sure i'll give it a bash anyway!

leesider77

Heading out with work tomorrow night so got my easy short runs out of the way early this week.
3.1 @ 9.19 m/hr
3.1 @ 9:53 m/hr
3.4 @ 10.02 m/hr

Usually avoid the rain so felt angelic going out tonight in a downpour - realized that I'm not set up for running in the rain. Any advice what to wear on top - I felt cold tonight as I wasn't running fast - if this is in June I will definitely need something for October easy runs in the rain.

denis b

leesider77 wrote: »

I felt cold tonight as I wasn't running fast - if this is in June I will definitely need something for October easy runs in the rain.

A lightweight breathable running jacket is always handy to have all year round. You wont necessarily stay dry but you will feel warmer and more comfortable. Even at this time of year, when the wind blows on a wet day you will chill very quickly. The jacket will keep the wind at bay and keep you dry with light rain and showers. A hat may be worth considering on runs if the weather is dire.

Enjoy your running.

Battery Kinzie

Decided to take a bit of a down week this week rather than starting the Meno plan a week early. I feel like I needed it after playing football last week (probably my last game for a good while unfortunately) and having a good few high mileage weeks in a row recently. All easy running this week, though I may give a parkrun a go this weekend.

Also, just signed up for the 10k, 10m and HM races just now. I'm still delaying signing for the full, I'd just be sick to pay €80 only for me not to be able to run it. I know there's always gonna be a risk of that, but I'll leave it for the moment. As an aside, it's a bit mad the way you can't defer for a year or transfer numbers. I understand a lot of preparation goes into the organisation of the race and it's a massive task, but I don't see how that could be such a big deal? Meh.

scotindublin

Just a word of warning but indications are that the Marathon will be sold out by mid July.

Singer

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Also, just signed up for the 10k, 10m and HM races just now. I'm still delaying signing for the full, I'd just be sick to pay €80 only for me not to be able to run it. I know there's always gonna be a risk of that, but I'll leave it for the moment. As an aside, it's a bit mad the way you can't defer for a year or transfer numbers. I understand a lot of preparation goes into the organisation of the race and it's a massive task, but I don't see how that could be such a big deal? Meh.

According to DCM's social media, you only have a few weeks to sign up - maybe 2 or 3.

Battery Kinzie

Oh right, cheers both, didn't realise it'd be that soon. Thought it'd be August or so before it sold out. Will do it soon so.

D3PO

kin9pin wrote: »

That really wasn't my intention. Let's say that is now your 10k PB. Mcmillan gives you a predicted marathon time of 4:06, but, a big but, it doesn't take your endurance level into account.

Training ranges are as follows:
Long run: 5:47-6:35
Easy Run: 5:46-6:21

I would really recommend the slower end of the scale here, so 6:20+ for your long runs. Also keep your easy runs easy. The majority of your plan is easy runs so you should stick to it.



I would race the Fingal 10k in July. Give it a good lash, empty the tank, to see where you are potentially and then put that time into McMillan. However, I would still advise you to keep the LSR slow, slower than 6min/km pace. You'll need to save your energy as the mileage increases. Remember, it's the slow runs that build your endurance and that's your primary objective.

Finally, try to forget about a goal time for the time being. See how your training goes.

(notice I didn't answer anything about nutrition. I'll leave that to an expert )

Cheers.

Will work on those time ranges for runs so, I think that's my issue I felt like I was almost walking fast when I did 5:50 for my long run last week, it feels very unnatural going at that pace.

The plan I'm working on is it ok ? or is there another one I should look at moving to instead ?

And opening this up to anyone else with knowledge is there a good nutrition plan that goes with the training that I can / should implement ?

Will report back on my Fingal 10k time and you can let me know how realistic you think sub 4hr is for me.

leesider77

denis b wrote: »

A lightweight breathable running jacket is always handy to have all year round. You wont necessarily stay dry but you will feel warmer and more comfortable. Even at this time of year, when the wind blows on a wet day you will chill very quickly. The jacket will keep the wind at bay and keep you dry with light rain and showers. A hat may be worth considering on runs if the weather is dire.

Enjoy your running.

Thanks for that - any particular brand that you would recommend? I dont mind investing in it as I would like to make sure I have no excuses for avoiding runs in the rain.

hawkwing

Singer wrote: »

According to DCM's social media, you only have a few weeks to sign up - maybe 2 or 3.

Cheers for that,was leaving it for a while but just signed up now

denis b

leesider77 wrote: »

Thanks for that - any particular brand that you would recommend? I dont mind investing in it as I would like to make sure I have no excuses for avoiding runs in the rain.

The following link gives you an idea. Have just shown this for demonstration rather than a recommendation. Make sure it is a good fit and does not flap around, has a full length front zip and a decent collar to protect your neck. They should be relatively cheap but if you look for breathable outer layers (Goretex etc) then the product will be dearer and heavier. Personally I would not bother with that type of expense or weight .

Try Heatons, TKMaxx etc or keep an eye on Aldi/Lidl for specials.

ariana`

Some questions

I'm wondering about recovery runs. Are they a way of getting more miles in the legs without taxing the body. Or do they actually aid recovery in some way? So if one is already running 4 times per week, 2 x easy, 1 x session/mp & 1 x LSR, is a 5th short recovery run beneficial or is the benefit fairly neutral?

Ok, i know this is going to sound like i need to be spoon fed but what pace to run when the plan says Xmiles with no specific pace 'easy', 'recovery', 'lsr'?

Is it really really really true that you can't run too slow? My easy pace for example is circa 6:13 min/km. Last night, 3rd consecutive day running and legs feeling pretty fatigued, i ran 5.5km (3.x miles) @ 6:35min/km. HR was low (avg 131), it wasn't that i physically couldn't increase the pace but i just... well i just didn't

I'm guessing last night's run was 'recovery' pace for me and i think that's what i needed on the night so went with it and no regrets today. But i'm wondering if i end up doing that on 1 run every week over the course of 18 weeks then will it impact negatively on my training Or if it's what my body needs and helps prevent injury then maybe it's better even if ultimately i'm not as well trained for DCM but i'm injury free at least i will make the start line which is key to making the finish line.

Sorry for the long winded ramblings

leesider77

denis b wrote: »

The following link gives you an idea. Have just shown this for demonstration rather than a recommendation. Make sure it is a good fit and does not flap around, has a full length front zip and a decent collar to protect your neck. They should be relatively cheap but if you look for breathable outer layers (Goretex etc) then the product will be dearer and heavier. Personally I would not bother with that type of expense or weight .

Try Heatons, TKMaxx etc or keep an eye on Aldi/Lidl for specials.

Thanks for that! I appreciate you taking the time to answer my amateur queries.

AuldManKing

ariana` wrote: »

Some questions

I'm wondering about recovery runs. Are they a way of getting more miles in the legs without taxing the body. Or do they actually aid recovery in some way? So if one is already running 4 times per week, 2 x easy, 1 x session/mp & 1 x LSR, is a 5th short recovery run beneficial or is the benefit fairly neutral?

Ok, i know this is going to sound like i need to be spoon fed but what pace to run when the plan says Xmiles with no specific pace 'easy', 'recovery', 'lsr'?

Is it really really really true that you can't run too slow? My easy pace for example is circa 6:13 min/km. Last night, 3rd consecutive day running and legs feeling pretty fatigued, i ran 5.5km (3.x miles) @ 6:35min/km. HR was low (avg 131), it wasn't that i physically couldn't increase the pace but i just... well i just didn't

I'm guessing last night's run was 'recovery' pace for me and i think that's what i needed on the night so went with it and no regrets today. But i'm wondering if i end up doing that on 1 run every week over the course of 18 weeks then will it impact negatively on my training Or if it's what my body needs and helps prevent injury then maybe it's better even if ultimately i'm not as well trained for DCM but i'm injury free at least i will make the start line which is key to making the finish line.

Sorry for the long winded ramblings

More good questions!

Every run should have a purpose.
The 'purpose' of 'recovery runs' are to help you recover - they move blood around the legs helping to repair the micro tears in the fibres - so for recovery runs - even a shuffle is sufficient. I would recommend a recovery run over a rest day unless the body is calling out for a rest day.
The recovery run helps you recover to run better the next day/week.

As an example - My recovery pace is about 3 mins slower than my 10k pace.

Easy runs are for getting more mileage in without taxing the body - thats their purpose.
Your comment regarding the 6:13/km run - if thats what the body wanted then thats ok.

The important thing about running is that you need to run to what suits your body on any given day. Some times your easy pace will be faster and sometimes slower - all depending on weather, how you feel, sleep, food, pi$$ed off with work etc.
If McMillan says you have to run at a certain pace - thats a guideline - the real guide is what your body is telling you.
I guess if you run slow enough on an easy day that your form and mechanics start to change - then that's probably too slow.

Theres a set of videos on you tube from legendary coach Jack Daniels and he goes through different workouts etc.
Here is his thoughts on Easy pace - its only 90s long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJd2e5qbFo


Dont over think it too much - a 5th short recovery run is very beneficial and wont hurt you in the long run.

I dont quite get your question around 'Xmiles with no specific pace' - as far as I can see on the Boards plan - all the runs have a specification around pace??

If in doubt run 'easy' - remember the marathon is a pure aerobic event - easy miles should be the vast majority of your running.

AuldManKing

D3PO wrote: »

Cheers.

Will work on those time ranges for runs so, I think that's my issue I felt like I was almost walking fast when I did 5:50 for my long run last week, it feels very unnatural going at that pace.

The plan I'm working on is it ok ? or is there another one I should look at moving to instead ?

And opening this up to anyone else with knowledge is there a good nutrition plan that goes with the training that I can / should implement ?

Will report back on my Fingal 10k time and you can let me know how realistic you think sub 4hr is for me.

If you think you are going too slow that your form has changed, then be careful.

Nutrition is a minefield - so many different opinions out there and everyone is right.
I like this guy, Matt Fitzgerald - (but others dont): http://running.competitor.com/2013/11/nutrition/the-new-rules-of-marathon-nutrition_67841/3

Lazare

AuldManKing wrote: »

Easy runs are for getting more mileage in without taxing the body - thats their purpose.
Your comment regarding the 6:13/km run - if thats what the body wanted then thats ok.

The important thing about running is that you need to run to what suits your body on any given day. Some times your easy pace will be faster and sometimes slower - all depending on weather, how you feel, sleep, food, pi$$ed off with work etc.
If McMillan says you have to run at a certain pace - thats a guideline - the real guide is what your body is telling you.
I guess if you run slow enough on an easy day that your form and mechanics start to change - then that's probably too slow.

Theres a set of videos on you tube from legendary coach Jack Daniels and he goes through different workouts etc.
Here is his thoughts on Easy pace - its only 90s long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJd2e5qbFo


.

Thanks for this, I struggled this morning to keep pace and was feeling a little disheartened.

Baby75

AuldManKing Thanks so much for posting that information, they are great videos on running

Sheep1978

As most runs are 'easy' or LSR, I'm finding the 'pace' runs I'm doing are getting a little difficult. Not sure if its tiredness or if my body is getting used to slower pace. Should this be something to be worried about or am I overthinking (as usual).?

AuldManKing

Sheep1978 wrote: »

As most runs are 'easy' or LSR, I'm finding the 'pace' runs I'm doing are getting a little difficult. Not sure if its tiredness or if my body is getting used to slower pace. Should this be something to be worried about or am I overthinking (as usual).?

its just week 1 - dont overthink it just yet. It takes your body a while to adapt to something new, so I doubt its getting used to the slower pace.

I reckon its just tiredness at this stage because your body hasn't adapted just yet.
The 'pace' runs are as much of a mental battle as a physical one.

Before any pace run, I always do some strides (5 or 6 100m accelerations) to shock the system into whats to come.

If you are still feeling this way at week 9 or 10 then we'll look at it - but for now - its just about getting used to running more regularly.

AuldManKing

Let me just put this out there...........

There will be days when your body may want to stretch the legs a bit and do something on the faster range of easy .....thats quite ok too!!

brownbinman

regarding gels, I just bought 2 today. I was thinking of starting to test some out on the LSRs. I've a 10km planned for tomorrow and thinking of bringing one with me tomorrow. As it's only a 10km, I was only going to have maybe half of one and see how I get on

Am I mad or is it too early to start having these on LSRs?

skyblue46

brownbinman wrote: »

regarding gels, I just bought 2 today. I was thinking of starting to test some out on the LSRs. I've a 10km planned for tomorrow and thinking of bringing one with me tomorrow. As it's only a 10km, I was only going to have maybe half of one and see how I get on

Am I mad or is it too early to start having these on LSRs?

It will help you work out if you feel sickly after any brand or flavour. It won't be of any energy benefit on your run as your day to day reserves will carry you for about 90 mins before gels etc are needed.

brownbinman

skyblue46 wrote: »

It will help you work out if you feel sickly after any brand or flavour. It won't be of any energy benefit on your run as your day to day reserves will carry you for about 90 mins before gels etc are needed.

Great, thanks a million. So if I'm reading you right, they'll only be of benefit from 90mins onwards, basically in or around 16km/10m depending on pace

quickbeam

Can anyone recommend an alternative to gels or jelly beans for fuel? Something healthy?

AuldManKing

brownbinman wrote: »

Great, thanks a million. So if I'm reading you right, they'll only be of benefit from 90mins onwards, basically in or around 16km/10m depending on pace

Thats correct - but as skyblue says - even though it wont help you fuel wise - it will help you know which one your stomach can handle - so take it near the end of your run. I wouldn't take them every week though.

quickbeam wrote: »

Can anyone recommend an alternative to gels or jelly beans for fuel? Something healthy?

Its difficult to find healthy alternatives, but they do exist - a bit more expensive though.
you can try these - but you may have to order online.
http://www.shape.com/fitness/training-plans/12-tasty-alternatives-energy-gels

Some people make their own stuff - again you can check online, but one of the important criteria for you to consider is how to carry them for 20+ miles.

skyblue46

brownbinman wrote: »

Great, thanks a million. So if I'm reading you right, they'll only be of benefit from 90mins onwards, basically in or around 16km/10m depending on pace

That's right, your muscles supply of glycogen lasts about 90 mins on average. Gels for anything shorter is pretty much a waste of time. Also at this point it does no harm for your body to learn how to burn fat for energy which it will begin to do when your glycogen stores are depleted.