DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

Kmagic

Lazare wrote:

Post up a typical week, are you recovering enough for instance?

Two weeks ago HHN1 week 11

Mon 8m 1h20m
Tue 4m 40min
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 4m in 38m
Fri 16m in 3h
Sat 3m 37min
Sun rest

Last week was week 12 of HHN1.

Mon 8m in 1h16.
Tue 5m in 48m
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 12m 2h13m
Fri rest
Sat rest/wedding
Sun 4m in 36m

I move the runs around to suit work. Some weeks i could have 2/3 25hr shifts (7hrs sleep in work most nights). I feel im eating right and I'm going physio every 2 weeks, foam rolling daily and stretching. Also having hot bath 3 or 4 times a week. I feel I'm managing myself as well as i can, that just leaves fitness as far as i can see.

skyblue46

Kmagic wrote: »

Ive started the lsrs between 11.30 and 13.00 min miles on different runs. Any slower I'd be going backwards. I've seen that advice on here to others before. Not sure what else to try.

Just my tuppence worth here. Bear in mind I'm no expert but I have read up a lot the past few weeks about marathon training in an effort to help myself. You mention that you "can" reach certain speeds on shorter runs. This implies that it takes some effort. All marathon training plans recommend that 85% of your training should be at easy conversational pace. This is to lessen injury risk but more importantly to train your body for the pace you will run on the day. The muscle groups I use for a 1.2 metre stride on a fast run are not all the same as the ones I use for a 1m stride on a slow run. Different bones of my foot impact the ground at different forces and for different amounts of time. There are countless physiological differences between the two. Slow running may feel like running backwards but it is exactly the sort of running I'll be doing in the marathon! All that is a pretty long winded way of saying get used to running at marathon pace and don't worry about running faster over shorter distances.

This is the point where the experts and mentors will rip apart my theory!! :eek:

skyblue46

Kmagic wrote: »

Two weeks ago HHN1 week 11

Mon 8m 1h20m
Tue 4m 40min
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 4m in 38m
Fri 16m in 3h
Sat 3m 37min
Sun rest

Last week was week 12 of HHN1.

Mon 8m in 1h16.
Tue 5m in 48m
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 12m 2h13m
Fri rest
Sat rest/wedding
Sun 4m in 36m

I move the runs around to suit work. Some weeks i could have 2/3 25hr shifts (7hrs sleep in work most nights). I feel im eating right and I'm going physio every 2 weeks, foam rolling daily and stretching. Also having hot bath 3 or 4 times a week. I feel I'm managing myself as well as i can, that just leaves fitness as far as i can see.

What time are you aiming for in the marathon?

Kmagic

skyblue46 wrote:

What time are you aiming for in the marathon?

My plan was just to finish. I've seen WW and others say dont worry about times, fitness will improve etc. Seeing how my LSRs have gone recently, I'd say sub 5 would be the best i could hope for.

skyblue46

Kmagic wrote: »

My plan was just to finish. I've seen WW and others say dont worry about times, fitness will improve etc. Seeing how my LSRs have gone recently, I'd say sub 5 would be the best i could hope for.

WW and others are right! Six of your runs over the last 2 weeks are at near 4 hour/ 4.15 marathon pace. Where are the easy and recovery runs? Your longer runs are well within range of LSR pace for a 4.15 marathon. Methinks you are asking too much of yourself too soon and you're actually bang on target but overdoing it.

quickbeam

Kmagic wrote: »

I've just found the gap between 10 and 12 miles is way smaller than the gap between 15 and 16 miles. Everything will get exponentially tougher per mile thereafter. I think i just didn't give the 26.2 enough respect starting off. Have you been running long before this training plan?

Only since last September, so not even a year yet. And that was easing in to it with a C25K, and many stone overweight.

I'm on HHN1 too, but a few weeks behind you, so maybe I'll be where you are in a few weeks. But, everybody here has said to "trust the plan", so I'm trusting them, and trusting the plan. It is inconceivable to me that I'll ever manage 26+miles but I'm just taking it week on week. It was also inconceivable to me that I could ever do 10 miles, but I did that two weeks ago and felt dead after it, thinking I could never do more than that. It was then inconceivable to me that I could do 12 miles, but I did that this week, and also felt dead after it, and I'm doubting I can do more than that either. But next week it's meant to be 14 miles, and I'll give it a shot, and trust the plan.

I guess nobody said this would be easy. I guess that's why they say that getting to the starting line of a marathon is just as much of an accomplishment as getting to the finishing line. All that training is HARD!!!! I'm feeling it already, and you're ahead of me on the plan so are probably feeling it even more. But what's the worst that can happen on marathon day? You end up running 16 miles of it (you've done that, so you know you can do it), and have to walk the rest?? So what, you'll still cross the finishing line with a PB, and have a target set for the next time you run the marathon.

For the record, you say sub 5-hours is the best you can hope for. I'd only dream of a time like that. I'll be looking at 5.5 hours, absolute best, very probably closer to the 6 hour mark. But does it matter? I'll be thrilled just to cross the finishing line.

The Muppet

skyblue46 wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Very kind of you , I would never have ran a marathon without this thread' , it's the people here freely designing training plans and giving advice and encouragement to very average runners like myself that are amazing. If anyone can add commitment to that they can run a marathon

Fair play to you! A few knocks and bad days along the way but forever philosophical and learning for the next day. I can promise the commitment, just worried about the legs!!

Don't worry about the legs, get as much of the training runs in as you can and the legs will be ready for it.

The Muppet

Kmagic wrote: »

Looking for some advice on the LSRs. I'm on HHN1 and on week 13, aiming for my marathon on 17th sept.

Any of the longer mid week runs up to 10 miles, I can maintain 10 minute miles comfortably enough. Anything longer than this and my times drop. I feel my legs just can't keep going. My 12 mile lsr was 2h13min, my 15 mile lsr was 2h46m, and my 16 mile lsr was 3h. I'm due to do the 18 mile lsr this weekend and i think I'll be 3 and a half hours.

I have found that my fitness is improving and showing in my runs under 10 miles, i can hit 9.30 miles for some of my 5 to 8 mile runs that i couldn't do 2 months ago, but the longer distances catch me.

Befors starting HHN1 i had been running 2 or 3 10kms a week for 2 months. I've found stuff online suggesting my base might not be strong enough.

I guess my question is, is a full marathon too far for me this year? Should i do some halfs, maintain fitness and lose some weight and try again next year. Attempting 26.2 after 30 weeks of training kinda seems crazy, no?

My 2 cents is that your pmp pace is too quick for your current base. I don't think the full is too far for you though perhaps you should re evaluate the pmp especially if you do not have your heart set on a specific finishing time.

If it were me I'd run it this year but at a slower more comfortable pace . Enjoy the experience and leave the 4 hr marathon for next time .

ariana`

statina wrote: »

Hi folks

Was all set to write the weekly report on Sat but we got engaged about an hour after Park Run so just getting around to it now!

Tuesday- 5 mile- 9.54 per mile

Wednesday- Rest

Thursday- 15 mile LSR- 12.27 per minute. It went grand enough, took a gel at mile 10 which gave me a boost but hate the taste of them.

Sat- Park Run- Completed in 29.16 minutes

Have done nothing since only drink and eat :D:D

Will try and get back to it tomorrow evening, will see how it goes

The long runs are going to get a whole lot more exciting :p

Congratulations

ariana`

The Muppet wrote: »

My 2 cents is that your pmp pace is too quick for your current base. I don't think the full is too far for you though perhaps you should re evaluate the pmp especially if you do not have your heart set on a specific finishing time.

If it were me I'd run it this year but at a slower more comfortable pace . Enjoy the experience and leave the 4 hr marathon for next time .

Kmagic wrote: »

My plan was just to finish. I've seen WW and others say dont worry about times, fitness will improve etc. Seeing how my LSRs have gone recently, I'd say sub 5 would be the best i could hope for.

Maybe, work out a PMP based on 4:50:xx and run your PMP run at that pace and all other runs sloooooower than that pace. And reassess at the end of a week of that training? I bet you will feel better

No harm in aiming for it while knowing you have more in you for another attempt in the future with a better base. You will learn so much to take forward. I am fairly sure i have a sub 4hr marathon in me but i'm also fairly sure i don't have it in me this year. This year is building an endurance base which hopefully i can use next year to target a more aggressive time at the same distance or possibly at shorter distances (HM or 10K). The endurance will stand to us and allow us to follow more aggressive plans to build more speed endurance

muddypaws

I work for a few hours on Tuesday evenings and usually eat when I get home, very late. I was actually organised yesterday and had a good dinner; steak, mushrooms, spuds and sprouts (because they're not just for Christmas) at 5 o'clock, knowing I would be running after 9pm. Unfortunately, due to a water leak, the building was closed and I had to cancel my classes. So instead I started my run just over 2 hours after eating. I didn't feel like it affected me, but my pace was incredibly slow, even though I didn't feel like I was running even slower than normal, although maybe subconsciously I was taking it really easy in case over doing it? Strava kept saying my splits were 13 plus, but when I looked at it afterwards, every mile was in the 11 or 12 minute range, I am totally confused by it.

Six mile run done, 12 mile on Thursday.

I wore my new Brooks GTS last night, no blisters anymore but one of my toes felt odd, I used to get that feeling but haven't had it for a while. It's hard to describe, the toe feels really uncomfortable, and I have to keep moving it inside the runner to try and make it feel better. It did then feel really sore last night. I don't think it's cramp, but maybe it is. I wear Salomon trail runners when not running on roads usually and never have this issue. I know they don't have much support, but I'm wondering if I should stick with them for all my runs, including the marathon?

dos29

My program has a half marathon on the weekend of August 27th. Thinking about doing the one in Oylegate, Wexford. Anyone else doing this? Or any other the same weekend?

ariana`

muddypaws wrote: »

I work for a few hours on Tuesday evenings and usually eat when I get home, very late. I was actually organised yesterday and had a good dinner; steak, mushrooms, spuds and sprouts (because they're not just for Christmas) at 5 o'clock, knowing I would be running after 9pm. Unfortunately, due to a water leak, the building was closed and I had to cancel my classes. So instead I started my run just over 2 hours after eating. I didn't feel like it affected me, but my pace was incredibly slow, even though I didn't feel like I was running even slower than normal, although maybe subconsciously I was taking it really easy in case over doing it? Strava kept saying my splits were 13 plus, but when I looked at it afterwards, every mile was in the 11 or 12 minute range, I am totally confused by it.

Six mile run done, 12 mile on Thursday.

I wore my new Brooks GTS last night, no blisters anymore but one of my toes felt odd, I used to get that feeling but haven't had it for a while. It's hard to describe, the toe feels really uncomfortable, and I have to keep moving it inside the runner to try and make it feel better. It did then feel really sore last night. I don't think it's cramp, but maybe it is. I wear Salomon trail runners when not running on roads usually and never have this issue. I know they don't have much support, but I'm wondering if I should stick with them for all my runs, including the marathon?

Didn't you have problems with Strava at the park run as well? Are you running in a forest? Maybe you are losing signal. I wouldn't worry too much for the easy runs, i go mostly by feel. What feels easy one day isn't always the same as what feels easy another day.

I would often eat dinner 2 hrs before an easy run. Everyone is different but i'd be fine at that as well. For a harder run i'd leave it longer or just eat a smaller meal or a snack. Whatever works for you

ariana`

dos29 wrote: »

My program has a half marathon on the weekend of August 27th. Thinking about doing the one in Oylegate, Wexford. Anyone else doing this? Or any other the same weekend?

A lot of people are doing a 10 miler that weekend. The Frank Duffy (FD10) in Dublin is part of the Dublin Marathon Race Series is on both the Boards and the modified HHN plans.

I'm doing a HM 2 weeks later, Sept 9th.

beakerjoe

ariana` wrote: »

A lot of people are doing a 10 miler that weekend. The Frank Duffy (FD10) in Dublin is part of the Dublin Marathon Race Series is on both the Boards and the modified HHN plans.

I'm doing a HM 2 weeks later, Sept 9th.

Which HM is this?

ariana`

beakerjoe wrote: »

Which HM is this?

It's in Galway

Halloween Jack

Following the HH1 plan and skipped the lsr last week as it was a stepback week and my legs felt like lead after a holiday in the mountains and recent upping of mileage. Last nights short run was much improved, legs felt a lot looser and more inclined to do what I tell them, so hopefullymy calculated gamble to skip a run has paid off.

Wubble Wubble

Kmagic wrote: »

Two weeks ago HHN1 week 11

Mon 8m 1h20m
Tue 4m 40min
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 4m in 38m
Fri 16m in 3h
Sat 3m 37min
Sun rest

Last week was week 12 of HHN1.

Mon 8m in 1h16.
Tue 5m in 48m
Wed work (25 hour shift start at 11 till 12 noon on thursday)
Thurs 12m 2h13m
Fri rest
Sat rest/wedding
Sun 4m in 36m

I move the runs around to suit work. Some weeks i could have 2/3 25hr shifts (7hrs sleep in work most nights). I feel im eating right and I'm going physio every 2 weeks, foam rolling daily and stretching. Also having hot bath 3 or 4 times a week. I feel I'm managing myself as well as i can, that just leaves fitness as far as i can see.

Hi Kmagic,

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this. Thanks to all above who answered in my absence

Can you do it? Should you do it?
Answer yes and yes!

Looking at your post above (and others previous) it seems as if the time you're aiming for may be overly ambitious for this marathon.

If you decide to try another, even the mere fact that you're running more and longer should bring about benefits. Most repeat marathoners improve significantly from first to second, for the reasons above. In addition, they become more accustomed to working out what plans are suited to them, and also what their bodies can handle in terms of mileage, pacing etc.

Another thing that's often mentioned here is "Keep the easy days easy, and the hard days hard". If it's any consolation, keeping the pace "easy" is still a major problem of mine. There doesn't seem to be enough easy mileage in there?

In summary, I'd say try going closer to 4:45-5:00 PMP and see how that works for you.

The following is an extract from the very first post on the thread. It's one I refer back to all the time. Not just for yourself. Same rules apply for all reading here Best of luck!

---

General Guidelines

"Stick To The Plan" was the mantra for the 2016 Novices, myself included. The longest runs are the most important. You can of course switch runs around within a week if you need to. If you have to skip a run, try make it one of the short runs. When it's gone, it's gone. Do not go chasing lost mileage in subsequent weeks.

In the weeks leading up to the start of the program, ramp up your mileage very gently towards 20 miles. Don't increase your mileage by more than 10% each week.

Run slow. Once you think you run slow enough, run even slower. You will not be able to complete all the training miles if you don't run the majority of them slow (slower than you will run on the day itself). Once the program is about to start, we'll talk about how to determine your ideally training paces.

Be realistic. A marathon is no mean physical or mental challenge - hopefully you will have raced at some of the shorter distances already. Don't set your heart on hitting a particular time. You won't have a pace car in front of you to block out the wind, or have water bottles handed to you, a la Kipchoge and co. If you do want to set a target time, be conservative.

The marathon has so many variables that can impact on your time.
Listen to your body. If something doesn't feel right, stop your run.

henrietta

dos29 wrote: »

My program has a half marathon on the weekend of August 27th. Thinking about doing the one in Oylegate, Wexford. Anyone else doing this? Or any other the same weekend?

I'm doing the Tullamore half on 26th. Chose it because the timing seemed right and location wasn't too far away so fingers crossed it goes well.
Hadn't heard of the Clarinbridge one which could have been interesting but then I don't really like loops so maybe not for me.

ariana`

henrietta wrote: »

I'm doing the Tullamore half on 26th. Chose it because the timing seemed right and location wasn't too far away so fingers crossed it goes well.
Hadn't heard of the Clarinbridge one which could have been interesting but then I don't really like loops so maybe not for me.

I did the 10k there last year so it was just 2 loops. Parts of it are off-road which i rather liked. I'm interested to see how i find doing 4 loops. I think i'll be ok as i like breaking my long run down into manageable sections and checking them off mentally as i do them, so the loop aspect may suit me. I can't imagine doing a full marathon in 5k loops :eek:

muddypaws

ariana` wrote: »

Didn't you have problems with Strava at the park run as well? Are you running in a forest? Maybe you are losing signal. I wouldn't worry too much for the easy runs, i go mostly by feel. What feels easy one day isn't always the same as what feels easy another day.

I would often eat dinner 2 hrs before an easy run. Everyone is different but i'd be fine at that as well. For a harder run i'd leave it longer or just eat a smaller meal or a snack. Whatever works for you

I did have issues with Strava on Saturday, but I don't understand why it says one thing while I'm running, then something completely different later on? My garmin charger should be here tomorrow or Friday

Its funny, I just really felt like I needed steak yesterday, a running friend says she gets that feeling as well sometimes, all part of listening to our bodies I guess.

clickerquicklic

Got my long run in this morning as I'm away the weekend. Didn't sleep great and woke at 5:45 and really wanted to get the bus to work, I knew I'd regret it so on with the running gear and out the door just before 6am. Some days the miles just tick away but today was a real slog I was tired and found myself looking at my watch thinking it has to beep soon for another km, each km felt like a parkrun in itself. I was tired no food in stomach , no drinks with me. I pulled into a garage and grabbed an oversized bottle of water , now I was tired running with a heavy backpack and a bottle of water that was too big for my hand to hold comfortably

I was 8k in and I could of took the direct route to work for a 15k run but continued on my planned route down towards the seafront, can't believe how much of a slog this run was , normally listen to music but forgot my headphones. At 18k I could feel my leg muscles cramping a little ( i was thinking this is perfect prep for the marathon cramping legs!) I shook my legs out did a few longer strides and changed my form . It was nice to see how the body can start giving out on these long runs , my lower back was getting stiff also.

27km done in 2 hours 21minutes 5.15km ( in hindsight a little fast as PMP is 5min km's, but I was just running relaxed)
Reality check that 42km is not going to be a stroll in the park and that not all training runs of similar speed will feel the same effort.

Wubble Wubble

As an aside, if any of you are still looking for gel packs, the new Lidl in Cabra had stacks of them when I called in this morning. Handy if you're anywhere in that vicinity

beakerjoe

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

As an aside, if any of you are still looking for gel packs, the new Lidl in Cabra had stacks of them when I called in this morning. Handy if you're anywhere in that vicinity

Where abouts is this Lidl? Also what brand is the gels? Their own brand?

brownbinman

They usually do the High5, it's where the old PH Ross used to be, behind Hanlons

Wubble Wubble

brownbinman wrote: »

They usually do the High5, it's where the old PH Ross used to be, behind Hanlons

Correct on both counts. Not the same pack I got last year; this was 20 x 40 ml sachets of the High 5s for a tenner.

The Black Oil

Grand evening for getting your sweat on! :pac:

Halloween Jack

The Black Oil wrote: »

Grand evening for getting your sweat on! :pac:

Agreed, lovely 6 miles done there in fading sunshine and perfect temperature!!

Damo 2k9

Same as myself, out into Ashtown and down the canal. Took the wrong gate into tolka valley park on the way home and ended up doing 7.1 miles, horrible cramp from mile 4ish all the way home

muddypaws

Has anyone tried baby food pouches instead of energy gels, or jelly sweets?