DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

skyblue46

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

From the FAQ page...(my emphasis)

"Entrants pick one of three time zones when registering. Runners will start according to their allocated Times Zone. This is to ensure that there is less congestion in the early part of the race and all competitors achieve a smooth and prompt start. The wave system successfully blends participants in mutually competitive groupings. There are 4 wave starts. 08:55 : Wheelchair entrants 09:00 : 1st wave Sub 3:39 09:10 : 2nd wave 3:40 to 3:59 09:20 : 3rd wave 4:00 to 4:29 09:30 : Final wave 4:30 +"

I'm not sure how easy it would be to change waves, given that the deadline officially expired at the end of July. I didn't bother last year. You could ask at the expo perhaps, or maybe you'll be lucky on the day if trying to move up. They do have people checking bibs as they're going into the pens.

I think moving down waves on the day is ok but they'll be stopping people moving up. I'm now caught in a moral dilemma!

However as it is putting the cart nearly 10 weeks in front of the horse I'll forget about it for now.

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think moving down waves on the day is ok but they'll be stopping people moving up. I'm now caught in a moral dilemma!

However as it is putting the cart nearly 10 weeks in front of the horse I'll forget about it for now.

Too true, things could change between now and then. This sh*t is getting more real every day :eek:

Spoke to a work colleague and an experienced middle distance & marathon runner. He asked how my training is going and i said i've done 2 x 16m but they brought me quite close to the 3hr mark (2:52 & 2:57 they were both slightly over the 16m). He mentioned and i've heard it on these forums too that going over 3hrs has diminishing returns.

On the Boards plan there are still 1 x 18m, 1 x 19m and 2 x 20.

Roughly
16m @ 10:30 - 2:48
18m @ 10:30 - 3:09
19m @ 10:30 - 3:20
20m @ 10:30 - 3:30

Is 4 runs over the magic 3hr mark a lot to ask my body to recover from in the next few weeks and then to do the marathon itself as well What is the alternative? Should i be doing the boards plan at my kind of paces/level of fitness, was i was over-ambitious taking it on

quickbeam

I'd never heard that 3 hour guideline before. My 14m took me over the three hours too so I'd be interested to hear some expert's opinion on that too.

Baby75

quickbeam wrote: »

I'd never heard that 3 hour guideline before. My 14m took me over the three hours too so I'd be interested to hear some expert's opinion on that too.

I am interested to hear as well as my LSR will take me over the 3 hour mark


I think I am getting my 4 year olds cold such bad timing I am wondering should I run this evening or not I guess I will see how I feel closer to he time

beakerjoe

ariana` wrote: »

Too true, things could change between now and then. This sh*t is getting more real every day :eek:

Spoke to a work colleague and an experienced middle distance & marathon runner. He asked how my training is going and i said i've done 2 x 16m but they brought me quite close to the 3hr mark (2:52 & 2:57 they were both slightly over the 16m). He mentioned and i've heard it on these forums too that going over 3hrs has diminishing returns.

On the Boards plan there are still 1 x 18m, 1 x 19m and 2 x 20.

Roughly
16m @ 10:30 - 2:48
18m @ 10:30 - 3:09
19m @ 10:30 - 3:20
20m @ 10:30 - 3:30

Is 4 runs over the magic 3hr mark a lot to ask my body to recover from in the next few weeks and then to do the marathon itself as well What is the alternative? Should i be doing the boards plan at my kind of paces/level of fitness, was i was over-ambitious taking it on

Sorry Ariana, what did your friend mean by diminishing returns in terms of a 3 hrs?

EDIT : I got it now after re-reading

beakerjoe

Baby75 wrote: »

I am interested to hear as well as my LSR will take me over the 3 hour mark


I think I am getting my 4 year olds cold such bad timing I am wondering should I run this evening or not I guess I will see how I feel closer to he time

I dont know, I felt tired today. Not physically from running, but like the begining of a cold.

I went out anyway and did 4 miles (rather than 3, I run up to my misses in her job to see her and run back. So theres a 15 min break when I reach mile 2).

Glad I ran, feel energised a bit after it. Have a niggle on my big toe though, a bit of soreness

The Muppet

ariana` wrote: »

. He mentioned and i've heard it on these forums too that going over 3hrs has diminishing returns.

On the Boards plan there are still 1 x 18m, 1 x 19m and 2 x 20.

Roughly
16m @ 10:30 - 2:48
18m @ 10:30 - 3:09
19m @ 10:30 - 3:20
20m @ 10:30 - 3:30

Is 4 runs over the magic 3hr mark a lot to ask my body to recover from in the next few weeks and then to do the marathon itself as well What is the alternative? Should i be doing the boards plan at my kind of paces/level of fitness, was i was over-ambitious taking it on

I'm not an expert and I don't know why going over 3 hours is seen has diminishing returns though i have seen it said here and elsewhere. Someone else will explain .

However I think its shouldn't apply to anyone aiming for a 4.30 plus marathon.
If you take a runner running LSR'S at around 11 minute miles they are going to cover around 15 miles in the allotted 3hr time. I think it's a big ask to expect them to step up from 15 miles to 26 miles on the day from a mental and physical perspective.

Having the 2 20 mile Lsrs done last year, each over 4 hours was definitely beneficial to me from a mental and physical perspective when the going got tough from 16 miles on on the day. Not sure I would have been equipped to finish but for the experience of having run 18 19 and 20 mile runs in the training. That's my take on it but as I said at the outset I'm no expert .

Baby75

beakerjoe wrote: »

I dont know, I felt tired today. Not physically from running, but like the begining of a cold.

I went out anyway and did 4 miles (rather than 3, I run up to my misses in her job to see her and run back. So theres a 15 min break when I reach mile 2).

Glad I ran, feel energised a bit after it. Have a niggle on my big toe though, a bit of soreness

They do say if it's in your head and not down in your chest you are ok, well done on getting 4mile done I think I will run but take it nice and easy

scotindublin

Nice to spot the esteemed leader of the 2017 Novices out for a training run in the Phoenix Park this evening.

BrownEyes79

ariana` wrote: »

Spoke to a work colleague and an experienced middle distance & marathon runner. He asked how my training is going and i said i've done 2 x 16m but they brought me quite close to the 3hr mark (2:52 & 2:57 they were both slightly over the 16m). He mentioned and i've heard it on these forums too that going over 3hrs has diminishing returns.

My times are very close to yours and I'm also doing the boards plan. My first 16 miles was 2:50 and the other was 2:58. So if your colleague is right I'm in the same boat as you!

BrownEyes79

Baby75 wrote: »

I think I am getting my 4 year olds cold such bad timing I am wondering should I run this evening or not I guess I will see how I feel closer to he time

A run might sweat the cold out of you!

skyblue46

BrownEyes79 wrote: »

My times are very close to yours and I'm also doing the boards plan. My first 16 miles was 2:50 and the other was 2:58. So if your colleague is right I'm in the same boat as you!

I asked a very good coach about this after the topic was raised. He said he would have an upper limit of 3 hours 20 mins for a long run. His logic seemed sound.

skyblue46

scotindublin wrote: »

Nice to spot the esteemed leader of the 2017 Novices out for a training run in the Phoenix Park this evening.

....runs to Strava to see who other than AMK was in the Park tonight!

skyblue46

Having viewed Strava I'm still no wiser who WW is!! He's one of 3/4 regular posters I haven't figured out yet..

The Black Oil

There was something in the marathon improvers thread about the 3 hour thing...if memory serves. Or, it was to do with there being no point of doing more than 22 miles* in training. Or time on your feet. *Not that anyone here will be doing that. :cool:

scotindublin

I am not 100% sure WW is on Strava but I have some suspicions! A new addition!

skyblue46 wrote: »

Having viewed Strava I'm still no wiser who WW is!! He's one of 3/4 regular posters I haven't figured out yet..

Spirogyra

Remarkable 'freshness' tonight after 20 miles sunday, done 'fartlek '

quickbeam

I'm on the HH plan and still have a second 14m, and a 15m, 16m and 20m to go. The 14m will probably be over the three hours again, and the 15m and 16m will definitely be over the three hours, and the 20m will definitely be over the four hours!!! Still worth me doing it? Personally I think I should. Otherwise I'll be going from a max run of three hours in training to nearly twice that on the day. I'd rather know that I can at least get within 10km of the finishing line before D-Day hits.

skyblue46

Spirogyra wrote: »

Remarkable 'freshness' tonight after 20 miles sunday, done 'fartlek '

Me too! Not that I did Fartlek but that I'm feeling fresh. That should be good but I'm confused. I'm sticking quite diligently to easy and recovery paces but seeing people who were behind me in the 10k running at least a minute per mile faster than me on training runs has me questioning if I'm doing it right. There are too many to explain it away by them treating the 10k as a session.

leesider77

skyblue46 wrote: »

Having viewed Strava I'm still no wiser who WW is!! He's one of 3/4 regular posters I haven't figured out yet..

I'd obviously make a terrible detective as I've yet to figure out who anyone is!

skyblue46

leesider77 wrote: »

I'd obviously make a terrible detective as I've yet to figure out who anyone is!

Worse than terrible! You're on my already worked out list!

AuldManKing

I've given up trying - I cant even figure out what gender some of you are!

AuldManKing

skyblue46 wrote: »

....runs to Strava to see who other than AMK was in the Park tonight!

ah Jaysus......I need to keep a list of who I have on Strava and who is on this form and start pairing up the mileage.

AuldManKing

ariana` wrote: »

Too true, things could change between now and then. This sh*t is getting more real every day :eek:

Spoke to a work colleague and an experienced middle distance & marathon runner. He asked how my training is going and i said i've done 2 x 16m but they brought me quite close to the 3hr mark (2:52 & 2:57 they were both slightly over the 16m). He mentioned and i've heard it on these forums too that going over 3hrs has diminishing returns.

On the Boards plan there are still 1 x 18m, 1 x 19m and 2 x 20.

Roughly
16m @ 10:30 - 2:48
18m @ 10:30 - 3:09
19m @ 10:30 - 3:20
20m @ 10:30 - 3:30

Is 4 runs over the magic 3hr mark a lot to ask my body to recover from in the next few weeks and then to do the marathon itself as well What is the alternative? Should i be doing the boards plan at my kind of paces/level of fitness, was i was over-ambitious taking it on

I need to do some research on this to get it right and might put a feeler out to Testostercone for some help with this.

For now - lets follow the plan as is.

My thoughts would be that if we were setting out a plan so the longest runs would max out at 3 hours, then there would be another longish run on the preceding day to mimic the fatigue effect - but I need to verify that.

As our plan is set out, lets follow it as laid down - it hasn't hurt previous Novices (that I'm aware of )

that means running longer than 3 hours, so prepare for it well.

Baby75

I got out for a run all good 😊 my cold didn't effect me I actually feel better after getting out legs still a little tired after Saturday. I hope strava picked up my run with all the cloud cover it took ages for my watch to work.

I think I figured out a few people from here on strava lol

RolandDeschain

Baby75 wrote: »

I got out for a run all good 😊 my cold didn't effect me I actually feel better after getting out legs still a little tired after Saturday. I hope strava picked up my run with all the cloud cover it took ages for my watch to work.

I think I figured out a few people from here on strava lol

Same as this, I usually feel tired and lacking energy before a run and then when I start I find there is plenty of diesel in the engine. The post run buzz is nice too!

Baby75

RolandDeschain wrote: »

Same as this, I usually feel tired and lacking energy before a run and then when I start I find there is plenty of diesel in the engine. The post run buzz is nice too!

Great for the mind and the body

El Caballo

The 3 hour long run rule does hold water. There is an issue when it comes to novice runners in that regard in that many people who enter the marathon are starting from scratch or a low level of base fitness which is not ideal to be honest but is the way things are so you have to work around these things in that situation.

The reason behind this 3 hour run is that aerobic benefits fall off a cliff around the 2:30-3 hour mark. The goal of the long run is to build aerobic endurance through strengthening of the heart, improving mitochondrial density and building new capillaries all of which help with oxygen transport between the lungs, heart and muscles. With everything else in life, there comes a point of diminishing returns where your body simply can't absorb the training as well anymore and the risks start to outweigh the benefits. Let's look at this way, say you have a runner who is doing their long run at 7 min/mile easy pace for 20 miles, that works out at 2 hours and 20 minutes. Then you have a runner who is doing their long runs at 11 min/mile easy pace for 20 miles, that works out at 3 hours and 40 minutes. Who has the higher intensity here? The person who is running 11 minute miles so effectively the person with the lower level of aerobic fitness has a harder run and thus a higher level of injury risk all other things being equal. That last bit is a little off topic from the OP but just trying to get a point across. The 20 Mile run is one that is steeped in folklore from the days of the 70's and 80's when there really wasn't too many novices running marathons and is something passed down to now even though times have changed.

Many elites will run for 2:30- 3 hours in training but they will cover something close to 30 miles in that time, you might see some sub elites cover 25-26 in training and your 3 hour runner might get 22 down in that time because they still get good benefit up to that point. It has being shown that a 2:30 run will almost give you the same benefits as a 3:45 run but the risk of injury is much greater in the 3:45 run as the muscles/form breaks down and this will generally be a bigger issue for novices as the will generally be structurely weaker than experienced runners. Many novices will be running a harder long run than seriously quick marathon runners and that will cause a double whammy effect because they are aerobically weaker thus won't recover as quickly from a 3 hour run never mind a 4 hour run.

This is the general science to it but obviously there is the psychological benefit of covering a decent chunk of the race distance in training even if physiologically, maybe there isn't much to be gained. There is probably a few counters to this through raising midweek mileage(I cannot state just how important this is to running a good marathon), back to back weekend runs to stimulate fatigue like ultrarunner do and alternating a longish steady run with the long run biweekly would be a few things I think could benefit a novice. It's a tricky one for sure and probably deserves a decent debate on the pros/cons of the current way vs some other approaches that may work.

Damo 2k9

Knee is feeling much better now after a few days of resting it, plan is a bit all over the place this week as I was supposed to get out today for 3m Easy but family from the states meant we were out for dinner all evening, so I reckon ill do 3m easy tomorrow, 6m easy Thursday and Im away the weekend (no running unfortunately) so I reckon ill have to squeeze my LSR in on Friday. Not ideal by any means, but I think ill have to do it!

I was thinking a bit last night, that apart from my knee that hasnt been the best even before I start running, that I would have loved the challenge of the boards plan, even tho im loving HHN1 at the mo! Obviously when starting reading this thread, I didnt have a clue what half the terms meant, but now after loads of reading etc I think I would have liking to try it! Ah well, always next year.

As for Strava, I suppose if ya dont know who I am by now then you may as well give up looking :pac: Apart from Skyblue and 1 or 2 others I dont have a clue who anyone else at all is. Would love to meet up for a run one of the days maybe in the park etc for a boardsies session, I know it was done before for the previous Novice groups! Put some faces to names before the big days if people havent met at races already!

Mrs Mc

If of any help to the novices and no science behind it I'm a novice from 2015 I was aiming for the 4.30 time so my runs did bring me to the 4 hour mark. I think for while I felt it was time on my feet it was also good for my head to know that I could stay on my feet for that time. As they say round these parts trust in the plan and stick to the plan. I followed Dave carries plan from Irish runner magazine which also brings you to 22 miles on your longest run. Again there was a lot of discussion around the benefits of this but for me it's as much a head game thing as anything else as your mind will be tested as much as your body on the day. I'm no expert but I think for novice marathon runners who are building up that base you need to do that 4 hours on your feet. Anyway it stood me well on the day crossing the line at 4.31. Trust in your plan and it will get you there. We are all here to prove it. Good luck in your last few weeks of long runs