DCM 2017 Mentored Novices Thread

ariana`

D3PO wrote: »

well that was a really really bad week.

Monday 11km PMP @ 5.39 Per KM
Tuesday Rest
Wednesday 10km recovery run @ 6.00 Per KM
Thursday Rest
Friday 30km cycle
Saturday Rest
Sunday (Supposed to be a Long run of 16 miles) 8 Miles and had to quit the run. First time in the 10 weeks of training I have quit on a session. My body felt all wrong from the beginning felt lethargic and HR rose rapidly averaged 188 BPM !! on top of this my knee felt quite niggly through the run although this wasnt the reason I binned the run.

It conforms to all the standard symptoms of IT Band Syndrome so not only did I not get my long run in but it looks like I will be sidelines from training for a period of time. After weeks and weeks of really positive progress I feel really deflated about this.

Were into September now and despite really positive times in races ive yet to do beyond 14 miles in training so im really worried that if Im out of action for more than a week or two that the sub 4 hour goal I had might go out the window.

Its unbelievable how many highs and lows I have had during this training process.

I'm sorry you've had a bad week. I'm far from an expert but i did notice that your 'recovery' pace is only 21seconds/km slower than PMP This doesn't seem like much. My PMP (although realitically it's probably too ambitious) is close to yours (5:40-5:50min/km) and my recovery pace is 7:00-7:20 min/km. My easy pace is around 6:30min/km. Is there a chance you're running your easy & recovery paces too fast?

On the positive though 1 missed run in 10 weeks is not a lot. And i wouldn't panic about the knee yet. Could you arrange a physio appointment or even a good deep tissue sports massage? I assume you've been foam rolling? My ITB flares up a bit occasionally but a good sports massage keeps anything more serious at bay. Fingers Xed it's not serious

Damo 2k9

On the look out for a physio to get to this week. I've got a few numbers off people and one of them is actually an osteopath rather then a physiotherapist. I've been reading a bit about the difference between both and now unsure on who to go to, will the outcome be the same?

The osteopath has worked with someone I know when they had knee trouble before a marathon, which is why I'm thinking of going there. This is a bit out of my depth so thought I'd come ask here!!

D3PO

ariana` wrote: »

I'm sorry you've had a bad week. I'm far from an expert but i did notice that your 'recovery' pace is only 21seconds/km slower than PMP This doesn't seem like much. My PMP (although realitically it's probably too ambitious) is close to yours (5:40-5:50min/km) and my recovery pace is 7:00-7:20 min/km. My easy pace is around 6:30min/km. Is there a chance you're running your easy & recovery paces too fast?

On the positive though 1 missed run in 10 weeks is not a lot. And i wouldn't panic about the knee yet. Could you arrange a physio appointment or even a good deep tissue sports massage? I assume you've been foam rolling? My ITB flares up a bit occasionally but a good sports massage keeps anything more serious at bay. Fingers Xed it's not serious

sports massage booked for tomorrow. Hoping its nothing serious. I dont mind missing sessions if they are the midweek ones, life happens after all its just the fact it was the long one.

I might be going too fast for my runs i have slowed them down since the start i just find it really hard to nigh on impossible to run slower than 6 min kms or maybe my pmp is too slow for what im capable of (wishful thinking lol)

anyway either way nothing I can do to alter things until Im fighting fit again which hopefully will be sooner rather than later

Lazare

Reading a lot about sports massage, what type of places are people going to for them and what should I expect to pay?

skyblue46

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

On the look out for a physio to get to this week. I've got a few numbers off people and one of them is actually an osteopath rather then a physiotherapist. I've been reading a bit about the difference between both and now unsure on who to go to, will the outcome be the same?

The osteopath has worked with someone I know when they had knee trouble before a marathon, which is why I'm thinking of going there. This is a bit out of my depth so thought I'd come ask here!!

I'd go to the physio first but that's just the way I rock. I trust more in medical science and training than alternative medicine. I know people have been cured of psoriasis by having cow dung rubbed in their scalp by a farmer in Cavan, people whose warts have vanished after leaving a pin in a hollow in a tombstone in Trim and many have given up fags after hypnosis but I always veer towards the mainstream. Don't get me wrong I'm not putting osteopathy down but it is alternative medicine/ pseudoscience.

Lazare

Best of luck D3PO, rooting for you that everything is alright.

Knowing too that it could just as likely be me, it's such a fear.

D3PO

Lazare wrote: »

Reading a lot about sports massage, what type of places are people going to for them and what should I expect to pay?

Im not sure if I can say where I go in this forum. Not sure the protocol but mine are €65 per session (1 hour)

Lazare

D3PO wrote: »

Im not sure if I can say where I go in this forum. Not sure the protocol but mine are €65 per session (1 hour)

Ah cool, kinda meant what type of place. Are they generally in physio clinics?

clickerquicklic

Lazare wrote: »

Reading a lot about sports massage, what type of places are people going to for them and what should I expect to pay?

I've no idea , personally I've never stretched had a sports massage or foam rolled. If I'm a little sore after a run I just have a nice warm shower some food and go for a light walk .

D3PO

Lazare wrote: »

Ah cool, kinda meant what type of place. Are they generally in physio clinics?

sent you a PM.

But yes your looking at a physio / sports therapist.

ariana`

Lazare wrote: »

Reading a lot about sports massage, what type of places are people going to for them and what should I expect to pay?

My friend does it so i get 'friend's rates' which is €20 for about 1hr 15min. She's not a physio though, she did a courses in Sports Massage and has since done other courses in other areas such as massage for cancer patients and she does voluntary work in that area etc.. She's absolutely brilliant but she is from a very strong sporting background as well so that helps a lot.

I personally would look for a recommendation for that kind of thing, i wouldn't be comfortable going to someone I've plucked from a phone book.

ariana`

muddypaws wrote: »

At the half I did yesterday, they had cola at the water stations, and talking to some runners, they have minerals, like cola or fanta after a run. I used to love coke but have stopped drinking it, any thoughts?

I never liked fizzy drinks even as a kid but i do like the flavour of cola, i like the Kinetica cola flavour gel for example but fizz doesn't agree with me and i certainly can't imagine how it would settle in my stomach during a run :eek: but maybe it's a case of horses for courses or whatever that saying is!!

Why did you stop drinking it? Whatever reason(s) you had are probably still valid

muddypaws

ariana` wrote: »

I never liked fizzy drinks even as a kid but i do like the flavour of cola, i like the Kinetica cola flavour gel for example but fizz doesn't agree with me and i certainly can't imagine how it would settle in my stomach during a run :eek: but maybe it's a case of horses for courses or whatever that saying is!!

Why did you stop drinking it? Whatever reason(s) you had are probably still valid

Yeah, I like the Kinetica gels. Reading up, a lot of runners seem to let it go flat before drinking it.

I stopped because its so bad for you, I love it, but I could feel my teeth rotting when I had some, although a friend said that she thinks that feeling on the teeth is a lovely, fizzy feeling. Its just got too much sugar in it, and diet coke is a waste of time, you might as well drink water.

skyblue46

muddypaws wrote: »

Yeah, I like the Kinetica gels. Reading up, a lot of runners seem to let it go flat before drinking it.

I stopped because its so bad for you, I love it, but I could feel my teeth rotting when I had some, although a friend said that she thinks that feeling on the teeth is a lovely, fizzy feeling. Its just got too much sugar in it, and diet coke is a waste of time, you might as well drink water.

The benefits of using coke (which is boiled beforehand to remove the carbonation) is two fold. As an after event drink it helps restore sugar levels quickly. No need to defizz it for this purpose. For use during an event it has caffeine and carbs. The carb level is a bit higher than can be used efficiently. A half and half mix with something like energise sport gives the ideal level. It's great for cyclists bottles or if you have someone roadside to give you drinks. Now there's something for my 3 sons to do on Marathon day!!!

D3PO

Just to add re sports massage a lot of health insurance plans allow for physio (which this would be constituted as) to be claimed back against. I know my plan entitles me to 50% of the cost back (once you exceed your plans excess) so just worth pointing that out.

Obviously check the details of your own plan and confirm but its something many people might overlook

D3PO

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beakerjoe

Did a nice run of 12.6 miles yesterday. Felt good during but my hip flexor is killing after it. Dont think Ill be doing anything for a few days

Singer

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm thinking about entering and running this 3/4 marathon now straight up at 3.20 marathon pace , would this be a good idea 3 weeks out from marathon ?
I also need to decide on running a 22 mile long run or limiting it to 20 miles , I've 3 more 20 mile runs in plan and 1 22 mile.

Don't do the 3/4 marathon at MP, there are a good few examples of bad DCMs run as a result of doing precisely that. I did it at steady last year, but you could do it a load of other ways (w/u + X @ MP, c/d ) etc. It depends on what else you're doing that week in your "plan"

clickerquicklic

Singer wrote: »

Don't do the 3/4 marathon at MP, there are a good few examples of bad DCMs run as a result of doing precisely that. I did it at steady last year, but you could do it a load of other ways (w/u + X @ MP, c/d ) etc. It depends on what else you're doing that week in your "plan"

Cheers B , just had a look at your run from last year you were really flying if that was a steady run. You must of got injured shortly afer that (i'm sure i can read back your training logs and see exactly what happened) and carried an injury into DCM , that's gutting so close after a serious block of training to pick up an injury.
It's one of them things that can happen us all suddenly though.

If I do the 3/4 marathon i'll take it easy cheers , but i'm going to man up and race the half marathon hard and run the marathon hard in a 3.1X no more 3.30 talk time to man up!

Damo 2k9

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Cheers B , just had a look at your run from last year you were really flying if that was a steady run. You must of got injured shortly afer that (i'm sure i can read back your training logs and see exactly what happened) and carried an injury into DCM , that's gutting so close after a serious block of training to pick up an injury.
It's one of them things that can happen us all suddenly though.

If I do the 3/4 marathon i'll take it easy cheers , but i'm going to man up and race the half marathon hard and run the marathon hard in a 3.1X no more 3.30 talk time to man up!

Thats more like it! :pac:

quickbeam

AuldManKing wrote: »

The general wisdom about a long run or a session is that if you miss it or dont finish it, then write it off.
Doing it midweek will interfere with other runs and leave you more fatigued.

Been thinking about it all day. I'd have been happy enough to let this LSR go if I'd managed last week's, but lettiing go two in a row won't do, especially with a step-back week next week. The 15km done today is a lot closer to the 8m on the plan than it is to the 16m. I might even reduce my 4m to even up the full distance for the week. But I really think I need to give the 16m another shot this week, for the psychological benefit if nothing else. Unless you, or others REALLY think it's a bad idea.

I'm just not sure whether to try it with gels or stick to raisins next time. That will need to be thought long and hard about.

The Muppet

quickbeam wrote: »

AuldManKing wrote: »

The general wisdom about a long run or a session is that if you miss it or dont finish it, then write it off.
Doing it midweek will interfere with other runs and leave you more fatigued.

Been thinking about it all day. I'd have been happy enough to let this LSR go if I'd managed last week's, but lettiing go two in a row won't do, especially with a step-back week next week. The 15km done today is a lot closer to the 8m on the plan than it is to the 16m. I might even reduce my 4m to even up the full distance for the week. But I really think I need to give the 16m another shot this week, for the psychological benefit if nothing else. Unless you, or others REALLY think it's a bad idea.

I'm just not sure whether to try it with gels or stick to raisins next time. That will need to be thought long and hard about.

We were told last year if you miss or don't finish a run to move on with the plan. Stick to the plan was drummed into us so anything veering from that would be alien to me.

That said you do make a valid point if there was a 8 mile run on the plan this week and you use today's run for that and do the lsr on Wednesday thats just like switching days and you may get away with it . BeR in mind you may pay a price for that on next weekends lsr if you havn't, t recovered properly so you will need to be sensible between both lsr's and judge how you feel .

Putting myself in you position I think I'd do what you have in mind , switching days and perhaps miss an easy for a rest day between Wednesday and the weekend .

That's just my opinion , it may not be the right thing to do, your mentors may well have good reason to advise against that .

Re feuling skyblue46 explains how they work ie there is no noticable boost if used propely . You can just keep going when properly fueled

You will need Fuel on the day so It's really important to find some thing which works for you.

If your not hung up on time , walking for a little to eat something more solid than a gel is an option. Banana is great , I tried those fruity breakfast biscuits on my training runs last year . They were grand from a fueling pov but bulky to carry so I didn't go with them on the day.

RolandDeschain

Week 9 report

Didn't feel too tired after the FD10. However, I did end up doing too much mileage due to a mixture of mother nature and pig headedness.

Monday - gym. Probably a bit much and legs were tender for a few days after this.

Tuesday - 5m easy @ 9.08

Wednesday- gym

Thursday - 8m board session. This went really well. I have been doing these at what was my half marathon pace.

Friday - 5m easy @9.09

Saturday - 7m abandoned LSR

Sunday- 19m LSR @9.39.....GREAT run. Last 2 miles I was tired but longest run to date in the bag.

Question about doing an LSR on the course. Does the Strava route planner have audio cues? Because I have no idea of the course I'd need that or Google maps to direct me!

AuldManKing

The Muppet wrote: »

We were told last year if you miss or don't finish a run to move on with the plan. Stick to the plan was drummed into us so anything veering from that would be alien to me.

That said you do make a valid point if there was a 8 mile run on the plan this week and you use today's run for that and do the lsr on Wednesday thats just like switching days and you may get away with it . BeR in mind you may pay a price for that on next weekends lsr if you havn't, t recovered properly so you will need to be sensible between both lsr's and judge how you feel .

Putting myself in you position I think I'd do what you have in mind , switching days and perhaps miss an easy for a rest day between Wednesday and the weekend .

That's just my opinion , it may not be the right thing to do, your mentors may well have good reason to advise against that .

Good points. !

Kellygirl

quickbeam wrote: »

Secondly, am I to assume that gels, or at least this brand of gel aren't for me? Or is there a chance that it was all just an unhappy co-incidence? I knew there were reports of stomach issues for some people using gels, but I didn't know that problems could also occur .... further down ...!

Sorry to hear your run didn't go so well. It could be just the brand of gel - kinetica had that effect on me but High 5 work for me. You could try the Cliff Shot Blocs maybe? Or the Sports Beans (jelly beans). Or maybe it was just a coincidence and not the gel at all. Best of luck and at least it wasn't on the day.

conti

In my marathon training I decide on where I run, how long I run, my running pace, what I fuel with, what I recover with, my between run exercises etc.
The only I can't control are random bouts of insomnia. 2 weeks in a row with no real pattern there has been one night where I'm lying in bed for 5–6 hours, wide awake, tossing and turning.

Does anyone else get this? I can't find any real pattern, e.g. last night was after a rest day, had the same food as the previous day, went to bed at same time etc. Is this the body reacting to over-training or something? I foresee this being detrimental to my training in the long run (figuratively) as extra sleep is necessary for recovery.

The Black Oil

How's your sleep hygiene?

jake1970

clickerquicklic wrote: »

If I do the 3/4 marathon i'll take it easy cheers , but i'm going to man up and race the half marathon hard and run the marathon hard in a 3.1X no more 3.30 talk time to man up!

Last year I done a 20 mile race as a progression run finishing with the last 5 miles at PMP. There are many ways to run 3/4 but running it at MP is not the way.

FWIW I think that you are well capable of a sub 3:20 marathon, your times over the shorter distances certainly suggest that. I was a novice in 2015 and my target was sub 3:20(finished in 3:18:30) and I had nowhere near the speed you have over the shorter distances but my endurance was probably better as I had a lot of miles under my belt. As Singer has already said your endurance might not be a problem going by your last LSR and he also suggested do some slower running every now and then, that is sound advice.

conti

The Black Oil wrote: »

How's your sleep hygiene?

Usually great. I previously had sleep apnoea but running seemed to pretty much cure it. I generally get about 6–7 hours and have upped that to 7–8 as my weekly mileage increases. There are lots of factors to consider I guess, but like last week, I didn't do anything out of the ordinary with regards diet or training. Unless the gradual increase in mileage takes a while to have a sporadic effect?

ariana`

quickbeam wrote: »

Been thinking about it all day. I'd have been happy enough to let this LSR go if I'd managed last week's, but lettiing go two in a row won't do, especially with a step-back week next week. The 15km done today is a lot closer to the 8m on the plan than it is to the 16m. I might even reduce my 4m to even up the full distance for the week. But I really think I need to give the 16m another shot this week, for the psychological benefit if nothing else. Unless you, or others REALLY think it's a bad idea.

I'm just not sure whether to try it with gels or stick to raisins next time. That will need to be thought long and hard about.

How about you try a gel but leave it til later in the run so if it has a negative impact that causes you to stop you will still have a good distance done. So the run is 16m, right, so that's about 26km? So maybe take a gel at 21/22km? You could take some raisins earlier in the run if you feel you need them.

Or alternatively skip the gel and try them on your medium long mid-week run next week instead, and if that's ok then you could use them on the following LSR.

Best of luck with whatever you decide and let us know how you get on