Civil "communion" for 8 year old girl

silverharp

I don't get it and I have kids. short of living on the Aran islands or something kids don't grow up in catholic bubbles by and large. Another thing at least the catholic kids have done the time and had to go to mass every Sunday , you cant just slope in at the end and collect the prizes :pac:

reason vs religion

Such brainless opposition. If you can understand why an atheist parent would celebrate Xmas, you should be able to understand the OP's motivation. If you can't, you're an idiot.

professore

I think at 8 years old a kid is too young (with some exceptions) to properly understand something like a religious ceremony and what it really means. Therefore I don't think it's right to force it upon them at that age. By the same token, I think it's also not fair to exclude them from having some sort of celebration that their friends all have for noble intellectual reasons. You can make these to the kid all you want, but at 8 they are just going along with you for the exact same reasons as the other kids go along with Sister Concepta in the communion preparations.

By all means explain the difference in what they are doing and what the other kids are doing - they may understand some or all of it but don't take it as a given. So I'd be 100% with the OP on this.

silverharp

reason vs religion wrote: »

Such brainless opposition. If you can understand why an atheist parent would celebrate Xmas, you should be able to understand the OP's motivation. If you can't, you're an idiot.

apples and oranges , xmas is part of the western "bubble" an atheist that didn't out of principle celebrate xmas as in decorate the house, give presents to the kids , have nice meal on the 24th/25th would be a right miserable git. 7 or 8 is not a particularly notable age in a kids life.
Plenty of cultures have some kind of coming of age ceremony but its a bit late in the day to start inventing a new one, it would only become commercialised bilge in short order.

Tiddlypeeps

reason vs religion wrote: »

Such brainless opposition. If you can understand why an atheist parent would celebrate Xmas, you should be able to understand the OP's motivation. If you can't, you're an idiot.

I don't agree with the opposition either, but typically "I'm right and if you think I'm wrong you're an idiot" isn't exactly a compelling argument.

smacl

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The kids are into the sense of occasion, seeing their wider family come together, the excitement of it, and being the centre of attention.

Not convinced, according to my two the main topic of conversation for most kids after these events seems to be the amount of loot gathered. Pretty much the same for Christmas, Halloween and Easter.

ABC101

smacl wrote: »

Not convinced, according to my two the main topic of conversation for most kids after these events seems to be the amount of loot gathered. Pretty much the same for Christmas, Halloween and Easter.

A unfortunate choice of words, but it did give me a chuckle!:pac:

Tiddlypeeps

silverharp wrote: »

Plenty of cultures have some kind of coming of age ceremony but its a bit late in the day to start inventing a new one.

Why do you get to make that decision on behalf of others?

Tombo2001

smacl wrote: »

Not convinced, according to my two the main topic of conversation for most kids after these events seems to be the amount of loot gathered. Pretty much the same for Christmas, Halloween and Easter.

Well if you have that view, then next Halloween, don't get them to dress up, don't get them to knock door to door with all their friends; give them a big plastic bag full of sweets and sure hey presto it will be a great occasion, that is not in anyway different to any other time they get a big bag of sweets.

Loveinapril

I grew up in a minority religion in Ireland in the 80's and 90's (Catholic schools) and didn't make my communion or conformation. It was simply explained to me that our family didn't do X or Y because that was what Catholics did and we were not catholics. It made sense to me as I understood that different families do different things. It really isn't as traumatic an experience as people make out. My husband's 9 year old neice recently asked us who will be godparents to our unborn baby. I said "noone. The baby won't have godparents. That is for people who go to church and we don't go to church". Simple, no confusion and no further questions (I didn't want to get into the atheist thing with her then). Kids are as open and as thoughtful as they are allowed to be. My religious mother-in-law looked like she was going to burst into flames when I said it, which amused me!

ABC101

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Well if you have that view, then next Halloween, don't get them to dress up, don't get them to knock door to door with all their friends; give them a big plastic bag full of sweets and sure hey presto it will be a great occasion, that is not in anyway different to any other time they get a big bag of sweets.

I remember one time I got caught out. The doorbell rang at around 7;30pm.

I only had one large bar of chocolate left. On opening the door there was a gang of 6 kids present.

I foolishly give the bar of chocolate to one of them and a mini riot started, almost turned into a free for all, with arms and hands everywhere all wrestling for the dairy milk bar.

I had to tell them to all calm down by raising my voice. On realising there was nothing more to be had as I was spent, they all bailed it asap to the next house to load up on more junk etc.

Lesson learnt, don't open the door unless one has lots of junk to dispense.

daheff

dubrov wrote: »

I think you have got this backward. There is a human desire to mark important life events (birth, childhood to adulthood, marriage, death) with a rite of passage. Religions just cater to that need.

People don't celebrate these events because of religions, religions celebrate these events because of people.

but marriage is a religious event. Its not a life event like birth/death. Its a man made thing.

dubrov wrote: »

I
Just because the OP doesn't believe in the religion it does not mean that the desire to celebrate this life stage has gone away.

What is the life stage to be celebrated?

professore wrote: »

Your two girls "don't get" their little friends talking for months beforehand about the "big day", and how much money they are going to make, then flashing the cash afterwards? Maybe your kids are unlike any kids I've ever seen. Genuinely curious.

Mine is making it in about a week...apart from talking about all the practice she is doing there are no other discussions in my house. We aren't making a big deal about it..so she isnt either.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Pretty much every culture that has ever existed has various ways of celebrating various times of the year and various milestones within a persons life, such as
harvest time, midwinter, birth, coming of age, a couple joining and likely starting a family etc etc etc. Most cultures link these celebrations in some way to their various religions but not always.

Again what is teh life event /milestone thats being celebrated here?

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Just because a person distances themselves from the religious elements of the culture they belong to doesn't mean they necessarily want to distance themselves from the celebrations associated with that culture. I don't see how wanting to take part in those celebrations is at all hypocritical.

But marriage /communion are religious. These do not exist without religion.

smacl

professore wrote: »

Your two girls "don't get" their little friends talking for months beforehand about the "big day", and how much money they are going to make, then flashing the cash afterwards? Really? Or are they home schooled, or go to some athiest school (if such a thing exists ... my kids went to an Educate Together and even there the majority of kids did all the catholic religious ceremonies?) Maybe your kids are unlike any kids I've ever seen. Genuinely curious.

Nope. Also educate together, about half the kids did communion and the remainder didn't take too much heed of it. The communion kids also had to do extra curricular communion classes which was a big negative. Eldest is unusual in that she has never taken much interest in cash, youngest is a greedy little wench to be fair but wouldn't put up with that nonsense no matter how much you bankrolled her. Also, a wedge of cash versus seeing one of your music idols live on stage is a no-brainer, and IMHO far healthier.

ABC101

daheff wrote: »

but marriage is a religious event. Its not a life event like birth/death. Its a man made thing.

What is the life stage to be celebrated?

Mine is making it in about a week...apart from talking about all the practice she is doing there are no other discussions in my house. We aren't making a big deal about it..so she isnt either.

Again what is teh life event /milestone thats being celebrated here?


But marriage /communion are religious. These do not exist without religion.

WRT marriage I think I am going off track here. But my understanding is that Marriage is a civil contract which existed long before organised religion.

It's something which appears to be part of human nature, and no religion has a special claim on it.

Numerous religions have incorporated religious ceremonies around a marriage, but marriage does not originate from any one particular religion.

reason vs religion

silverharp wrote: »

apples and oranges , xmas is part of the western "bubble" an atheist that didn't out of principle celebrate xmas as in decorate the house, give presents to the kids , have nice meal on the 24th/25th would be a right miserable git. 7 or 8 is not a particularly notable age in a kids life.
Plenty of cultures have some kind of coming of age ceremony but its a bit late in the day to start inventing a new one, it would only become commercialised bilge in short order.

I'm not even sure why I'm responding to your illiterate inanities. Clearly, Westerns celebrate Xmas because not to do so would exclude themselves from a shared national culture; not because non-celebration is in some way intrinsically miserable - tell that to a Muslim. Within a local community, a communion can be just as significant, arguably more so. Hours of class are dedicated to preparation over several preceding months. Usually all the family and close friends are invited. Etc, etc.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't agree with the opposition either, but typically "I'm right and if you think I'm wrong you're an idiot" isn't exactly a compelling argument.

If I call a racist a bigot, they might respond likewise by saying, That's not a very convincing argument ("nah nah nahh nahh nah"). My response, as with here, would be: it's not intended to be an argument. It's very much meant as an insult. You might have noticed, however, that the first sentence is a legitimate argument by analogy.

professore

smacl wrote: »

Also, a wedge of cash versus seeing one of your music idols live on stage is a no-brainer, and IMHO far healthier.

Ahhaha bribery I see :D:D

Triceratops Ballet

daheff wrote: »

but marriage is a religious event. Its not a life event like birth/death. Its a man made thing.

But marriage /communion are religious. These do not exist without religion.

of course they do, marriage was about commerce, status and power long before religion came along. Second richest man in village wants to climb the ladder, hands his daughter over to the son of the richest man in village, their marriage cements his status!
Religions come along, look at what people do and then put a spin on it!

silverharp

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Why do you get to make that decision on behalf of others?

?? my guess is creating a collective artificial replacement coming of age tradition wouldn't fly , im not making any decision for anybody, everyone is free to make up their own family traditions, they just wouldn't have the neighbours congratulating you in the street. In the US outside of religious events the 16th Birthday is the big thing. In Ireland you have the Debs and 21st. So there are already marking stages for older kids/young adults.
All I was suggesting was there is a kind of a gap in the 12-13 age bracket where Christians have confirmation, Jews have bar mitzvah etc., the only big deal is starting secondary but I don't remember any celebrations

Chester Copperpot

Blow communion out of the water by heading to Disney land

professore

Loveinapril wrote: »

I grew up in a minority religion in Ireland in the 80's and 90's (Catholic schools) and didn't make my communion or conformation. It was simply explained to me that our family didn't do X or Y because that was what Catholics did and we were not catholics. It made sense to me as I understood that different families do different things. It really isn't as traumatic an experience as people make out. My husband's 9 year old neice recently asked us who will be godparents to our unborn baby. I said "noone. The baby won't have godparents. That is for people who go to church and we don't go to church". Simple, no confusion and no further questions (I didn't want to get into the atheist thing with her then). Kids are as open and as thoughtful as they are allowed to be. My religious mother-in-law looked like she was going to burst into flames when I said it, which amused me!

The part in bold is the difference. Atheism isn't a religion, for me at least, in that there is a dogma to be followed and a sense of "us" and "them" as you get in most religions, particularly minority religions in Ireland. It's not a badge of identity in the same way being a member of a minority religion is. There is no "community of athiests" where we all meet and agree with each other on every topic - if there were, I would run a mile from it. Not trying to attack minority religions BTW ... anyone can believe whatever they want, it's all fine by me, as long as it doesn't force me to believe in it too or follow it's rules.

smacl

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Well if you have that view, then next Halloween, don't get them to dress up, don't get them to knock door to door with all their friends; give them a big plastic bag full of sweets and sure hey presto it will be a great occasion, that is not in anyway different to any other time they get a big bag of sweets.

To be fair Halloween is very different and probably a bad example, but emptying the large sack of goodies onto the floor and counting the spoils is certainly a big part of it. Dressing up in weird and wonderful outfits and going out in the dark to collect said goodies is also huge too. Getting them dressed up is fun too!

silverharp

reason vs religion wrote: »

I'm not even sure why I'm responding to your illiterate inanities. Clearly, Westerns celebrate Xmas because not to do so would exclude themselves from a shared national culture; not because non-celebration is in some way intrinsically miserable - tell that to a Muslim. Within a local community, a communion can be just as significant, arguably more so. Hours of class are dedicated to preparation over several preceding months. Usually all the family and close friends are invited. Etc, etc.




If I call a racist a bigot, they might respond likewise by saying, That's not a very convincing argument ("nah nah nahh nahh nah"). My response, as with here, would be: it's not intended to be an argument. It's very much meant as an insult. You might have noticed, however, that the first sentence is a legitimate argument by analogy.

I don't know either, I stopped reading after your first sentence. What happened this forum, it used to be so polite ill throw you on ignore

smacl

professore wrote: »

Ahhaha bribery I see :D:D

Pretty much, though gotta say I enjoyed Lily Allen on stage myself and all the more for having the kids there too.

Tombo2001

Poor old OP.

Life lesson.

There are lots of people out there who like to cast judgement.

There are not many people out there with ideas for a good party for a kid.

Might be time for a new thread.

professore

silverharp wrote: »

?? my guess is creating a collective artificial replacement coming of age tradition wouldn't fly , im not making any decision for anybody, everyone is free to make up their own family traditions, they just wouldn't have the neighbours congratulating you in the street. In the US outside of religious events the 16th Birthday is the big thing. In Ireland you have the Debs and 21st. So there are already marking stages for older kids/young adults.
All I was suggesting was there is a kind of a gap in the 12-13 age bracket where Christians have confirmation, Jews have bar mitzvah etc., the only big deal is starting secondary but I don't remember any celebrations

You clearly don't have a 16 year old daughter yet!!!! It's a big thing here too now!!!!

silverharp

professore wrote: »

You clearly don't have a 16 year old daughter yet!!!! It's a big thing here too now!!!!

ah jaysus for realz , I was just starting to enjoy the wind down of the bouncy castle phase

professore

reason vs religion wrote: »

I'm not even sure why I'm responding to your illiterate inanities. Clearly, Westerns celebrate Xmas because not to do so would exclude themselves from a shared national culture; not because non-celebration is in some way intrinsically miserable - tell that to a Muslim. Within a local community, a communion can be just as significant, arguably more so. Hours of class are dedicated to preparation over several preceding months. Usually all the family and close friends are invited. Etc, etc.




If I call a racist a bigot, they might respond likewise by saying, That's not a very convincing argument ("nah nah nahh nahh nah"). My response, as with here, would be: it's not intended to be an argument. It's very much meant as an insult. You might have noticed, however, that the first sentence is a legitimate argument by analogy.

Holy moly ... If you want honesty, you sir (or madam) are a pompous ass.

vrt12

I plan on doing something with my kids. It won't be a ceremony or a coming of age or anything like that. It will purely be for my own satisfaction having stuck it to the man and succeeded. I plan on spoiling them for a day. Dinner out, movie, a toy...something along those lines. It will be purely the missus, myself and the kids and the kids will have no idea why we are doing it. I want to celebrate it at a time when the brain washing would normally have been cranked up to the max. My kids are not making their communion. To me it's worth celebrating.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

smacl

ABC101 wrote: »

A unfortunate choice of words, but it did give me a chuckle!:pac:

I'm doubtless having a senior moment here, but why so?