Proposal to Restructure the All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship

mountgomery burns

Don't think it will get passed but at least it opens discussion.

PTH2009

my idea

If only we could run the provincial championships sepretly and use the 2018-20 structure but have an open draw

Group A
1 Munster Team
2 Leinster Team
3 Munster Team
4 Leinster Team
5 Munster or Leinster Team

Group B
1 Munster Team
2 Leinster Team
3 Munster Team
4 Leinster Team
5 Munster or Leinster team

Top 2 in each group into semi finals and 2nd vs 3rd in each group QFs. 5th vs 5th in each group loser has to enter the qualifers group the next year

or even tie in standalone provincial championships (5x teams in Munster and Leinster)

Group A
1 Munster Champions
2 Leinster Runners up
3 Beaten Munster Semi Finalist
4 Beaten Leinster Semi Finalist
5 Beaten Leinster QFs

Group B
1 Leinster Champions
2 Munster Runners up
3 Beaten Munster Semi Finalist
4 Beaten Leinster Semi Finalist
5 Beaten Munster QFs

Top 2 in each group into semi finals and 2nd vs 3rd in each group QFs. 5th vs 5th in each group loser has to enter the qualifers group the next year

Hammer Archer

When will this be voted on? Hopefully it's defeated.

Hammer Archer

Another baffling proposal is putting Sligo in next year's Nicky Rackard Cup and only promoting the winner of this weekend's Lory Meagher final between Leitrim and Warwickshire. Sligo only came third in the Lory Meagher while Warwickshire and Leitrim came first and second respectively.

They seem to have treated the lower tier competitions as an afterthought yet again.

Martin Ennis, the Meath manager, isn't happy according to this article.

PTH2009

GPA proposals for the 2018-20 structure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gpa-suggest-six-amendments-to-gaas-hurling-championship-proposals-2018-2020-797944.html

Liam Mccarthy Cup
2 groups of 5
Munster (Cork, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Tipp :eek::eek:)
Leinster (Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford)

Prov qualifer group- Laois, Westmeath, Kerry, Carlow, Meath and Antrim

All teams play each other once (home or away) not sure how there going to divide it up

Top 2 in each group will contest the Provincial final with the winner qualifying for the All Ireland semi finals. Teams who finish 4th and 5th in the groups are eliminated

2nd Round
3rd in Munster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner
3rd in Leinster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner

Quarter Finals
Leinster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner
Munster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner

Semi finals
Leinster Champion vs QF Winner
Munster Champion vs QF Winner

I do like the system but think its a bit unfair for the Munster teams as its very compeitive where in the Leinster group Offaly and possibly Dublin will be walkovers for Galway/Kilkenny and Wexford. Galway and Kilkenny are guaranteed a top 3 finish every year where 2 top quality munster teams will be gone early

danganabu

PTH2009 wrote: »

I do like the system but think its a bit unfair for the Munster teams as its very compeitive where in the Leinster group Offaly and possibly Dublin will be walkovers for Galway/Kilkenny and Wexford. Galway and Kilkenny are guaranteed a top 3 finish every year where 2 top quality munster teams will be gone early

But shur how is that any different to the current structure?

awec

What's the issue with the current format?

PTH2009

awec wrote: »

What's the issue with the current format?

Not getting enough games

Bonniedog

PTH2009 wrote: »

Not getting enough games

There's plenty of games. Leinster round robin is a bit of a farce to decide which team gets a hiding.

Fact is that there are never more than 4/5 teams with remotely realistic chance of winning AI, and it will never be any different. Having said that, this year seems competitive but it is basically next year's 1A with exception of Galway.

The group qualifiers a few years ago gave even bad teams 5/6 games, which often amounted to 5/6 absolute thrashings! What is point in that?

LeinsterDub

Nothing say clear and understandable structure like a 7 page pdf

PTH2009

Bonniedog wrote: »

There's plenty of games. Leinster round robin is a bit of a farce to decide which team gets a hiding.

Fact is that there are never more than 4/5 teams with remotely realistic chance of winning AI, and it will never be any different. Having said that, this year seems competitive but it is basically next year's 1A with exception of Galway.

The group qualifiers a few years ago gave even bad teams 5/6 games, which often amounted to 5/6 absolute thrashings! What is point in that?

the whole restrcutuing idea came about after the super 8 football structure for 2018 was approved. The Hurling people felt overlooked cause there will be so many football games next year

The football championship next year will feel like its going on forever

KevIRL

danganabu wrote: »

But shur how is that any different to the current structure?

The current system compensates somewhat for any weakness in either province by drawing Munster v Leinster teams against each other in the first round of the qualifiers

awec

PTH2009 wrote: »

GPA proposals for the 2018-20 structure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gpa-suggest-six-amendments-to-gaas-hurling-championship-proposals-2018-2020-797944.html

Liam Mccarthy Cup
2 groups of 5
Munster (Cork, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Tipp :eek::eek:)
Leinster (Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford)

Prov qualifer group- Laois, Westmeath, Kerry, Carlow, Meath and Antrim

All teams play each other once (home or away) not sure how there going to divide it up

Top 2 in each group will contest the Provincial final with the winner qualifying for the All Ireland semi finals. Teams who finish 4th and 5th in the groups are eliminated

2nd Round
3rd in Munster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner
3rd in Leinster Group vs Prov Qualifer group winner

Quarter Finals
Leinster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner
Munster Final runner up vs 2nd Round winner

Semi finals
Leinster Champion vs QF Winner
Munster Champion vs QF Winner

I do like the system but think its a bit unfair for the Munster teams as its very compeitive where in the Leinster group Offaly and possibly Dublin will be walkovers for Galway/Kilkenny and Wexford. Galway and Kilkenny are guaranteed a top 3 finish every year where 2 top quality munster teams will be gone early

Did you typo this bit or does the prov group winner actually have 2 games?

PTH2009

awec wrote: »

Did you typo this bit or does the prov group winner actually have 2 games?

Typo

AFAIK The top 2 from the qualifier group qualify, I think who ever finishes top qualifers for the Leinster group in 2019 and 2nd place only get a reward of playing in the 2nd round

'Two teams from the Provincial Qualifier Group progress to play the 3rd placed teams from the Leinster and Munster Round Robin (RR) Groups, providing an extra game for another county and rectifying imbalance between the Leinster and Munster RR Groups

danganabu

PTH2009 wrote: »

the whole restrcutuing idea came about after the super 8 football structure for 2018 was approved. The Hurling people felt overlooked cause there will be so many football games next year

The football championship next year will feel like its going on forever

There is a certain level of kneejerk reaction to the super 8 but to be fair this is what the players have been crying out for years for - more championship games.

It's tricky for a number of reasons and there really is no quick fix that will satisfy everyone for a number of reasons ;

• There are very few teams so more games means repeat fixtures
• More games means less time for club fixtures
• The provincial championships will want to remain an integral part of any re-structuring

So all those restraints and obstacles considered it's actually not a bad proposal and I would be tentatively in favour on say a two or three year trial basis.

randd1

I would restructure the whole hurling calendar if I could and go with this.

-Provincial Championships would be part of a separate Cup competition run alongside the National League, alternating weekly between League and Cup. Open Draw for the Provinces. All games finish on the day, extra time and 1v1 penalties to decide games if necessary.

-National Hurling League Structure – Three 8 Team Leagues (Division 4A is 6 Teams, play each other once, 4B is 4 teams, play each other twice), 2 up, 2 down for each Division. No final, top team are league champions.

-All-Ireland Championships would be group based, and based around the final rankings of the National League.

Liam McCarthy Cup -
- 12 teams (all 8 teams from Division 1, and top four sides of Division 2), split into 3 groups of 4.
- Seeding for group draws would be; Pot1 (1, 2 & 3 of Division 1), Pot2 (4, 5 & 6 of Division 1) and Pot3 (7 & 8 of Division 1 and 1, 2 , 3 & 4 of Division 2).
- Three games for each county, 1 home, 1 away, 1 neutral venue.
- Top of each group and best placed second go into Pot1 of QF draw.
- Remaining two second placed sides and two best placed third sides into Pot2 of QF Draw.
- Pot1 drawn against Pot2 in All-Ireland QF.
- All knockout games finish on the day, except for AI Final.

Christy Ring Cup -
- 8 Teams (bottom 4 teams of Division 2, top four sides of Division 3), split into two groups of four.
- Seeding for the groups would be; Pot1 (5, 6 & 7 of Division 2, and Division 3 top side (reward for promotion)) and Pot2 (Division 2 bottom side, and 2, 3 7 4 of Division 3).
- Top side plays second of opposite Group in SF.

Nicky Rackard Cup -
- 8 Teams (bottom 4 teams of Division 3, top four sides of Division 4A), split into two groups of four.
- Seeding for the groups would be; Pot1 (5, 6 & 7 of Division 3, and Division 4A top side (reward for promotion)) and Pot2 (Division 3 bottom side, and 2, 3 & 4 of Division 4A).
- Top side plays second of opposite Group in SF.

Lory Meagher Cup –
- 6 Teams (bottom 2 teams from 4A, all four 4B teams), split into two groups of three.
- Top side in each group would play each other in final.

The reason for the National League and Cup being played in the first half of the year, and the group based championship in the second half of the year would be to have a definite calendar structure to allow for club games. Hypothetically if it were to be applied to next year, here’s how the structure would look in the calendar year (dates are Sunday’s but denotes the weekend as a whole);

04/2/18 – NHL Round 1
11/2/18 – NHL Round 2
18/2/18 – NHL Round 3
25/2/18 – Cup Provincial QF’s
04/3/18 – NHL Round 4
11/3/18 – Cup Provincial SF’s
18/3/18 – NHL Round 5
25/3/18 – Cup Provincial Finals
01/4/18 – NHL Round 6
08/4/18 – Cup SF’s
15/4/18 – NHL Round 7
22/4/18 – Cup Final
29/4/18 – Rest Week
06/5/18 – Club Week
13/5/18 – Rest Week
20/5/18 – Championship Group Phase Round 1
27/5/18 – Club Week
03/6/18 – Rest Week
10/6/18 – Championship Group Phase Round 2
17/6/18 – Club Week
24/6/18 – Rest Week
01/7/18 – Championship Group Phase Round 3
08/7/18 – Club Week
15/7/18 – Rest Week
22/7/18 – All-Ireland QF’s (2 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday) – Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard SF’s – Lory Meagher Final
29/7/18 – Club Week
05/8/18 – Rest Week
12/8/18 – All-Ireland SF’s (1 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday) - Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard Finals
19/8/18 – Club Week
26/8/18 – Rest Week
02/9/18 – Rest Week
09/9/18 – All-Ireland Final

All four AIQF’s would take place on the same weekend, as would both AISF’s take place on the same weekend, to give all teams an even run at matches. The Saturday QF winners would play the Sunday SF, and vice versa.
Christy Ring & Nicky Rackard Finals to be played the same day as the SF’s as curtain raisers.

Pro’s –
- Even structure throughout the year for counties, so no major difference in gaps between matches for competing teams as they would have the same wait period from the previous round, regardless of competition.
-Every team gets a minimum three championship games a year.
- In the championship, in order to progress to the QF’s you would most likely have to three points from a possible six, meaning every game is vital.
- For the lesser lights, the chance to play McCarthy Cup is earned in your league performances against sides of your own level, and is the case every year.
- Three National titles available.
- Six weekends set aside for clubs every three weeks
- Rest Weeks set aside for the players.
- There’s a minimum of 6 games to play to win the All-Ireland.
- For the championship games, there’s at least three weeks between matches so as to allow fans get money together.
- The league becomes more relevant.
- The provincial championships remain.
- Games to training ratio for players comes very much down.
- The number of Championship games goes from 21 under current structure to 25

Cons –
- More matches means more expense on fans (though with a set structure for league and championship, attendance packages become a serious option)
- Though the provincial championships remain, they are relegated to another competition, and played during the Spring.
- More games means possibly more drain on players.
- Two QF’s and one SF on a Saturday.
- Provincial Finals in the Cup would be on the same weekend.

Overall, I reckon it’s a good structure that’s fair and even to every team, one that rewards performance in the national and group stages of the competition, and most importantly, sets aside time for the clubs.

PTH2009

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0725/892861-cpa-unveil-proposals-for-protection-of-club-games/

so if gets the go ahead will the calender look like this

Jan- Pre Season Tournaments
Feb- NFL and NHL
Mar- NFL and NHL (Finals the last 2 weeks)
Apr- Clubs
May- Prov Championships/All Ire Quals
June-Prov Championships/All Ire Quals
July- Football Super 8 and Semi Finals, Hurling QFs,Semis
Aug- All Ireland Finals/Clubs
Sep- Clubs
Oct- Clubs/Prov Club Championships
Nov- All Ireland Clubs Semi finals and Final
Dec- Closed Month

its going too take a while too get used to games being on earlier in the year, imo it will take the buzz out of it a bit and slow up the summer. Teams could be out of the All Ireland Championships by May. Im not affiated with any clubs in Waterford and not a regular attender of club games. For weekend workers it cause problems getting time off in the middle of summer for games. Guess we just have too wait and see

One thing i would like is run the NFL and NHL on the same weekends and have a few double headers each weekend. Id start the league in the middle of Jan and scrap the pre season tournaments

2018 season
Sat 20/21 Jan- NFL and NHL Rounds 1
Sat 27/28 Jan- NFL and NHL Rounds 2
Sat 3rd/Sun 4th Feb- NFL and NHL Rounds 3
Sat 10/Sun 11th Feb- NFL and NHL Rounds 4
Sat 17/Sun 18th Feb- NFL and NHL Rounds 5
Sat 3/Sun 4th Mar- NFL Round 6 and NHL QFS/Relagation playoffs
Sat 10/Sun 11th Mar- NFL Round 7 and NHL Semi Finals
Sat 17th Mar- NFL Div 3 and 4 Finals (Croke Park 3pm/5pm )
Sun 18th Mar- NHL Div 2 NHL Div 1 Finals (4pm/6pm Thurles or PUC)
Mon 19th Mar (Paddys Weekend BH)- NFL Div 1 and 2 finals (2pm/4pm Croke Park)

danganabu

PTH2009 wrote: »

Im not affiated with any clubs in Waterford and not a regular attender of club games.

Not having a go or anything but this is something I simply can't get my head around

Would this be common in other counties, I have to say I've never come across it in Tipp?

PTH2009

danganabu wrote: »

Not having a go or anything but this is something I simply can't get my head around

Would this be common in other counties, I have to say I've never come across it in Tipp?

A reason for strong club support in places like Tipp and such is there are a lot of towns/parishes and no big city areas like in Waterford/Cork/Galway etc. Community Spirit is huge and people living in the cities would have other things on before attending club games, in towns the GAA club is a huge thing and almost all the town would go too the games

cant ever see a non final club game in Waterford selling out Walsh Park or Fraher Field, intercounty support is strong here (as in other counties)

PTH2009

Summer is going to be very long with the new calender coming in next year. Its going to take time to get used too.