Landlord Called Today (to tell us she's selling and we're out)

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Hello, I'm hoping somebody could help clarify our legal rights. We've been living in our property for five years and our landlord got divorced so one year ago the property was turned over to his ex-wife. She called today to tell us she'll be selling, but doesn't know when; apparently she's going to speak to the auctioneer during the week but said she wants a quick sale.

I've done some research and I've found that this entitles us to three more months here to move out from the date on the written notice she provides. However, Threshold, RTB and Citizens' Information also say that we have to give eight weeks notice if we want to move out. We're looking at properties which are available next month and want to get out of here as soon as possible to just get on with our lives. Will we have to pay rent for the next two months or can we just move as soon as possible, seeing as she told us we're gonna have to go anyway?

Just a point of information as well - she wouldn't renew the contract we had with her husband because she was constantly intending to put up the rent so we're basically in limbo in terms of our lease. I'm not sure if that's important or relevant in this situation.

Any help would be unbelievably appreciated. We're so upset that we're losing this place which has become such a wonderful home over the last half a decade. Our poor little cat and bunnies will have to get used to some other place and I'll have to pot my entire vegetable garden and transport it to where ever we end up - I don't even know if we'll get a place that has a yard or gets any sun so I may just have to give everything away (not hugely relevant but I'm sad about it). We really just want to try and get this over with as soon as conceivably possible.

Tigger

You will get loads of info here about rights and stuff but I'd just like to say I'm saddened that you have this to go through and I hope you and your family are ok.

dennyk

If you've been there over 5 years but less than 6, the landlord must provide you with proper notice of her intent to terminate the tenancy in order to sell at least 20 weeks in advance (and this must be in writing and follow certain standards as defined by the RTB; a phone call doesn't count). You would need to provide 12 weeks notice to terminate the tenancy from your side. However, you and the landlord can agree on a shorter notice period at the time the termination notice is given by either of you, if you wish, so if you do want to leave before that time, your best bet would be to discuss it with your landlord and see if she would be willing to work with you on the timing of the end of your tenancy. It may be to her advantage to allow it as well, since it means the property will be vacant and ready for possession sooner if she is hoping for a quick sale.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

You will get loads of info here about rights and stuff but I'd just like to say I'm saddened that you have this to go through and I hope you and your family are ok.

Genuinely, thank you for your kind words. After a particularly stressful day at work, I listened to her crying on the phone today for a good half an hour as she was telling me of her circumstances RE family, health and general life story which led to this decision. It is hard to be hugely sympathetic as she started her reign over us by threatening rent increases and wouldn't accept a bank transfer but then would only call to collect the rent when she knew we were at work. In many ways, I feel very sorry for her but I'm exhausted from dealing with her and just can't wait to be free of her now.

If you've been there over 5 years but less than 6, the landlord must provide you with proper notice of her intent to terminate the tenancy in order to sell at least 20 weeks in advance (and this must be in writing and follow certain standards as defined by the RTB; a phone call doesn't count).

That's good to know, I had read this but hadn't applied it to our situation as we took it for granted that we'd be getting evicted and started looking for places this evening. It will come in handy knowing this if the rental market proves as sparse as the media portrays.

You would need to provide 12 weeks notice to terminate the tenancy from your side. However, you and the landlord can agree on a shorter notice period at the time the termination notice is given by either of you, if you wish, so if you do want to leave before that time, your best bet would be to discuss it with your landlord and see if she would be willing to work with you on the timing of the end of your tenancy. It may be to her advantage to allow it as well, since it means the property will be vacant and ready for possession sooner if she is hoping for a quick sale.

I'm hoping we'll be able to reach this amiable compromise, but guessing that she'll want to bleed us dry before we go seeing as she won't be able to find tenants for the three months of the summer. We're viewing a few places tomorrow and one in particular looks excellent but we'll have to move in June and I'd say she definitely won't consent to us staying for just one more month when I don't think she's even met the property agent yet...

Maybe you're right though... I hope you're right! Legally speaking, we don't seem to have any recourse if she isn't willing to let us go before August

the_syco

Zain Numerous Velvet wrote: »

Legally speaking, we don't seem to have any recourse if she isn't willing to let us go before August

Check if she has your deposit, as that's pretty much her only hold over you.

Check if her ex will give you a nice reference; he may if it'll screw her over :P

andekwarhola

the_syco wrote: »

Check if she has your deposit, as that's pretty much her only hold over you.

Every sympathy for the OP and hopefully they can reach a compromise with the landlord but you'd wonder why anybody would be a landlord in this country.

If you expect your tenant to adhere to the minimum period of notice, you're 'bleeding them dry' and see advice like the quote above but woe betide you if you don't extend the full notice period to your tenants.

Ms Doubtfire1

Also check if the tenancy is registered - if she didn't accept bank transfer there's usually a reason for this.Did she ever give you a receipt/rent book?

Mr. Incognito

1. She is not your landlord. Her Husband is.

2. Verbal Notice is no notice. She would have to satisfy you that she is the legal owner and only then can she serve a Notice, in writing that conforms with the Residential tenancies Act. If it does not comply the tenant can take an action to the PRTB to have it set aside even if the lease is not registered. The Tenant has a right of audience if it is not registered but the landlord cannot take a complaint to the PRTB unless the tenancy is registered.

3. You do not need a written lease for their to be a Part 4 Tenancy once you are there 6 months or longer.

4. She cannot increase the rent more than 4% if you are in a rent pressure zone. This is mainly the urban centres in Ireland. Ourside of this rent can only be increased once every two years.

5. It is very very very difficult to evict someone legally. Selling the property is one of the exceptions pursuant to Section 34 of the Act but she has to provide you with the correct Notice of Termination.

Lots of info here; https://www.rtb.ie/tenants

Gumbo

You both have to give minimum notice, but, if you can both agree on a shorter time frame then that's ok.
Explain that you can be gone in a month if she agrees and this will free the house up sooner for a sale.

Fian

She would be crazy not to accept your leaving without the requisite notice. I imagine she will be delighted to just get vacant possession.

Mr. Incognito

Are you in a position to buy the house? She wants a quick sale and that may be as quick a sale as she will get.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

1. She is not your landlord. Her Husband is.

If it's her property she is now the LL.

SterlingArcher

Barbara Victorious Lyrics wrote: »

Are you in a position to buy the house? She wants a quick sale and that may be as quick a sale as she will get.



If it's her property she is now the LL.

Nox I think you are missing the point. So I'll fill you in when I come around to collect the rent you owe me.

SterlingArcher

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Nox I think you are missing the point. So I'll fill you in when I come around to collect the rent you owe me.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here?

Michael D Not Higgins

If the landlord wants a quick sell, they should be amiable to a shorter notice period. Any works to be done and viewings are much easier without having to negotiate access with sitting tenants, so a landlord who genuinely wants to sell would be willing to accept a mutually beneficial leaving date (the legislation allows for shorter notice periods by mutual consent).

OP I suggest you present these positives to your landlord and when you find a suitable place line up the moving out/in days with the landlord's consent.

spaceHopper

Can you buy it?

pilly

andekwarhola wrote: »

Every sympathy for the OP and hopefully they can reach a compromise with the landlord but you'd wonder why anybody would be a landlord in this country.

If you expect your tenant to adhere to the minimum period of notice, you're 'bleeding them dry' and see advice like the quote above but woe betide you if you don't extend the full notice period to your tenants.

Totally agree, it's forever one sided. My last tenants asked me if they could stay longer to find somewhere and I agreed as long as they gave 30 days notice.

They then complained that the 30 days notice was stopping them finding somewhere.

It works both ways OP. If you're expecting the LL to give you all your legally required notice then why shouldn't you have to do the same?

If you can come to an amicable agreement that's fine but I don't get this whole fcuk the LL attitude.

jcd5971

Tigger wrote:

You will get loads of info here about rights and stuff but I'd just like to say I'm saddened that you have this to go through and I hope you and your family are ok.

?
It's just moving house nobody died.

Op When you renting this is unfortunately the main downside, you have no real long-term security or stability. As to your question if the landlord is looking for a quick sale she won't force you on your notice period, as if she does you can simply demand your 3 months notice and make her life hel with the rtsb.

Samuel T. Cogley

dennyk wrote: »

If you've been there over 5 years but less than 6, the landlord must provide you with proper notice of her intent to terminate the tenancy in order to sell at least 20 weeks in advance (and this must be in writing and follow certain standards as defined by the RTB; a phone call doesn't count). You would need to provide 12 weeks notice to terminate the tenancy from your side. However, you and the landlord can agree on a shorter notice period at the time the termination notice is given by either of you, if you wish, so if you do want to leave before that time, your best bet would be to discuss it with your landlord and see if she would be willing to work with you on the timing of the end of your tenancy. It may be to her advantage to allow it as well, since it means the property will be vacant and ready for possession sooner if she is hoping for a quick sale.

pilly wrote: »

Totally agree, it's forever one sided. My last tenants asked me if they could stay longer to find somewhere and I agreed as long as they gave 30 days notice.

They then complained that the 30 days notice was stopping them finding somewhere.

It works both ways OP. If you're expecting the LL to give you all your legally required notice then why shouldn't you have to do the same?

If you can come to an amicable agreement that's fine but I don't get this whole fcuk the LL attitude.

Maybe I'm missing what you two are trying to say but if I was turfing someone out of their home I'd see the notice period as the maximum they were going to stay and bend over backwards in every other respect. If they came to me and said "actually we found a place and we secured it by being able to move in tomorrow" I'd say good luck, pro rata the rent and give them the deposit back (assuming no issues there).

OP have you tried sounding out the LL as to whether she is going to make moving easy for you?

NinetyTwoTeam

What Mr Incognito and dennyk have said is correct. Nox saying 'she is now the landlord' is incorrect.

Unless the property has already been legally transferred to her (doubtful, these things take time) the notice must come from the husband, and has to be written. Until that happens no notice has been served and the notice period has not started. Of course she has no clue about this because she is an amateur landlord and they often think they can do whatever they want. Until she can show you a document proving she now fully owns the house AND that the deposit has been transferred to her, then you don't have any need to deal with her. The lease is not with her so she can't force you out (and if she tries to she'll get a hefty fine from the PRTB), and she doesn't have your deposit.

I'd say to her that we can get out quicker to facilitate the quick sale if you hand us the deposit, that way we can put it towards the new place straight away. If she goes 'well, my husband has the deposit', say 'exactly. Because he is our landlord and not yourself, so you are not able to evict us, only your husband can.'

Basically there is a provision in Part 4 where a tenant can only be evicted if the LL is selling or wants to use it for a family member. And the current owner needs to be the one to evoke that clause - the husband.

the_syco

andekwarhola wrote: »

If you expect your tenant to adhere to the minimum period of notice, you're 'bleeding them dry' and see advice like the quote above but woe betide you if you don't extend the full notice period to your tenants.

If the new landlord doesn't have the OP's deposit, the OP shouldn't bend over backwards to facilitate them.

Marcusm

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

What Mr Incognito and dennyk have said is correct. Nox saying 'she is now the landlord' is incorrect.

Unless the property has already been legally transferred to her (doubtful, these things take time) the notice must come from the husband, and has to be written. Until that happens no notice has been served and the notice period has not started. Of course she has no clue about this because she is an amateur landlord and they often think they can do whatever they want. Until she can show you a document proving she now fully owns the house AND that the deposit has been transferred to her, then you don't have any need to deal with her. The lease is not with her so she can't force you out (and if she tries to she'll get a hefty fine from the PRTB), and she doesn't have your deposit.

I'd say to her that we can get out quicker to facilitate the quick sale if you hand us the deposit, that way we can put it towards the new place straight away. If she goes 'well, my husband has the deposit', say 'exactly. Because he is our landlord and not yourself, so you are not able to evict us, only your husband can.'

Basically there is a provision in Part 4 where a tenant can only be evicted if the LL is selling or wants to use it for a family member. And the current owner needs to be the one to evoke that clause - the husband.

Even if the property has not been formally conveyed, she is in receipt of the rent and, provided she is doing so on her own account and not as agent for her erstwhile husband, she is the "landlord" in respect of the part 4 tenancy under which the OP occupies the property.

NinetyTwoTeam

Not only that, but the 'bleeding them dry' bit was in reference to the tenant thinking they could be forced to stay the whole of the landlord's required notice period, not the tenants minimum notice.

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daheff

where are you paying rent to? Have you been advised of a change of account?

dont change where you pay it until you get some proper (legal) documentation and a confirmation from the existing landlord of the change of ownership


her words are not sufficient to change the ownership.

mollygreene

jcd5971 wrote: »

?
It's just moving house nobody died.

What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I hope you don't find yourself in a similar situation one day.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

What Mr Incognito and dennyk have said is correct. Nox saying 'she is now the landlord' is incorrect.

Unless the property has already been legally transferred to her (doubtful, these things take time) the notice must come from the husband, and has to be written. Until that happens no notice has been served and the notice period has not started. Of course she has no clue about this because she is an amateur landlord and they often think they can do whatever they want. Until she can show you a document proving she now fully owns the house AND that the deposit has been transferred to her, then you don't have any need to deal with her. The lease is not with her so she can't force you out (and if she tries to she'll get a hefty fine from the PRTB), and she doesn't have your deposit.

I'd say to her that we can get out quicker to facilitate the quick sale if you hand us the deposit, that way we can put it towards the new place straight away. If she goes 'well, my husband has the deposit', say 'exactly. Because he is our landlord and not yourself, so you are not able to evict us, only your husband can.'

Basically there is a provision in Part 4 where a tenant can only be evicted if the LL is selling or wants to use it for a family member. And the current owner needs to be the one to evoke that clause - the husband.

The property has been legally served to her, I don't know why you're casting aspersions on that. Our landlord stopped all communication with us last September and we didn't pay rent to him from then on, or see or hear from him since. The wife collected three months rent in December from us and we've dealt with her ever since. We had to send a letter to her solicitor stating the value of the deposit and the rent we'd paid him and forwarded him a copy of the lease we had been under as well.

She is only meeting with the property dealer this week so she hasn't fomalised anything in writing yet. To answer the question above, we don't want to buy the property as it's three flats and we're first-time buyers.

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm waiting for her to call to tell us when she's collecting the rent this week so I'll find out more then. All the houses we were hoping to view today turned out to be taken. We might just move back in with our respective parents for six months and get a deposit together for our own place, but we weren't intending on doing that for another two or three years until my job is more secure... It's a big risk to take when I'm only on a fixed-term contract for another year.

Samuel T. Cogley

Zain Numerous Velvet wrote: »

It's a big risk to take when I'm only on a fixed-term contract for another year.

Our main income is fixed term contracts - honestly it's not that big a risk unless you may move abroad - even then you can rent the property if you're in to S&M.

We worked out that even if we were both on the dole we'd make mortgage payments - although we were lucky on a number of factors with the house we bought and have low enough mortgage repayments. While it's not a popular topic, it's almost impossible to repossess from a owner who is willing to engage. Frankly if you're willing to clean toilets to make the mortgage payment then go for it IMHO.

daheff

Zain Numerous Velvet wrote: »

The property has been legally served to her,Our landlord stopped all communication with us last September and we didn't pay rent to him from then on, or see or hear from him since. The wife collected three months rent in December from us and we've dealt with her ever since. We had to send a letter to her solicitor stating the value of the deposit and the rent we'd paid him and forwarded him a copy of the lease we had been under as well.

Has the landlord conveyed to you that the property has been transferred to the wife? Have you been provided with any legal documents to prove it?

Does your lease allow for it to be transferred?


Long story short, if you dont want the hassles of fighting this, then find a new place to live pronto. she wants you out, so eventually you'll need to move. You can always refuse to move, and then she'll have to go to court to evict you, but thats a difficult journey to go on too.

I'd suggest talk to her and see what she says...ask if you can leave as soon as you find somewhere to move (giving a reasonably short notice to her). She might just be happy to get you out of the house.

daheff

daheff wrote: »

Has the landlord conveyed to you that the property has been transferred to the wife? Have you been provided with any legal documents to prove it?

Does your lease allow for it to be transferred?

You don't even have to own a property to rent it out so I've no idea why you are making such a big issue out of this.

Do you normally ask a perspective LL for proof of ownership? You would be told where to go and rightly so if you did.

jcd5971

mollygreene wrote:

What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I hope you don't find yourself in a similar situation one day.

Ah cmere if your going to quote a post don't just pull out a line of it without context that's taking the piss a bit.

If you read the whole post and not just a line of it, you'd see that I said this is the big downside of renting you never really have long term stability or security.

In a situation like this it's best to take the emotion out of it, hence the statement no-one died.
While a pain it really is not the end of the world. Time will pass you will find a new home, getting wound up and worried won't help solveanything.

And the post I replied too read like a condolence message over a death,this kind of post in my opinion does not help at all as it further stress the op, in my opinion anyway.

And to the last part of your reply, I have been in the ops position and probably will be again it sucks but again no-one died

Sorry for wall of text but I had to explain my original post as the way you quoted it was incredibly disingenuous and very unfair.

daheff

Barbara Victorious Lyrics wrote: »

You don't even have to own a property to rent it out so I've no idea why you are making such a big issue out of this.

Do you normally ask a perspective LL for proof of ownership? You would be told where to go and rightly so if you did.

No -and lots of people get scammed over something like that.


but you do have to have legal rights to rent it out.

And key -the person they originally rented it from is not the person that is telling them they now own it. Renter should be sensible and protect themselves by ensuring that they are satisfied that ownership has transferred as has the party to the rental agreement.


If you dont agree, i'll be around tomorrow to collect your rent.

Mr. Incognito

Marcusm wrote: »

Even if the property has not been formally conveyed, she is in receipt of the rent and, provided she is doing so on her own account and not as agent for her erstwhile husband, she is the "landlord" in respect of the part 4 tenancy under which the OP occupies the property.

I think that you are misunderstanding the definition.

Landlord is defined as person entiled to receive the rent.

The important word here is ENTITLED.

That means entitled in law. Not the person in receipt. Unless the correct formal notice has been provided regarding the transfer of ownership and the tenant notified then the Landlord remains as set out in the original lease.

In the present case it appears that the OP has clarified that he was correctly notified but the problem in Ireland where 80% of the rented properties are one investment property owners then misunderstandings like this are common and the reasons the PRTB was set up. Because unqualified and unsuitable persons are acting as Landlords and are treating it like their property instead of running it as a business.