Cat is a Killer

riffmongous

kathleen37 wrote: »

The point is that there is no Irish data to dismiss.

The US is such a huge country, with such differing land mass types, that trying to compare the whole of the US to Ireland is just null.

There was also a paper from an american suburb which wouldn't be so radically different to Ireland, 50% of young birds were killed by cats

In 2011, he published a paper in the Journal of Ornithology that followed the fate of young gray catbirds in the Maryland suburbs. Soon after leaving the nest, 79 percent of birds were killed by predators, primarily cats, which leave the telltale sign of decapitated victims with just the bodies uneaten. (Ironically, this bird gets its name not because it commonly ends up in the jaws of cats, but from its vaguely catlike yowl).

link to article containing quote

Shivi111

Zillah wrote: »

It is reasonable to conclude that the US data would be comparable to our own, unless you can think of anything that would render us fundamentally different. Cats are the same everywhere; urban environments are largely the same.



Yet you're happy to engage in wild conjecture in the opposite direction, suggesting that the bird population would magically be unchanged with or without cats, because you like cats. You casually dismiss data for an entire continent showing cats decimating the bird population because you're happy to assume that we're somehow an exception.

No, the US is much more biodiverse - the two are just not comparable! Large sections of the USA are classified as 'megadiverse' and bird populations there have different additional contributing issues (as do cats there!) - it's like reviewing rents in Dublin and assuming that data can be applied to Kerry, you won't get the right answer.

My example was not wild conjecture, nor did it suggest 'magic', but was a resource based hypothetical used to demonstrate an equally plausible alternative.
(Admittedly, not data based... but I can't evidence it unless I can find a very big house to put all the cats in for a year...)

I like cats, I also like birds and other animals - and I really like evidence.

If it's proven that cats are a serious contributing factor to a decline in bird populations in Ireland, then I would be at the top of the queue looking for ways to address that, but until there is relevant data, there is no proven issue to be addressed.

B0jangles

Hang on, cats are a hugely successful non-native predator with zero natural enemies in this country, what do you think was predating on the irish wild bird population to a comparable extent before cats?

Btw the US is a much MORE cat hostile environment because there are multiple species which prey on them - coyote, Eagles etc
I'm attempting to link to a UK study from 1997 which concluded that Britain's 9 million cats likely killed between 85 and 100 million birds and animals over the period covered by the study (April to August 1997)

On phone, so it might not work...

https://www.google.ie/url?q=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/102393/541392-1-Foal-Hurst-Wood-Matter-A.pdf%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm2fpKsGMWypAwiDvyeCX7gN_dtapg%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiPuZfKnObTAhViJ8AKHYSBDt8QgAMICygA&usg=AFQjCNEhiNlh5U3wPWp8i1guSJr5jkCq7Q

Teyla Emmagan

CeNedra wrote:

Over a year ago I was away on business for a week and when I returned a very young cat had moved in with my dog. He is a very placid outdoor dog, 14 years old, who was happy enough with the cat to move into this house by the looks of it.

Aw, I just got your username! Big fan

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

Hang on, cats are a hugely successful non-native predator with zero natural enemies in this country, what do you think was predating on the irish wild bird population to a comparable extent before cats?

Btw the US is a much MORE cat hostile environment because there are multiple species which prey on them - coyote, Eagles etc
I'm attempting to link to a UK study from 1997 which concluded that Britain's 9 million cats likely killed between 85 and 100 million birds and animals over the period covered by the study (April to August 1997)

On phone, so it might not work...

https://www.google.ie/url?q=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/102393/541392-1-Foal-Hurst-Wood-Matter-A.pdf%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm2fpKsGMWypAwiDvyeCX7gN_dtapg%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiPuZfKnObTAhViJ8AKHYSBDt8QgAMICygA&usg=AFQjCNEhiNlh5U3wPWp8i1guSJr5jkCq7Q

That is an interesting study, and I definitely agree- it demonstrates that cats do kill birds (which I don't argue with). But, by its own admission, it does not demonstrate if those kills adversely affect population:
'This descriptive survey was not intended to gauge the impact of predation by cats on the population dynamics of their prey, and so no data on prey populations were collected.'

It demonstrates that cats are killing birds, but not what impact, if any, those kills are having long term on populations.

Look, I'm clearly a cat person (see almost all my comments on this site) & I accept I have some bias, but my point that I can't find actually evidence that bird populations would improve without cats stands, there are so many other factors that still come into play.

JuanGreen

Seems to be pretty normal behavior for cats, in my opinion. I had a cat a few years ago, luckily it was a lot more social than yours, but it still had the same predatory tendencies. It was fine by me, I just had to clean up stray feathers every now and then, but it's a part of their life cycle, not everything is as pretty as us people would like to make it.

riffmongous

JuanGreen wrote: »

Seems to be pretty normal behavior for cats, in my opinion. I had a cat a few years ago, luckily it was a lot more social than yours, but it still had the same predatory tendencies. It was fine by me, I just had to clean up stray feathers every now and then, but it's a part of their life cycle, not everything is as pretty as us people would like to make it.

The thing is it doesn't have to be part of their life cycle, it's a lot of needless killing.

kylith

Zillah wrote: »

Do you imagine I'm going to go around spanking cats? Giving them a telling off and making them feel bad? What a bizarre desire to white knight the poor kitties you have. I also didn't excuse our destruction of habitats; in fact I did literally the opposite and blamed it for the problem.

Regardless, I'm blaming cat-ownership as a whole, and cat-owners more specifically. Give them a bell. Spay your cats. I'd love if we could declaw them without maiming but I understand that's not possible.

I'd also like if we had about a tenth as many cats kept as pets but there's no accounting for taste.

I'd settle for people just keeping them in their own gardens.

JuanGreen

riffmongous wrote: »

JuanGreen wrote: »

Seems to be pretty normal behavior for cats, in my opinion. I had a cat a few years ago, luckily it was a lot more social than yours, but it still had the same predatory tendencies. It was fine by me, I just had to clean up stray feathers every now and then, but it's a part of their life cycle, not everything is as pretty as us people would like to make it.

The thing is it doesn't have to be part of their life cycle, it's a lot of needless killing.

I completely understand that, but I believe that some of those natural processes exist for a reason. For instance, if cats didn't cull the rat population every once in a while there would be rats everywhere. The same thing applies to frogs and flies. If you remove frogs eating flies from the equation, there will be a lot more flies to deal with. I am not sure if my point makes sense, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. Then again, I could be completely wrong

riffmongous

JuanGreen wrote: »

I completely understand that, but I believe that some of those natural processes exist for a reason. For instance, if cats didn't cull the rat population every once in a while there would be rats everywhere. The same thing applies to frogs and flies. If you remove frogs eating flies from the equation, there will be a lot more flies to deal with. I am not sure if my point makes sense, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. Then again, I could be completely wrong

No, it makes a lot of sense alright, it's a good point. Our ecosystems are so messed up it could certainly happen like that.

JuanGreen

riffmongous wrote: »

JuanGreen wrote: »

I completely understand that, but I believe that some of those natural processes exist for a reason. For instance, if cats didn't cull the rat population every once in a while there would be rats everywhere. The same thing applies to frogs and flies. If you remove frogs eating flies from the equation, there will be a lot more flies to deal with. I am not sure if my point makes sense, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. Then again, I could be completely wrong

No, it makes a lot of sense alright, it's a good point. Our ecosystems are so messed up it could certainly happen like that.

True, true! I will say that a huge part of the reason why the ecosystem is the way it is now is because we have tried to substitute a lot of naturally occurring phenomena with the ways we think they should be

noodler

Normal behaviour.

I didn't enjoy my cat playing with a mouse or bird either but, truth be told, the thing was usually fatally wounded by the time it's caught so all id be doing is throwing it in the bin to suffer or into some bushes.

sidious-sam

Madness! Here's the long and short of it. Yes, the domestic cat is not a native species, anyone with a little sense knows that. They have an impact on the native ecology, that's true too, but the reality is as follows. Cats are successful 3 times or so out of every 10 that they hunt. This varies to a degree depending on the environment in question and what exactly they're hunting. Also remember that they tend to hunt at dawn and dusk, making them a corpuscular predator, active around 6 hours of the day. Anything outside of that time tends to be opportunistic. They are hunted in turn by the likes of foxes, some large domestic dogs (rare, but it happens), and let's not discount the human factor.
I don't know if there is an estimated number of cats in Ireland, but I'll grant you they are highly adaptable. They are here to stay and there's no changing that, any thought of removing them from the country would be like trying to remove all the dogs.
The best way to control their numbers is through neutering. In the case of feral colonies, neutering can actually increase the overall health of the colony as it reduces the level of inbreeding.
For the most part, the answer to almost all cat related problems is education. Neuter, stop dumping unwanted pets at the side of roads, in fields, sheds etc, and, quite possibly, stop putting bird feeders in your gardens during the summer months. I know we all like to have our gardens full of songbirds, it sounds nice, but realise that you are also creating an all you can eat buffet for cats.

While we're talking about them being the voracious killers that they appear to be, instead of complaining why don't we put the feral colonies to work? They are a far better alternative to poisons when it comes to pest control, particularly with some toxins filtering up through the food chain. Stop treating them as a problem and more like a resource. Ferals tend to stay away from people unless you make a point of cornering them. There are volunteers all over the country who use their own money and time to try and keep feral colonies healthy and neutered.

I hadn't meant to ramble like this, but I like cats quite a bit, you have to work for their affection and it's worth it when you get it, and outside of cartoons, they are more like the plucky underdog (cat) who just won't quit ... but also is a mass murderer ... eh, so cats are Dexter?

Teyla Emmagan

kylith wrote:

I'd settle for people just keeping them in their own gardens.

They're not into that. They're predators and a big part of that behaviour for them is establishing a territory. And then patrolling the perimeter a few times a day looking for threats and chasing off competition. But for a cat a 'territory' isn't a suburban back garden. It could be a couple of acres. They may share a territory with other cats but even then each will do their patrols at different times. It's just part of their natural behaviour. Is pretty amazing really.

kylith

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

They're not into that. They're predators and a big part of that behaviour for them is establishing a territory. And then patrolling the perimeter a few times a day looking for threats and chasing off competition. But for a cat a 'territory' isn't a suburban back garden. It could be a couple of acres. They may share a territory with other cats but even then each will do their patrols at different times. It's just part of their natural behaviour. Is pretty amazing really.

So what? It's the same for dogs, ferrets, and a myriad other animals, but we still don't let them roam.

I don't want a cat. You want one, good for you; keep it on your property.

What I do have is a dog at risk of injuring himself throwing himself at the back door because there's a neighbour's cat sitting on the back wall and pissing off the neighbours barking at them. I bet if he caught and killed your cat you wouldn't shrug it off as 'his nature'.

Shivi111

kylith wrote: »

So what? It's the same for dogs, ferrets, and a myriad other animals, but we still don't let them roam.

I don't want a cat. You want one, good for you; keep it on your property.

What I do have is a dog at risk of injuring himself throwing himself at the back door because there's a neighbour's cat sitting on the back wall and pissing off the neighbours barking at them. I bet if he caught and killed your cat you wouldn't shrug it off as 'his nature'.

It's not the same for dogs, dogs are not predators in the way that cats are; every inch of a housecat's anatomy has been designed for hunting - we call them domesticated but they are not like a domesticated dog, there is very little anatomical difference between today's pet cat and their wild predecessors.

Some people will have some amount of luck in training a cat (mine can give the paw/ sit etc.) but they cannot be trained in the way a dog can - very few will accept being walked on a lead. I've very little hope of training my cat not to sit on a wall and stare at a barking dog... but I have successfully trained a dog (my mothers) not to bark at cats.

I always find it interesting when people say they don't want cats in their garden; I don't want the pigeons that are kept down the road pooping on my washing as they fly overhead, I don't particularly want the dog from around the corner peeing up aginst my wall every time it walks by - but these are minor annoyances in the grand scheme of things, the only way we would keep 100% of people happy would be to stop keeping any pets at all, and I think that would be very sad.

B0jangles

It's quite revealing that in environments where being allowed roam freely is dangerous to the cat, (like the US) or illegal (like Australia) cat-owners have managed to come up with solutions which simultaneously keep their pet cats happy and healthy while also keeping them largely indoors or if outside, in controlled spaces. Clearly it is not impossible to control where your cat goes, as so many like to claim, it is simply inconvenient and doing so requires something above the bare minimum of responsible pet-ownership.

In countries where there is little or no danger to the cat, like the UK or Ireland, cat-owners are largely happy to exercise no control whatsoever over their pets once they leave their homes. For the record, I do not hate cats, I've known many lovely cats but at the same time I'm not wilfully blind to the damage they do to the wild bird population. I have very little time for selfish and irresponsible cat-owners who turn a blind eye to the damage they allow their pets do because it is not actually illegal for them to do so.

B0jangles

Shivi111 wrote: »

It's not the same for dogs, dogs are not predators in the way that cats are; every inch of a housecat's anatomy has been designed for hunting - we call them domesticated but they are not like a domesticated dog, there is very little anatomical difference between today's pet cat and their wild predecessors.

Some people will have some amount of luck in training a cat (mine can give the paw/ sit etc.) but they cannot be trained in the way a dog can - very few will accept being walked on a lead. I've very little hope of training my cat not to sit on a wall and stare at a barking dog... but I have successfully trained a dog (my mothers) not to bark at cats.

I always find it interesting when people say they don't want cats in their garden; I don't want the pigeons that are kept down the road pooping on my washing as they fly overhead, I don't particularly want the dog from around the corner peeing up aginst my wall every time it walks by - but these are minor annoyances in the grand scheme of things, the only way we would keep 100% of people happy would be to stop keeping any pets at all, and I think that would be very sad.

If the bolded section is true, surely it follows that there should be stronger controls over the free roaming of cats compared to dogs?

shesty

Dropping in from the main page here....my parents have a (neutered) tom cat who frequently massacres birds.Somedays it's the only word for it...you go out in the garden and there could be two to three corpses.Their problem is that they can rescue the birds ok, but it's hard to find somewhere to put it to recover for a bit, without the cat getting at it again.It's desperate to see happening.It is normal though.

Knine

B0jangles wrote: »

In countries where there is little or no danger to the cat, like the UK or Ireland.

This bit is not correct. There is a huge amount of danger to wandering cats here. Cars, other cats, dogs, people, poisioning etc. It is very risky allowing a cat to wander. Having lost cats to dogs & poisioning I don't agree.

B0jangles

Knine wrote: »

This bit is not correct. There is a huge amount of danger to wandering cats here. Cars, other cats, dogs, people, poisioning etc. It is very risky allowing a cat to wander. Having lost cats to dogs & poisioning I don't agree.

Ok for 'danger' read 'perceived danger'; the overall point still stands that the majority of cat owners in this country are happy to let their cats roam freely.

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

If the bolded section is true, surely it follows that there should be stronger controls over the free roaming of cats compared to dogs?

Why? Still back to an earlier point I made - show me empirical evidence that demonstrates that wild bird populations are being damaged by cats and I'll consider it. We have lots of evidence that they kill birds, lots of birds, but I've not yet seen any that indicates that without cats we would have more wild birds.

In fact - Birdwatch Ireland doesn't seem to mention cats much on their website (I can find one suggestion to keep the hunters in at the breeding time), but they do have announcements showing their concern about agricultural policy, loss of bogland, the gorse fires, hedge cutting... I just think if cats were such a huge problem groups like this would be campaigning?

Actually, I've read so many articles now I am learning quite a lot about threats to birds in Ireland - seemingly birds that would have lived in the countryside are been driven into urban areas by the above factors, and are at higher risk from cats in those urban areas, inflating the 'Kill numbers'.

This issue is so huge - and cats are just one part of it - it's very easy to say 'help the birds, get rid of outdoor cats' but a huge amount more is needed - I'm feeling quite sad about the level of threat by the man-made issues, it's a real pandora's box when you start to read about it.

kathleen37

riffmongous wrote: »

There was also a paper from an american suburb which wouldn't be so radically different to Ireland, 50% of young birds were killed by cats


link to article containing quote

But it's still apples and oranges. There are many other predators that are prevalent in the States and not here - anything from possums, raccoons, skunks etc - all of which eat birds/eggs - so that article just isn't relevant here.

Having read through it, the study it's based on is still using estimates and I couldn't find the data the estimates are based on?

I'm not saying at all that cats don't have some impact on wildlife. My issue is that there still doesn't seem to be any data on what the impact is, and for me, rather than arguing about it, if anyone wants to help, then the solution to reducing any impact on wildlife is TNR on the feral population. (And the pet population actually)

That would make a huge difference.

I'm doing my bit by trapping every cat I see and getting it neutered - I wish more people would do the same.

B0jangles

Shivi111 wrote: »

Why? Still back to an earlier point I made - show me empirical evidence that demonstrates that wild bird populations are being damaged by cats and I'll consider it. We have lots of evidence that they kill birds, lots of birds, but I've not yet seen any that indicates that without cats we would have more wild birds.

In fact - Birdwatch Ireland doesn't seem to mention cats much on their website (I can find one suggestion to keep the hunters in at the breeding time), but they do have announcements showing their concern about agricultural policy, loss of bogland, the gorse fires, hedge cutting... I just think if cats were such a huge problem groups like this would be campaigning?

Actually, I've read so many articles now I am learning quite a lot about threats to birds in Ireland - seemingly birds that would have lived in the countryside are been driven into urban areas by the above factors, and are at higher risk from cats in those urban areas, inflating the 'Kill numbers'.

This issue is so huge - and cats are just one part of it - it's very easy to say 'help the birds, get rid of outdoor cats' but a huge amount more is needed - I'm feeling quite sad about the level of threat by the man-made issues, it's a real pandora's box when you start to read about it.

In order to test your cats/no cats hypothesis surely we'd need to be able to compare two similar environments, one of which did not have any free roaming cats? There aren't many of them left apart from maybe the arctic/antarctic. I posted a study that found cats in the UK were killing between 85-100 million birds and small animals over a 5 month period. Even in the absence of any other external pressures, that still a vast number for any wild animal population to have to deal with. Dealing with that while also dealing habitat loss and other pressures, its no wonder the population of many species is dwindling. Another study I came across found that 30% of the sparrow population in rural Britain was killed by cats annually.

30%.

I should also point out that the presence of cats in such large numbers across so many environments IS a man-made issue.

Ashbx

Shivi111 wrote: »

It's not the same for dogs, dogs are not predators in the way that cats are; every inch of a housecat's anatomy has been designed for hunting - we call them domesticated but they are not like a domesticated dog, there is very little anatomical difference between today's pet cat and their wild predecessors.

Some people will have some amount of luck in training a cat (mine can give the paw/ sit etc.) but they cannot be trained in the way a dog can - very few will accept being walked on a lead. I've very little hope of training my cat not to sit on a wall and stare at a barking dog... but I have successfully trained a dog (my mothers) not to bark at cats.

I always find it interesting when people say they don't want cats in their garden; I don't want the pigeons that are kept down the road pooping on my washing as they fly overhead, I don't particularly want the dog from around the corner peeing up aginst my wall every time it walks by - but these are minor annoyances in the grand scheme of things, the only way we would keep 100% of people happy would be to stop keeping any pets at all, and I think that would be very sad.

Can you please come train my dog not to bark and chase cats? Yes dogs are not predators like cats, but they have instincts.....and my terriers instinct is to kill your cat!!

Cats will kill. And personally, I don't have an issue with it (but should also be noted I don't own a cat so don't have to deal with the killings). Its natures way IMO. However, if a pet cat is frequently killing birds etc. As others have said, I think the owners should definitely put a simple collar and bell on it. Yes I know some cats don't like collars but tough luck! My dog didn't like her collar as a puppy yet she had no choice but to wear it. I think more regulations need to be taken for cat owners. Things like micro-chipping, neutering etc. But that's for a whole other thread!

kylith

Shivi111 wrote: »

Why? Still back to an earlier point I made - show me empirical evidence that demonstrates that wild bird populations are being damaged by cats and I'll consider it. We have lots of evidence that they kill birds, lots of birds, but I've not yet seen any that indicates that without cats we would have more wild birds.

I find it very strange that on one hand people are saying that roaming cats keep down the rodent population while on the other hand denying that they impact the bird population. If they impact one then they must surely impact the other.

Shivi111 wrote: »

Actually, I've read so many articles now I am learning quite a lot about threats to birds in Ireland - seemingly birds that would have lived in the countryside are been driven into urban areas by the above factors, and are at higher risk from cats in those urban areas, inflating the 'Kill numbers'.

All the more reason to limit the amount of danger to birds from cats, don't you think? Which is easier: keep a cat in a garden or totally reform agriculture? (Incidentally hedge cutting is not allowed during nesting season, if you see someone doing it report them)

SoapMcTavish

Neuter the cat - put a bell on the collar - and overfeed him ...

I've 3 cats - they still kill things but nothing like the early days. Mostly dead shrews, occasional bird.

Lumen

If birds weren't killed by cats they'd starve to death. Something has to put a limit on numbers, because they naturally over procreate.

I have tried rescuing victims but they always died of shock so now I just brick em and stick em in the brown bin.

kathleen37

I think it's always worth seeing if the birds can be saved. I've had quite a few recover enough to fly off. I put them in a closed greenhouse with water and some seed/meal worms (depending on type) and if they are not too chewed, some of them do make it.

Co-incidentally - I volunteer at a bat rescue, and if a cat gets a bat and breaks the skin - then I've never seen a bat recover without antibiotics. Infection has always got them so far. In those cases, get anti biotics into them as soon as possible is always the action, and they can then sometimes recover if you get to them quick enough.

Teyla Emmagan

kylith wrote:

What I do have is a dog at risk of injuring himself throwing himself at the back door because there's a neighbour's cat sitting on the back wall and pissing off the neighbours barking at them. I bet if he caught and killed your cat you wouldn't shrug it off as 'his nature'.

I was just contributing to the conversation, I wasn't trying to give you some sort of apoplectic attack there, relax.

Ragnar Lothbrok

If cats are such a threat to the bird population, how come my car and washing are still covered in bird sh!t every day

kylith

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I was just contributing to the conversation, I wasn't trying to give you some sort of apoplectic attack there, relax.

What can I say? People refusing to take responsibility for their pets pisses me off.

Lumen

kylith wrote: »

What can I say? People refusing to take responsibility for their pets pisses me off.

You're essentially arguing for all cats to be kept indoors because it is not possible to train or constrain a cat to stay within the bounds of a garden.

kylith

Lumen wrote: »

You're essentially arguing for all cats to be kept indoors because it is not possible to train or constrain a cat to stay within the bounds of a garden.

There are many ways to cat-proof your garden so that a cat cannot escape. To say it can't be done is nonsense.

pilly

B0jangles wrote: »

Any mouth or claw contact with a cat is almost certainly going to kill a bird, so even if you are one of the minority of cat owners who even bother to stop their pets 'playing' with the birds they catch, the bird will almost certainly die of blood poisoning afterwards. Cats should be kept indoors or in a properly secured garden (yes, cat-proof fencing exists).

The only truly responsible solution is for cat owners to be held as accountable for their pet's behaviour as dog owners are. Dogs are not allowed to roam freely to hunt whatever and whenever they choose, cats shouldn't be either. They are extremely successful predators who hunt for fun; the only reason the damage they cause to the natural environment is permitted is because they only kill 'worthless' wild animals instead of livestock.

Cats are by their very nature wild animals, "worthless" too in some peoples eyes.

It is not natural to keep them indoors or restricted. Do you also object to them killing mice and rats? What about the prey that birds kills? Where does is end? Nature is nature and it works.

Lumen

kylith wrote: »

There are many ways to cat-proof your garden so that a cat cannot escape. To say it can't be done is nonsense.

My garden has a 200m boundary including a low wall to the front. It really isn't possible without putting enormous security fences all over the place.

Do you have cats?

riffmongous

pilly wrote: »

Cats are by their very nature wild animals, "worthless" too in some peoples eyes.

It is not natural to keep them indoors or restricted. Do you also object to them killing mice and rats? What about the prey that birds kills? Where does is end? Nature is nature and it works.

But cats are not natural anymore. If you compare their habits and their impacts to actual Wildcats they are completely different even though they are visually and physically very similar

skallywag

kylith wrote: »

There are many ways to cat-proof your garden so that a cat cannot escape. To say it can't be done is nonsense.

I'd be very interested in seeing how this would be possible. I cannot picture it.

kathleen37

To be fair, it can be done by building catio's. Basically fencing the cats in.

Not an expense most people are willing to spend. If they're done properly, there is enough room (LOTS of space) and enough environmental stimulation for the cats, I'd be happy to have one.

riffmongous

I know plenty of people with normal healthy cats living in apartments who don't kill a single animal

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

But cats are not natural anymore. If you compare their habits and their impacts to actual Wildcats they are completely different even though they are visually and physically very similar

What's not natural about them?

Shivi111

kathleen37 wrote: »

To be fair, it can be done by building catio's. Basically fencing the cats in.

Not an expense most people are willing to spend.

Also, not possible in all situations, you have to have a big enough garden.
Some of the catio's out there are fab, but they need to be a very good size (in my opinion) to be worthwhile.

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

I know plenty of people with normal healthy cats living in apartments who don't kill a single animal

How do you know they don't kill any animals? Are they never allowed out?

kathleen37

Shivi111 wrote: »

Also, not possible in all situations, you have to have a big enough garden.
Some of the catio's out there are fab, but they need to be a very good size (in my opinion) to be worthwhile.

Very true. I've never had the money to invest in something I think would be good enough.

We do what we can...

Lumen

kathleen37 wrote: »

To be fair, it can be done by building catio's. Basically fencing the cats in.

If cat keepers were up for that sort of hassle they'd have got a dog instead.

riffmongous

pilly wrote: »

How do you know they don't kill any animals? Are they never allowed out?

They physically can't go out and nothing can get in, they can go onto the netted balcony though.

sidious-sam

kylith wrote: »

What can I say? People refusing to take responsibility for their pets pisses me off.

Dogs are not allowed to roam because they are a danger to large animals, sheep, goats, cows, etc. They are also not allowed because they can be a danger to adults and children. Cat's are a danger to none of these things.

Now, speaking of people refusing to take responsibility for their pets ...
1) Do you know that if your dog runs out onto the road and causes a crash, you are responsible? I've had two run ins with dogs left loose on the road, I'm a biker and I was lucky that neither encounter killed me. Was either owner interested in what almost happened? Not really.

2) Do you know that you are required by law to have your dog on a leash when out in public, regardless of the breed? (This is ignoring the addendum that certain breeds are also required to wear a muzzle)

So knowing the above, don't you think that you should be more outraged that people are ignoring the applicable laws in relation to dogs?

Returning to Cats. As I earlier stated, in urban environments, an Australian study found that Cats were successful in their hunts about 3 times in 10 rising slightly in open terrain. Birds are well aware of predators, and aren't exactly slow when it comes to being alert for threats. They are well able to look after themselves.

In regards to the differences between cats and dogs as hunters, dogs are pack animals and hunt better as a group than on their own, they also tend to go for larger prey. Cats tend to be solitary hunters and hunt smaller things. Both animals are suited perfectly to their mode of hunting, so there's little point in comparing them to be honest.

In all honesty, cats, while they do have an affect on prey numbers, I doubt it's as catastrophic as you seem to think. There are several species native to this island that have gone extinct in recent and not so recent times, that could or did prey on birds and small mammals. There are also species that are either endangered or greatly reduced that also prey on the above. Songbirds are numbers appear to be fairly steady, despite the level of cat hatred going on here.

It should be obvious that I'm a cat lover, I'm indifferent about dogs. Do I let my little asshole roam around devastating the local fauna? No, due to my proximity to a major road very close to my house. Would I let him roam if the road wasn't an issue? Sure. I used to before I moved to my current location. People tend to forget that your domestic killing machine is not as domesticated as your dog. They, despite their apparent sleeping tendencies, need to roam, otherwise they become board and can start misbehaving. They are hardwired to roam and hunt, dogs, for the most part, have had that bred out to a degree.

So give cats a break. They're doing the best they can

riffmongous

pilly wrote: »

What's not natural about them?

A few thousand years of human interference have long removed them from anything natural. Look up European wildcats and see how different they act

B0jangles

pilly wrote: »

Cats are by their very nature wild animals, "worthless" too in some peoples eyes.

It is not natural to keep them indoors or restricted. Do you also object to them killing mice and rats? What about the prey that birds kills? Where does is end? Nature is nature and it works.

By that standard all domestic dogs are 'wild animals' who should be free to roam and hunt wherever they want, so it's clearly laughable logic. The cats we are talking about are owned domestic pets, not wild animals hunting to survive. If you choose to keep any animal as a pet then you are accepting responsibility for its behaviour. By allowing your cat to roam freely you are failing in your responsibility as a pet owner.*

*the 'you' in this context is not directed at you Pilly , it is at any and all cat owners who think it is reasonable to let their cat roam wherever it wants without taking any responsibility for its behaviour.

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

They physically can't go out and nothing can get in, they can go onto the netted balcony though.

Horrible way for a cat to live imo, it's the equivalent of putting a human in prison for life.