Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'm religious and hope that's exactly where he is and I truly hope he is suffering.

Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.

jobbridge4life

BinLiner2 wrote: »

I've been there as a brother of a murder-suicide victim so I tend to have a cold hard view of these matters.

"Deaths dark door" is the sort of flowery warped language i have disdain for

That isn't cold, it is cruel. Taken together with your comments your attitude to Hawe's parents is disturbing.

They woke up just like Clodagh's mother on that day, believing they had three beuatiful grandchildren, a beloved daughter-in-law and a loving son. They lost all that because of their son and the terrible crime he committed. Their grief is as valid as anyone elses and is compounded by the fact that it was their son who was the cause.

Any feeling towards them, any, other than profound sympathy is shameful.

PeterParker957

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.

You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.

jobbridge4life

Tazium wrote: »

This is a story that has provoked emotion and hatred, united and divided a community and fortunately/unfortunately we'll never really understand the wall Mr. Hawe faced that led him to the multiple murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan. I get shivers thinking about the fact that he would have had to restrain each family member as they would inevitably struggle to react. This was a horrific act, carried out by a disturbed individual and has lasting consequences for both families. Was it telling that his parents didn't attend the inquest? I wonder if Cloadagh's family have reconciled with his family over their shared grief of if there is some lingering blame.

If there was something you could say to Alan Hawe prior to taking these action, what would it be?

I think I'd start with, "let's talk".

I'd tell him to check into a mental institution immediately but I would probably just say kill yourself leave your family alone.

jobbridge4life

PeterParker957 wrote: »

You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.

Where are the rational people trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old? Hysteria like the above is just ridiculous.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

You stab your six year old through the throat and I don't give a toss what rationale well meaning people try to use to justify it.

Do you give a toss about his parents, when you post all over the internet that you hope he's burning in Hell?

demfad

jobbridge4life wrote: »

None of the quotes you posted actually say he was abusive, the annoynmous relative you continuiously reference also said they had no idea why he did it, and that they didn't know if Clodagh was going to leave him. With respect, they appear to have no greater understanding of what happened behind those closed doors than anyone else.

There are also several quotes from Clodagh's family that indicate they never felt she was in danger, that she never felt she was in danger, that there was no signs of anything untoward building. There are no reports of the children being anything but happy and well adjusted.

The strongest on the record statement I and others have been able to find is the one about Clodagh having to ask him about going to Dublin.

You appear to have decided to present vague, mild statements made by Clodagh's family as some sort of unquestionable and much more severe conclusion as this man's descipable crimes.

The relative said he was manipulative and controlling over many years which is domestic violence: by definition. You may not understand domestic violence: thats not uncommon.
His immediate family have said many times that he was an evil man who shielded his true personality from them. They stated that the abuse was not physical but "hidden". In fairness they would know better than an anonymous poster on boards. Lets believe them.

What of their actions?
They exhumed the killers body away from their loved ones and have organised a large fundraising campaign to raise awareness for domestic violence.

If you can find any quote from family members (after the relative's story on domestic violence) that says in support of Hawe or that says the were well adjusted or happy as you imply, then please share it.

Most reports sate the family were 'tight' and always seen together. Unfortunately that does not mean well adjusted and happy, probably the opposite in this case. Hard to know how Clodagh and family are doing when she was rarely seen away from him. Do you get this?

Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.

PeterParker957

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Where are the rational people trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old? Hysteria like the above is just ridiculous.

No hysteria - and please read the post admonishing me for wishing he was suffering in Hell.

And I said "rationale", i.e. the excuse/reason given and not "rational" to describe a person.

PeterParker957

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

Do you give a toss about his parents, when you post all over the internet that you hope he's burning in Hell?

His parents are his concern, not mine. He didn't want to read nasty comments on the internet, then probably best not to slaughter his entire family.

BinLiner2

jobbridge4life wrote: »

That isn't cold, it is cruel. Taken together with your comments your attitude to Hawe's parents is disturbing.

They woke up just like Clodagh's mother on that day, believing they had three beuatiful grandchildren, a beloved daughter-in-law and a loving son. They lost all that because of their son and the terrible crime he committed. Their grief is as valid as anyone elses and is compounded by the fact that it was their son who was the cause.

Any feeling towards them, any, other than profound sympathy is shameful.

They probably still think of him as a loving son

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.

Bloody hell. Irony overload!

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't feel that at all.

You keep stating that Clodagh's family knew he was a manipulative abuser when they clearly didn't.

I stated they know he was a domestic abuser as they have said as much albeit that it was hidden. Before the relative came out and up to 3 weeks after the murders they thought he had just snapped. Up until that point they did not know. This is not unusual as most skilled abusers isolate the victim often by gaining confidence with the abusers family.
Clearly this is what happenned here. You are doing them a disservice to imply that their opinion of Hawe while under his influence was what they believe now.

jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

The relative said he was manipulative and controlling over many years which is domestic violence: by definition. You may not understand domestic violence: thats not uncommon.

I grew up in a household with domestic violence. I have experienced domestic violence in my own life.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

The link above is the report of the comments of the annonymous relative.

The only quote contained therein that comes close to aligning with your presentation, is the following:

'Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.'

That doesn't go nearly as far as you have in your comments, and again is at odds with the accounts given by many members of the Coll family.

demfad wrote: »

His immediate family have said many times that he was an evil man who shielded his true personality from them. They stated that the abuse was not physical but "hidden". In fairness they would know better than an anonymous poster on boards. Lets believe them.

What of their actions?
They exhumed the killers body away from their loved ones and have organised a large fundraising campaign to raise awareness for domestic violence.

If you can find any quote from family members (after the relative's story on domestic violence) that says in support of Hawe or that says the were well adjusted or happy as you imply, then please share it.

Otherwise it is disingenous of you to try to bend a story to your own view and misrepresent that family.

The man butchered his family, their family. Of course they think he is evil. My query is that a narrative is being presented that he was controlling, abusive etc. yet other than vague and unsubstantiated comments there is no evidence, no evidence has been suggested by the family, other than the comment about Dublin. If there is more I am more than willing to read and accept it. Why wouldn't I be?

'Prof Kennedy noted from the documents he had reviewed Clodagh Hawe’s childhood anxieties and those related to being a mother were unremarkable and within the normal range.

The three boys showed no sign of any adjustment disorders. And there was no sign of “evidence of trauma in childhood”.'

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-had-depressive-symptoms-for-almost-a-decade-inquest-told-1.3332363

'"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html

There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:

'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

Bloody hell. Irony overload!

In lieu of the massacre her family campaigned and raised a substantial amount of money to help sufferers of domestic violence. They have stated that the abuse Clodagh sufferred was not physical but hidden. They have called his actions calculated.
If you still claim the family believe that he was a 'good man who snapped' then please substantiate. Otherwise please show more integrity.
You can start by explaining their massive support for a domestic violence charity.

bobsman

Hawe's parents absence at the Inquest was probably them showing sensitivity towards Clodagh's mam and sister (and any other of Clodagh's relatives who attended).

jobbridge4life

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No hysteria - and please read the post admonishing me for wishing he was suffering in Hell.

And I said "rationale", i.e. the excuse/reason given and not "rational" to describe a person.

I read the post, it wasn't trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old. Not close.

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

In lieu of the massacre her family campaigned and raised a substantial amount of money to help sufferers of domestic violence. They have stated that the abuse Clodagh sufferred was not physical but hidden. They have called his actions calculated.
If you still claim the family believe that he was a 'good man who snapped' then please substantiate. Otherwise please show more integrity.
You can start by explaining their massive support for a domestic violence charity.

I didn't claim anything about him being a good man who snapped on this thread. I just can't square up what you're saying with such certainty with what I've read from the family.

PeterParker957

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I read the post, it wasn't trying to justify the slaughter of a six year old. Not close.

Well thankfully you don't speak for all religious people. Many of them are also Christian and don't condemn people without knowing the full facts, adding hugely to the pain and grief of surviving family members.

Maybe not directly justifying it, no - but "well we'll see what else might have happened "before condemning him".

Like there was something that might be revealed so we'd go "ah well, you can see his point of view there".

No chance.

The man stabbed his wife and children in the throat. I'm comfortable condemning him.

demfad

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I grew up in a household with domestic violence. I have experienced domestic violence in my own life.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

The link above is the report of the comments of the annonymous relative.

The only quote contained therein that comes close to aligning with your presentation, is the following:

'Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.'

Using a tool to control a spouse or family member is how domestic violence is defined. That can include manipulation as well as violence.

'"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html[/QUOTE]

From the same article:

"He looked like the ideal husband, but he was a controlling kind of person," Mary said. "I would ask Clodagh if she would like to go shopping in Dublin she would have to run it by him first. He could be as controlling with his silence as he could be with his words."

Again a pattern of using tools to achieve control = domestic violence. You dont understand or care to clearly.

There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:[/QUOTE]



'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'

Yes, I have quoted this section before: but lest leave nothing out:

However, a relative of Clodagh told the Irish Sun that Alan 'was not the saint the media appear determined to canonise'.

The relative added: "Alan is a killer. He killed Clodagh, he robbed her children of their future.

"He was not an ill man who suffered years of mental torment.

"He was a man who meticulously controlled and planned every aspect of his evil deed."

The relative said that since Clodagh had died, she had been described as shy and quiet but it wasn't how the relative knew her.

“She was a lovely, kind and funny girl when we were growing up — she loved people.

“We don’t know why he did what he did.

"Maybe she decided to leave him.

"Maybe she got sick of her life with him.

"I suppose the boys were that bit older and maybe she saw a way out.”


Community mourns as friends of Hawe family pay their respects to three children, their loving mother and father who took their lives
The family member doesn't believe that mental illness offers an explanation of why Alan Hawe did what he did.

The relative added: “Mental illness is reaching epidemic proportions in Ireland and certainly more needs to be done to help those suffering from mental health difficulties no matter what they are.

“However, while I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.

“But to eulogise him as some kind of saint who didn’t know what he was doing is grossly unfair to those who suffer day-in-day-out from mental illness yet somehow manage never to kill anyone.

"Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.

“To keep up that illusion over many years took skills not normally associated with those who have mental illness.

"Let’s not tarnish the mentally ill by associating them with such evil.

“Remember Clodagh — a mother, a daughter, a sister, a niece, cousin, teacher, friend, a wonderful woman who came face-to-face with evil and did not live to tell the tell."

The relative added that Clodagh and her kids were killed by somebody who should have protected them.

helimachoptor

C__MC wrote: »

He also shut closed his window curtains on the house the day of the murder

How he could slay the 6 year to death
Isn't even worth thinking about

as a parent to 2 young kids, i just cant fathom it, I'd stand in front of Isis, a train, a steam roller to protect them. I don't buy the mental illness stuff, i really think it's some sort of carefully manicured front for hide something else.

jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

Using a tool to control a spouse or family member is how domestic violence is defined. That can include manipulation as well as violence.

'"If Clodagh felt she or the boys were in any danger they would've walked out. They wouldn't be there. She felt safe," said Mary'

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html

From the same article:



Again a pattern of using tools to achieve control = domestic violence. You dont understand or care to clearly.

There you go... and as for me twisting the words of the relatives... you seem to have been very selective in recounting the words of the annoynmous relative who in the same article you posted, said the following:[/QUOTE]



'I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.'

Yes, I have quoted this section before: but lest leave nothing out:[/QUOTE]

And none of the above is anywhere near as strong as you have been presenting it on this thread. Myself and other posters have repeatedly asked you to provide the source of your intense conclusions and large claims you haven't. You just keep referencing this annoynmous relative, you by their own words, says they have no idea why he did it, and acknowledges that he wasn't sane by normal standards.

dok_golf

Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

thierry14

dok_golf wrote: »

Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

The man was a piece of ****

Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

iamwhoiam

dok_golf wrote: »

Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

Yes I know you are being sarcastic but how bloody insensitive to even think or write that down .

IITYWYBMAD

dok_golf wrote: »

Wish people would stop saying that pre planning is a sign he wasn't mentally unhinged, unless they are qualified psychologists. Do a bit of research before sweeping statements. Also, I must have missed it, but where is the report that there was domestic violence in that house?? And finally, if there is such a report, does it say which partner was the perpetrator of the violence? ( well seeing as there is so much diatribe being written I may as well join in the speculation )

I don't think that there is a definitive answer anywhere. People are voicing an opinion on an event that is highly unusual.

By normal, human standards, what he did was evil, I don't see how any person could think otherwise.

Huge strides have been made in this country, over the past number of years, to allow for mental issues to be discussed openly and without stigma. It's still not perfect, but it's better.

Alan Hawe may have had mental issues of one degree or another, and his behavior would suggest that he was suffering from some sort of psychosis and possibly narcissism.

It does not preclude him from being evil, however. You can be "mentally unhinged" and evil. You don't have to be a qualified anything to have that opinion.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

His parents are his concern, not mine. He didn't want to read nasty comments on the internet, then probably best not to slaughter his entire family.

He's not the one reading the nasty comments. And what you post on line and how it affects innocent people caught up in a tragedy is your responsibility.

jobbridge4life

thierry14 wrote: »

Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

The man was a piece of ****

Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

Was the Director of the Central Mental Hospital defending Hawe?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

demfad wrote: »

I stated they know he was a domestic abuser as they have said as much albeit that it was hidden. Before the relative came out and up to 3 weeks after the murders they thought he had just snapped. Up until that point they did not know. This is not unusual as most skilled abusers isolate the victim often by gaining confidence with the abusers family.
Clearly this is what happenned here. You are doing them a disservice to imply that their opinion of Hawe while under his influence was what they believe now.

Who is 'the relative' that you keep referring to? A close family member, or a third cousin six times removed that some rag dug up and paid to spout rubbish?

PeterParker957

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He's not the one reading the nasty comments. And what you post on line and how it affects innocent people caught up in a tragedy is your responsibility.

I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

dok_golf

thierry14 wrote: »

Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

The man was a piece of ****

Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.

PeterParker957

dok_golf wrote: »

Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.

Yes we do. A woman and three kids stabbed in the throat.

jobbridge4life

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I don't think that there is a definitive answer anywhere. People are voicing an opinion on an event that is highly unusual.

By normal, human standards, what he did was evil, I don't see how any person could think otherwise.

Huge strides have been made in this country, over the past number of years, to allow for mental issues to be discussed openly and without stigma. It's still not perfect, but it's better.

Alan Hawe may have had mental issues of one degree or another, and his behavior would suggest that he was suffering from some sort of psychosis and possibly narcissism.

It does not preclude him from being evil, however. You can be "mentally unhinged" and evil. You don't have to be a qualified anything to have that opinion.

It is a question bosed by El Duerino on this thread and a good one I think, what does the label 'evil' add to our understanding?

Does it make what he did worse? Was he born evil? Did he become evil? Murdering your family is defacto an evil thing to do, by any common understanding of the word. I just don't get what difference it makes in considering the matter?

dok_golf

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes I know you are being sarcastic but how bloody insensitive to even think or write that down .

What happens if it is proved Hawe was insane? Will you class all of the speculation written above as insensitive then?

jobbridge4life

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

How is it hypocritical and who is being hypocritical?

iamwhoiam

dok_golf wrote: »

Not defending him, but not attacking him either. The fact is, we don't know what happened. Until we do, everything written here is speculation.

We most certainley do know what happened and I for one will give Clodagh and the three boys the respect to say it was an evil act .Regardless of the mans mental health the act was evil .

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

No it wouldn't. You just don't have to say it at all on a public forum out of consideration for his traumatised parents. You can think it, but publicly proclaiming it is totally different.

dok_golf

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Yes we do. A woman and three kids stabbed in the throat.

I meant in respect of Hawe's state of mind and what drove him to commit these terrible acts ( obviously)

PeterParker957

dok_golf wrote: »

What happens if it is proved Hawe was insane? Will you class all of the speculation written above as insensitive then?

Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

That's so many levels of uncool.

jobbridge4life

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We most certainley do know what happened and I for one will give Clodagh and the three boys the respect to say it was an evil act .Regardless of the mans mental health the act was evil .

Of course it was. Whether the act was occassioned by psychotic break, a raging domestic abuser, or whatever it is evil. I don't think anyone here is questioning that it is evil.

dok_golf

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Of course it was. Whether the act was occassioned by psychotic break, a raging domestic abuser, or whatever it is evil. I don't think anyone here is questioning that it is evil.

Exactly,

dok_golf

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

That's so many levels of uncool.

And everyone else ( with a few exceptions) is speculating the Alan Hawe was evil, a scumbag, that he rots in hell. All I'm trying to point out that no one knows the full story. As someone who suffers from severe depression, these same speculators are the type of people who tell depressives to "cop on" and "snap out of it", without having a ****ing clue as to what it's like to be e.g. suicidal.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Dude, you speculated Clodagh "may" have been the perpetrator of any domestic violence.

That's so many levels of uncool.

He was being ironic.

PeterParker957

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He was being ironic.

Another who has no clue what that word means.

Thank U Alanis!

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Another who has no clue what that word means.

Thank U Alanis!

I understand what it means perfectly, thank you.

PeterParker957

dok_golf wrote: »

And everyone else ( with a few exceptions) is speculating the Alan Hawe was evil, a scumbag, that he rots in hell. All I'm trying to point out that no one knows the full story. As someone who suffers from severe depression, these same speculators are the type of people who tell depressives to "cop on" and "snap out of it", without having a ****ing clue as to what it's like to be e.g. suicidal.

We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".

IITYWYBMAD

jobbridge4life wrote: »

It is a question bosed by El Duerino on this thread and a good one I think, what does the label 'evil' add to our understanding?

Does it make what he did worse? Was he born evil? Did he become evil? Murdering your family is defacto an evil thing to do, by any common understanding of the word. I just don't get what difference it makes in considering the matter?

It's a way of society understanding what he did. I don't really get the premise of this train of thought, to be honest.

Let's put it this way, had he killed his family and not committed suicide, there would have been hoards of people in public and in the media denouncing him as an aberration of society and the devil incarnate.

The fact that he hung himself, after committing these murders, somehow "downgrades" him to a socially awkward individual, suffering with a mental illness, and a victim of a family tragedy.

I'm not qualified to say one way or the other what his mental state was, or how 'psychotic' he may have been. His actions are his actions, which in my opinion were evil. His mental state is an aside, as far as I'm concerned.

In answer to your question, does it make what he did worse. How could it. I don't think the label adds anything to our understanding, but there does seem to be 2 camps:

1) He was evil and he should burn in hell (assumes a belief in the afterlife, which I find ironic)

2) He was unwell, and a victim of mental illness.

I think he was most probably both.

iamwhoiam

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

I understand what it means perfectly, thank you.

There is a time and place for irony and sarcasm . And even to mention her name like that poster did ( albeit in cloaked in irony ) was wrong in my opinion

dok_golf

PeterParker957 wrote: »

We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".

Just from my own point of view, I can understand completely, that a deranged individual can meticulously pre plan any depraved act and do so in a manner that suggest a very clear level of focus. When I, or anyone else, is in a state like this, it's like being in a cocoon where the illogical seems the only final/clear option. It makes perfect sense although you know that it is "wrong" but in the cold light of day, it is the best thing to do.

I'm not saying that Hawe was in the state of mind. Maybe he was totally compos mentis ( very unlikely). I'm just reluctant to rule it out. As the father to 3 kids, I couldn't ever see myself harming them but when times were bad, I sometimes scared myself as to where my mind brought me.

Riskymove

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

It's a way of society understanding what he did.

well exaclty

I am sure there are many who find the idea that a sane, rational person could do this to their family simply uncomprehensible .....with the the idea that he was simply "evil"

I mean if he was just simply evil how did he manage to get a family in the first place or wait until this point to do what he did. If he is "evil" there must be many other evil acts he carried out right?

If he in fact had mental health issues and a pyscotic episode this at least gives some rationale...it doesnt mean he should automatically be excused or forgiven

Boulevardier

I wonder if it is possible that some sort of possession may have been involved.