Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

c68zapdsm5i1ru

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There is a time and place for irony and sarcasm . And even to mention her name like that poster did ( albeit in cloaked in irony ) was wrong in my opinion

He was trying to demonstrate how easy it is to twist things, speculate and spread rumours when in fact we haven't a clue what actually went on behind the scenes.

tayto lover

eviltwin wrote: »

I think he was evil not so much because of the murders but the manner of the murders. He butchered them. His lovely wife had a hatchet in her head. His beautiful boys had their throats slit. I just cannot get that out of head that he deliberately stabbed them through the windpipe to prevent them calling for help, that he made sure he took out the strongest first, that he made sure his family were the ones to benefit financially. He even referenced murdering them in his suicide note, there was no sense of taking them to a better place or anything like that. What he did was pure savagery, he deserves to rot.

I've been saying that for ages here too.
The mental health excuse is just a mask to hide an evil and vile murdering thug who had no care or empathy for his wife and children.

Paddy Cow

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He's not the one reading the nasty comments. And what you post on line and how it affects innocent people caught up in a tragedy is your responsibility.

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

No it wouldn't. You just don't have to say it at all on a public forum out of consideration for his traumatised parents. You can think it, but publicly proclaiming it is totally different.

Do you honestly think his parents are going to be reading this thread?

iamwhoiam

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He was trying to demonstrate how easy it is to twist things, speculate and spread rumours when in fact we haven't a clue what actually went on behind the scenes.

I am well aware what he was " trying " to do . I still find it distasteful and unnecessary

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Do you honestly think his parents are going to be reading this thread?

Do you honestly think that when things are said and repeated on threads on internet forums they don't gather steam, whip up hysteria, get quoted, tweeted etc?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am well aware what he was " trying " to do . I still find it distasteful and unnecessary

Well I find a lot of what you and other posters are saying to be distasteful and unnecessary also.

dok_golf

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am well aware what he was " trying " to do . I still find it distasteful and unnecessary

Now you know how people with mental issues feel.

tayto lover

LCD wrote: »

Not sure if can say this. I`ve family living in the area.
Rumors that he had, & was being investigated again, in relation to long standing unsolved crimes (not relating to his family or career). Hence the fall from grace.
Again these are just rumors I heard 2nd hand.

I heard these too.

IITYWYBMAD

Riskymove wrote: »

well exaclty

I am sure there are many who find the idea that a sane, rational person could do this to their family simply uncomprehensible .....with the the idea that he was simply "evil"

I mean if he was just simply evil how did he manage to get a family in the first place or wait until this point to do what he did. If he is "evil" there must be many other evil acts he carried out right?

If he in fact had mental health issues and a pyscotic episode this at least gives some rationale...it doesnt mean he should automatically be excused or forgiven

That does not tell the full story. Typically, people are not defined by a single trait. He could be charming and evil. Manipulative, charming and evil. Twisted, charming and evil.

It's over simplistic to try and label him as this. More-so, his actions are more easily defined.

Paddy Cow

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

Do you honestly think that when things are said and repeated on threads on internet forums they don't gather steam, whip up hysteria, get quoted, tweeted etc?

You are trying to stop people from voicing their opinions on a forum by trying to emotionally blackmail them. The only person responsible for this whole sorry mess is Alan Hawe. What he did is going to be far more traumatising to his parents than anything people say on here, on twitter or anywhere on the internet.

I do not for a second think his parents are googling his name and reading comments in any form on the internet. This was a shocking case and of course people are going to talk about it. Alan was their son and while they may still love him, they will have had their own nasty thoughts about him. They're not going to let us in on them though. Do you think his parents don't know that many people have a low opinion of Alan? What he did was horrific. People will talk about it for a long time to come.

pjohnson

dok_golf wrote: »

Now you know how people with mental issues feel.

Good that you speak for ALL people who have had mental health issues so factually. This has nothing to do with mental health.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Paddy Cow wrote: »

You are trying to stop people from voicing their opinions on a forum by trying to emotionally blackmail them. The only person responsible for this whole sorry mess is Alan Hawe. What he did is going to be far more traumatising to his parents than anything people say on here, on twitter or anywhere on the internet.

I do not for a second think his parents are googling his name and reading comments in any form on the internet. This was a shocking case and of course people are going to talk about it. Alan was their son and while they may still love him, they will have had their own nasty thoughts about him. They're not going to let us in on them though. Do you think his parents don't know that many people have a low opinion of Alan? What he did was horrific. People will talk about it for a long time to come.

You can excuse it any way you like, speculating on a public forum, spreading rumours, vilifying people and causing huge anguish to the remaining family is reprehensible behaviour.

PeterParker957

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

You can excuse it any way you like, speculating on a public forum, spreading rumours, vilifying people and causing huge anguish to the remaining family is reprehensible behaviour.

It's but a drop in the bucket compared to mass murder though.

pjohnson

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He was trying to demonstrate how easy it is to twist things, speculate and spread rumours when in fact we haven't a clue what actually went on behind the scenes.

We know that he slaughtered them methodically. I can understand why some people like to pretend he didnt but facts are there.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

PeterParker957 wrote: »

It's but a drop in the bucket compared to mass murder though.

Your point being?

pjohnson

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

You can excuse it any way you like, speculating on a public forum, spreading rumours, vilifying people and causing huge anguish to the remaining family is reprehensible behaviour.

And you see nothing wrong with liking a post speculating Clodagh (who suffered hatchet and knife wounds) was his abuser just for the lols. Fair play to you.

iamwhoiam

dok_golf wrote: »

Now you know how people with mental issues feel.

No I don't , neither do you . You only know how you feel and are not a spokesperson for how anyone else feels . And I still stand by my opinion that mentioning Clodagh the way you did was distastful and should never have been said . Regardless of an effort at irony

c68zapdsm5i1ru

pjohnson wrote: »

And you see nothing wrong with liking a post speculating Clodagh (who suffered hatchet and knife wounds) was his abuser just for the lols. Fair play to you.

He wasn't doing it for lols. But this has already been explained.

pjohnson

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

He wasn't doing it for lols. But this has already been explained.

Not really. The "explanation" revolved around us supposedly not knowing what happened. When we do. But you really really like that post so lets ignore facts.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

pjohnson wrote: »

Not really. The "explanation" revolved around us supposedly not knowing what happened. When we do. But you really really like that post so lets ignore facts.

No you don't know the full story. You know the culmination of it, but not all of the factors that led up to it. Many of the 'facts' you're talking about are speculation, rumour and people jumping to conclusions.

Oh and if you're going to bang on about me 'liking' the post, perhaps you'd quote the post in full and not just one selected line out of context.

pjohnson

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

No you don't know the full story. You know the culmination of it, but not all of the factors that led up to it. Many of the 'facts' you're talking about are speculation, rumour and people jumping to conclusions.

The fact I refer to are not speculation or rumour unless you think the Coroner is incompetent. Is that what you think?

dok_golf

pjohnson wrote: »

And you see nothing wrong with liking a post speculating Clodagh (who suffered hatchet and knife wounds) was his abuser just for the lols. Fair play to you.

What's the difference between speculating that Hawe was evil and totally sane and what I said. I find it offensive that people so readily jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts. And to those who suggest I am a spokesperson for all with mental issues, I think I said "from my point of view" ( and yes, I'm sure some will trawl back to find the posts where I didn't)

iamwhoiam

dok_golf wrote: »

What's the difference between speculating that Hawe was evil and totally sane and what I said. I find it offensive that people so readily jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts. And to those who suggest I am a spokesperson for all with mental issues, I think I said "from my point of view" ( and yes, I'm sure some will trawl back to find the posts where I didn't)

If you don't know that speculating about a woman who was brutally slaughtered if even in irony was wrong then no amount of explaining will enlighten you . So I am out of this conversation .

PeterParker957

dok_golf wrote: »

What's the difference between speculating that Hawe was evil and totally sane and what I said. I find it offensive that people so readily jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts. And to those who suggest I am a spokesperson for all with mental issues, I think I said "from my point of view" ( and yes, I'm sure some will trawl back to find the posts where I didn't)

Genuine question - do you really not understand what was wrong about speculating that Clodagh was a domestic abuser and Hawe therefore the victim ?

Really, is that not obviously an abhorrent a supposition to make ?

TwilightFan88

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Hawe massacre, whilst utterly awful, wasn't the only murder suicide of a family on Ireland. Not by a long shot.

Anyone remember the murder suicides in Monageer and Clonroche in Wexford around 2007?

And in previous decades I suspect it was covered up by the authorities as something else.

Only too well.

Two families killed by the father who then took his own life.

Both equally disturbing and wrong.

But the narrative of these two stories were played out so differently in the media.

Why? One family had money and one did not.

The family with money and the good jobs and the GAA links were given a pass. A man that was an upstanding member of the community, and must have been suffering terrible. Woe is him narrative. Also was buried alongside those that he murdered. Also, this man also tried to hide the fact that he drugged him two sons, shot his wife and then shot himself by setting the house on fire to make it look like a terrible accident.

The other family? On social, health issues, etc. So the narrative was that the father was a monster that planned it all and the wife and kids never stood a chance. Afterwards, it came out that she actually helped plan it all. Did the narrative change? No!

But that is Ireland! That is RTE and the Irish papers.

Needs to stop.

Those two men were monsters. So was Alan Hawe.

Their perceived social and economical status does not change that. Those reporting on these things need to wake up and realise that.

Bobbler15

Does anyone know what was in the suicide letter? Hints as to why he done it? All you hear is he was expecting a "fall from grace" whatever that means.

Maybe the letter would tell more?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

pjohnson wrote: »

The fact I refer to are not speculation or rumour unless you think the Coroner is incompetent. Is that what you think?

I am talking about Alan Hawe's mental state, conjecture about domestic abuse etc which the Coroner did not make any kind of statement about, but many posters are discussing as if they fully know the 'facts'.

captbarnacles

The best thing that can come out of this is that everyone knows a person who does this will be reviled forever with anything they have done in life now worthless because of their crime. Zero sympathy and zero empathy for the perpetrator.

Look at the notes Hawe left and there are similar notes in other cases too - they care what is thought of them after the fact. So if this change in attitude towards murder suicides could give even one potential killer pause for thought it will have accomplished something.

dok_golf

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Genuine question - do you really not understand what was wrong about speculating that Clodagh was a domestic abuser and Hawe therefore the victim ?

Really, is that not obviously an abhorrent a supposition to make ?

By the same reasoning ( and I don't think for one minute clodagh Hawe was an abuser), to paint Alan Hawe himself as an evil calculating murderer without knowing the FULL FACTS is also pure supposition?

splinter65

dok_golf wrote: »

There seem to be an awful lot of people who are obviously more qualified then myself, someone who suffered/still at times suffers from severe depression, that have decided that Alan Hawe was evil personified. Maybe he was, but none of us know definitively what happened or what was his state of mind. For the person who said he used the word "I" a lot in the suicide note, that's what depression does. It makes you isolated, insular and depending on the severity, that "everyone is against me". In my opinion, ( and I am no expert, just someone who has suffered episodes of psychosis) there is no way that the actions of Alan Hawe were those of a sane person. It would not surprise me if something happened that put him over the edge. Professor Patricia Casey said this morning that , in her opinion, this was a psychotic episode. Alan Hawe's GP said he didn't show any symptoms of depression. Well, neither did I. Only those in my immediate family ( my wife) could see that something was wrong. I, for one, am not qualified to either pronounce him insane nor evil. I just know, from my own experience that I lean towards mental illness ( or maybe I won't allow myself to believe that such evil exists) and I think "there goes me only for the grace of god".

As you’ve discovered yourself, there is still a cohort of people in Ireland who are just itching to tell people like yourself to “build a bridge and get over it” “pull yourself together” because they really don’t believe that there’s any such thing as depression or any mental health issues, really.
You can see here how the Professor of Psychiatry is dismissed with a wave of the hand.
Posters on this thread have been frothing at the mouth for months, chomping at the bit about Alan Hawe.
You would pity anyone close to any of them that would find themselves in the pits of despair. No comfort there.

Paddy Cow

Jase Late Clergywoman wrote: »

You can excuse it any way you like, speculating on a public forum, spreading rumours, vilifying people and causing huge anguish to the remaining family is reprehensible behaviour.

Murdering your wife and children is reprehensible behaviour. People discussing that situation is not. It's perfectly understandable that people are trying to make sense of this. If one of my brothers murdered his family I know fine well that the neighbours goldfish would be talking about it. Which is exactly why I wouldn't be on the internet reading other people's opinions on the matter.

dok_golf

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

Night Falls

This is a thoroughly depressing thread which shows that we have a good bit to go before mental health is better understood. Until that changes I'm not sure we'll have much of a chance of preventing similar tragedies.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

We're not speculating that he's anything other than a man who planned the murder of his family.

Killing the stronger members of the family first to remove a "fight" from others; the notes, the leaving a warning on the door to call Gardai, even the bank account shenanigans are evidence that he was thinking clearly.

I have deep deep sympathy for anyone suffering depression, I have been there to a much lesser extent.

But he is scum and to try to find a reason "why", takes away from his guilt or tries to.

This is not a novel idea but - "SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE JUST BAD".

Your not a qualified experienced mental health professional.
Your not a qualified experienced criminal justice professional.
But your presenting your armchair amateur musings and conclusions as irrefutable fact and dismissing or ignoring actual professional opinions.
Why is that?

pjohnson

splinter65 wrote: »

As you’ve discovered yourself, there is still a cohort of people in Ireland who are just itching to tell people like yourself to “build a bridge and get over it” “pull yourself together” because they really don’t believe that there’s any such thing as depression or any mental health issues, really.
You can see here how the Professor of Psychiatry is dismissed with a wave of the hand.
Posters on this thread have been frothing at the mouth for months, chomping at the bit about Alan Hawe.
You would pity anyone close to any of them that would find themselves in the pits of despair. No comfort there.

There is mental health problems. Again mental health does not turn people into fucking murderers. You can be in the "pits of despair" and not need to exterminate your family. You have to surely pity the ignorant naive people who truly seem to believe a natural or possible part, indeed culmination, of depression is mass murder. Way to ramp up the stigma lads!

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote:

On the other hand, people tossing in depression as if it causes multiple murder, confusing psychopathy and psychosis, saying "obviously mentally ill" as if mental illness causes carefully planned murders all the time is all very useful and constructive.

I haven't been specific about any mental disorders.
Terms like mental illness are so broad that they can easily encompass disorders that could cause someone to murder.

The fact that it has to be pointed out to so many posters that not everyone with a mental illness is dangerous only highlights the ignorance of mental illness.

But your lack of knowledge of the breath of mental illnesses and disorders is not a reason to ignore the facts. Such as the fact the the expert testified that Hawe experienced a psychotic episode

dok_golf

What stigma?

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

Your not a qualified experienced mental health professional.
Your not a qualified experienced criminal justice professional.
But your presenting your armchair amateur musings and conclusions as irrefutable fact and dismissing or ignoring actual professional opinions.
Why is that?

You're. Annoys me that.

Why so dismissive ? I'm stating that I believe anyone who is capable of murdering their wife and children is 100% pure evil.

I don't know his mental state. I don't care.

I know several people battling varying stages of mental health issues.

To use their suffering as an excuse for mass murder is abhorrent.

I'm presenting no facts here. I am presenting my beliefs as I hold them.

dok_golf

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven't been specific about any mental disorders.
Terms like mental illness are so broad that they can easily encompass disorders that could cause someone to murder.

The fact that it has to be pointed out to so many posters that not everyone with a mental illness is dangerous only highlights the ignorance of mental illness.

But your lack of knowledge of the breath of mental illnesses and disorders is not a reason to ignore the facts. Such as the fact the the expert testified that Hawe experienced a psychotic episode

Actually 2 experts have stated the same, Professor Patricia Casey and Professor Harry Kennedy.

splinter65

dok_golf wrote: »

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

I don’t. Lots here do because they lack the ability to believe in that which they fail to understand and refuse to empathize with
It requires imagination and wonder to believe that someone’s brain can become so disturbed and dangerous that the person can be thinking the most horrific thoughts and planning the most unthinkable events, without giving anything away.
Not everyone gets it.

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t. Lots here do because they lack the ability to believe in that which they fail to understand and refuse to empathize with
It requires imagination and wonder to believe that someone’s brain can become so disturbed and dangerous that the person can be thinking the most horrific thoughts and planning the most unthinkable events, without giving anything away.
Not everyone gets it.

Jesus the sheer arrogance coming off this post!

We're all fools and only people who agree with you "get it" ???

Wow. just, wow.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

You're. Annoys me that.

Why so dismissive ? I'm stating that I believe anyone who is capable of murdering their wife and children is 100% pure evil.

I don't know his mental state. I don't care.

I know several people battling varying stages of mental health issues.

To use their suffering as an excuse for mass murder is abhorrent.

I'm presenting no facts here. I am presenting my beliefs as I hold them.

The fact that you would spot a typo and make it the most important point in your post would tell me that your not as much distressed about the tragic death of a woman and 3 children as you are keen to make your point, which is pointless.
The fact that you simply don’t seem to be able to grasp the very basic fact that not all mental illnesses are the same, and that some people suffer worse mental illnesses than others, renders your “beliefs” worthless I’m afraid.

murria

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Do you honestly think his parents are going to be reading this thread?

Why do you think they wouldn't? A friend of mine is a relation of the elderly couple who were found dead in their home in Naas last year. Shd said that one of the hardest things the family had to deal with was the cruel comments made by total strangers online.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Jesus the sheer arrogance coming off this post!

We're all fools and only people who agree with you "get it" ???

Wow. just, wow.

Wow just wow Peter. You can’t grasp that your friend with a mental illness is not the same as Alan Hawes mental illness, or my mothers mental illness.
They’re all the same as far as you’re concerned.
And if your friend is not murdering his family, and my mother is not murdering her family, then that makes Hawe evil, doesn’t it?
Admit it. That’s your argument in a nutshell.

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

Wow just wow Peter. You can’t grasp that your friend with a mental illness is not the same as Alan Hawes mental illness, or my mothers mental illness.
They’re all the same as far as you’re concerned.
And if your friend is not murdering his family, and my mother is not murdering her family, then that makes Hawe evil, doesn’t it?
Admit it. That’s your argument in a nutshell.

The bodies of four innocent people, three of them his own flesh and blood with knives in their throats makes him evil.

Panrich

dok_golf wrote: »

Genuine question here. Does anyone think that Hawe was in full possession of his faculties ( irrespective of whether he is evil or not) at the time of the murders?

He was certainly functional at the time in that he would have been able to write down his thoughts or use a computer as was evidenced by his transfer of money after the murders.

To be able to sit down and write five pages without faltering in resolve shows a person that was functioning at some level and in some control. In other words, he was not totally deranged as we might imagine a crazed out of control killer.

What his mental state was is obviously unknown but there was a very narcissistic tone to the reported contents of the note.

Others on here have mentioned that self absorption and depression go hand in hand where your world view can get condensed to encompass just your own orbit and this can lead to disastrous outcomes. How much control he would have had over his actions is obviously one for experts but there is no doubt that he was capable of carrying out his horrible deed with precision requiring clear mental processing.

end of the road

thierry14 wrote: »

Wish people would stop defending ***** like him

nobody is defending alan hawe. what soever. to suggest they are is just reactionary nonsense with no basis in reality.
people need to get out of the mindset of accusing people of defending people like alan hawe on the basis of them having a different viewpoint, or because they aren't sticking to a particular narrative.
people will have different views on this case, based on what bits of information that are, and will be availible. apart from the fact he murdered his family and then killed himself, we ultimately don't seem to know very much else, hence there will be speculation, and some posters will go against your viewpoint.

thierry14 wrote: »

The man was a piece of ****

Mentally ill bull**** needs to stop

whether alan hawe was or wasn't mentally ill or not i do not know, but i do know that people have a right to discuss the possibility that he was, or even wasn't. there is no such thing as "mentally ill bull" mental illness is very real and recognised whether you like it or not, so you dismissing it = you being factually wrong.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I stand by my opinion that anyone who did what he did, in the manner that he did it is scum and yes, deserves to burn in Hell.

To say otherwise would be the height of hypocrisy.

you can think what you like about alan hawe, that's not a problem. people are saying you should show consideration for both sets of parents, who have lost loved ones.

tayto lover wrote: »

I've been saying that for ages here too.
The mental health excuse is just a mask to hide an evil and vile murdering thug who had no care or empathy for his wife and children.

but how do you know it is a mask. he can be a murdering thug who had no care or empathy and still have been mentally ill. the only thing we know for definite is he murdered his wife and children and planned it.

Paul Pogba

Have the guards come out and said he planned it?? Or where is that coming from??

Electric Sheep

Considering how Alan Hawe wrote those notes and transferred funds after the murders, I wonder if he also made a will in preparation for the act. If so, it would be an interesting document.

Paddy Cow

murria wrote: »

Why do you think they wouldn't? A friend of mine is a relation of the elderly couple who were found dead in their home in Naas last year. Shd said that one of the hardest things the family had to deal with was the cruel comments made by total strangers online.

I think they wouldn't because they would have to be totally clueless to how the world works if they thought they would read anything positive about Alan. They have shown they are not stupid people by staying away from the inquest. I don't know them personally but I think they would have enough sense to stay away from the internet. This is all over the tv and newspapers which would be harder to avoid but not impossible.

If something happened that put my family into the national news, there is no way in hell I'd be reading people's opinions online. I've got real life people that I turn to for support. Even if we ended up in the papers for something good I still wouldn't read comments.