Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

PandaPoo

tayto lover wrote: »

Many victims say that emotional abuse is much worse.

As someone who suffered both, I would agree with that 100%.

Glad to see he's being removed from them.

osarusan

Candie wrote: »

Domestic abuse often includes, but is not limited to, physical violence.

Would you not agree though that the term 'wife beater' is a bit more specifically linked with physical violence though?

It would not surprise me to hear that Hawe had been guilty of it, but I don't remember ever seeing any evidence for it, and even for somebody like him, I don't think terms should be thrown about without evidence.

livedadream

red tops saying one of the letters he left asked for him to be cremated and scattered and rest buried together but letter was only given to the family after the burial by AGS.
might just be honoring his wishes...

or could be total bollocks...

livedadream

osarusan wrote: »

Candie wrote: »

Domestic abuse often includes, but is not limited to, physical violence.

Would you not agree though that the term 'wife beater' is a bit more specifically linked with physical violence though?

It would not surprise me to hear that Hawe had been guilty of it, but I don't remember ever seeing any evidence for it, and even for somebody like him, I don't think terms should be thrown about without evidence.

he hit her repeatedly with a hammer, axe and used his bare hands... you think this isnt the action of a wife beater?  remember it was a closed coffin, thats how much damage he did to her....

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

Would you not agree though that the term 'wife beater' is a bit more specifically linked with physical violence though?

It would not surprise me to hear that Hawe had been guilty of it, but I don't remember ever seeing any evidence for it, and even for somebody like him, I don't think terms should be thrown about without evidence.

Oh of course, but all I saw was the poster responding to the term domestic abuse, I didn't realise specific allegations of beating were made.

If they weren't made then it probably shouldn't be said - although he did terminate the lives of his family in an incredibly violent way, so it can't be said that he wasn't violent to them. It may have been part of a pattern of violence, or may be just the terminal act in a pattern of abuse that didn't include violence until then.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I read an article this morning about Clodagh have have pre existing injuries on her body when she died, as well as some friends she was on a Hen with a few years who claiming he followed her to Galway and demanded to know who she was sharing a room with

osarusan

livedadream wrote: »

he hit her repeatedly with a hammer, axe and used his bare hands... you think this isnt the action of a wife beater? remember it was a closed coffin, thats how much damage he did to her....

You know that doesn't answer my question though.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I read an article this morning about Clodagh have have pre existing injuries on her body when she died, as well as some friends she was on a Hen with a few years who claiming he followed her to Galway and demanded to know who she was sharing a room with

Thanks, that might be useful. Do you have a link to it?

I had read about how he followed her on a Hen party alright, but never read anything definitive at all about evidence of physical abuse such as existing injuries.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Give me a second I'll see f I can find it

livedadream

osarusan wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

he hit her repeatedly with a hammer, axe and used his bare hands... you think this isnt the action of a wife beater?  remember it was a closed coffin, thats how much damage he did to her....

You know that doesn't answer my question though.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I read an article this morning about Clodagh have have pre existing injuries on her body when she died, as well as some friends she was on a Hen with a few years who claiming he followed her to Galway and demanded to know who she was sharing a room with

Thanks, that might be useful. Do you have a link to it?

I had read about how he followed her on a Hen party alright, but never read anything definitive at all about evidence of physical abuse such as existing injuries.

allegations were made, this was backed up by the victims mother and sister speaking about domestic abuse and violence and how she didnt have a voice.
they are currently fundraising for a womens refugee in the locality. You dont do that if your sister/child was in a loving supportive happy marriage.
again he hit her with a hammer stabbed her with an axe and choked her with his bare hands. is this not domestic violence?

robbiezero

livedadream wrote: »

he hit her repeatedly with a hammer, axe and used his bare hands... you think this isnt the action of a wife beater?  remember it was a closed coffin, thats how much damage he did to her....

This is your post which clearly indicates that you are talking about prior to the murders.
How do you know he was a wife beater and how do you know he was about to be outed?

to be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had, it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.

The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by hanging.

The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much of in the immediate aftermath.

Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody 'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in death as well as life.

livedadream

duplicate post

osarusan

livedadream wrote: »

allegations were made, this was backed up by the victims mother and sister speaking about domestic abuse and violence and how she didnt have a voice.
they are currently fundraising for a womens refugee in the locality. You dont do that if your sister/child was in a loving supportive happy marriage.
again he hit her with a hammer stabbed her with an axe and choked her with his bare hands. is this not domestic violence?

Once again, I'm talking about the term 'wife beater'. If you are saying that it just means the horrific violence that caused her death, then fair enough, but I didn't get the impression that was what you meant. I don't think anybody would have got that impression from these words: he was a wife beater who was about to be outted.

The impression I got was that you meant he had been physically abusive to her (a wife-beater) before she died, and I haven't seen evidence for that specific claim.

livedadream

robbiezero wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

he hit her repeatedly with a hammer, axe and used his bare hands... you think this isnt the action of a wife beater?  remember it was a closed coffin, thats how much damage he did to her....

This is your post which clearly indicates that you are talking about prior to the murders.
How do you know he was a wife beater and how do you know he was about to be outed?

to be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had,  it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.


her sister said:

''In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation''
domestic violence.... domestic abuse...
violence makes him a wife beater. or is his sister lying?

Irish Guitarist

That's a really pathetic looking video. It looks like a 'journalist' is hiding behind a headstone videoing someone digging up a murdered womans grave on their mobile. What a shitty way to earn a living.

osarusan

livedadream wrote: »

''In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh?s situation''
domestic violence.... domestic abuse...
violence makes him a wife beater. or is his sister lying?

Yes, I've seen those comments. They also said something terrible was about to be revealed and that would have destroyed his reputation. I don't think the wider public ever found out what that was though - there was all sorts of speculation from gambling to paedophilia.

If that is enough for you to be confident in the term wife-beater, then fair enough. It's not definitive enough for me.

livedadream

osarusan wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

''In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh?s situation''
domestic violence.... domestic abuse...
violence makes him a wife beater. or is his sister lying?

Yes, I've seen those comments. They also said something terrible was about to be revealed and that would have destroyed his reputation. I don't think the wider public ever found out what that was though - there was all sorts of speculation from gambling to paedophilia.

If that is enough for you to be confident in the term wife-beater, then fair enough. It's not definitive enough for me.

so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence, thats NOT enough for you to accept it?
jesus do you need her to come back from the dead and tell you herself?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Hrududu wrote: »

I think they might have been put under a bit of pressure from the priest to do it

How do you know that? What difference would it make to the Priest, the church don't own the graveyard.

robbiezero

livedadream wrote: »

so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence, thats NOT enough for you to accept it?
jesus do you need her to come back from the dead and tell you herself?

Can you post a link to where members of his family have said it?

livedadream

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Hrududu wrote: »

I think they might have been put under a bit of pressure from the priest to do it

How do you know that? What difference would it make to the Priest, the church don't own the graveyard.

he was very well respected in the Church and community and it seems to me (only my opinion) that perhaps the families didnt realise how bad it was in the immediate aftermath or how deep the issues ran;autopsies, the rest of the letters etc were only released to the families a little after Christmas.
it looks like from my reading that they didnt realise how serious it was until it was too late (in terms of the burial obviously)

livedadream

robbiezero wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence, thats NOT enough for you to accept it?
jesus do you need her to come back from the dead and tell you herself?

Can you post a link to where members of his family have said it?

someone else posted a rake of links a few pages back, it ranges from red tops to the Sunday papers.

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown.

You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that?

I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

myshirt

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What's to say he wasn't just an evil b#stard who enjoyed watching the world burn?

We all try rationalise and make sense of these things, apply some sort of sane logic, and all that jazz, but sometimes a guy is just a plain evil b#stard.

Absolutely horrible what happened here. I look at my kids and think how would you do that.

livedadream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown.

You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that?

I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc

El_Duderino 09

livedadream wrote: »

i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc

You're drawing an arbitrary distinction there. As I said earlier it's akin to seeing mentally ill people as pitiful, do f you can't pity this guy then he couldn't be mentally ill.

As I also said earlier its easy to pay lip service to supporting mental health but the reality is different. Not all mental illness is a cuddly dose of depression. Reality isn't that simple.
Mental health doesn't only affect nice people and you font need to like someone for them to suffer mental illness.
Mental health is complicated and it's important. These are potentially the stakes.

livedadream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc

You're drawing an arbitrary distinction there. As I said earlier it's akin to seeing mentally ill people as pitiful, do f you can't pity this guy then he couldn't be mentally ill.

As I also said earlier its easy to pay lip service to supporting mental health but the reality is different. Not all mental illness is a cuddly dose of depression. Reality isn't that simple.
Mental health doesn't only affect nice people and you font need to like someone for them to suffer mental illness.
Mental health is complicated and it's important. These are potentially the stakes.

and I 100% agree with you,

but as a number of charities have come out to say, poor media standards mean the first thing people talk about is mental illness in a situation like this when there is no proof and it has flatly been denied by the family.

I have a family member who is can be violent due to schizophrenia, if I were to be murdered in my bed by him that would be the first thing to be reported.  However if my boyfriend murdered me in my bed, it would still be mentioned or suggested that he had a mental illness despite there being nothing mentally wrong with him.  what the charities tried to do was distinguish between the facts, a man murdered his wife and children and then committed suicide after leaving a number of instructions and letters about what needed to be done and way opposed to someone who was at the end of their tether and hearing voices to murder his wife and children.  it was a cold and calculated move. It was not the action of someone who was in their right state of mind at the time but that does not mean he had a mental illness.
and its unfair to label it as that.

osarusan

livedadream wrote: »

so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence

I don't think this is true. The links you referred to didn't show members of his family saying that.

There are mentions of 'abuse', but as far as I can see, only one mention of 'violence' from Clodagh's sister. And, as the post by Candie earlier highlights, not all abuse is physical abuse.

Anyway, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. Maybe Lexieonrale will be able to find that article she mentioned. Apart from that, I think I've made the point I wanted to make as best I can.

I thought this post was very fair and summed up a lot of what I thought:

Candie wrote: »

The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by hanging.

The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much of in the immediate aftermath.

Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody 'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in death as well as life.

I remember posting on the other thread that while people were absolutely right to avoid the lazy conclusion that 'he must be mentally ill' even when there was no evidence, I also thought that people were somewhat guilty of the same thing in reaching the 'he was always a monster' conclusion. I suppose they just found the argument more water-tight than I did.

Since then I've seen stuff about him (such as following his wife to that Hen party) which removes a lot of my questions about that conclusion.

But I still don't think I've seen enough to be sure that there was a history of physical violence. If others disagree, so be it.

livedadream

osarusan wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence

I don't think this is true. The links you referred to didn't show members of his family saying that.

There are mentions of 'abuse', but as far as I can see, only one mention of 'violence'. And, as the post by Candie earlier highlights, not all abuse is physical abuse.

Anyway, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. Maybe Lexieonrale will be able to find that article she mentioned. Apart from that, I think I've made the point I wanted to make as best I can.

I thought this post was very fair and summed up a lot of what I thought:

Candie wrote: »

The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the  letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to  attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered  his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children  brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by  hanging.

The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned  executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt  he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of  his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much  of in the immediate aftermath.

Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody  'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or  maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to  getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in  death as well as life.

I  remember posting on the other thread that while people were absolutely  right to avoid the lazy conclusion that 'he must be mentally ill' even when there was no evidence, I also thought that people were somewhat guilty of  the same thing in reaching the 'he was always a monster' conclusion. I suppose they just found the argument more water-tight than I did.

Since  then I've seen stuff about him (such as following his wife to that Hen  party) which removes a lot of my questions about that conclusion.

But  I still don't think I've seen enough to be sure that there was a history of physical violence. If others disagree, so be it.

Ive quoted it before and the only link i can find coz im on my phone now is the irish mirror (i know i know)
her sister used the words domestic violence...
“In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

robbiezero

livedadream wrote: »

Ive quoted it before and the only link i can find coz im on my phone now is the irish mirror (i know i know)
her sister used the words domestic violence...
“In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

Not sure actual physical violence would count as "the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs".
But maybe.

What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?

freshpopcorn

robbiezero wrote: »

What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?

He basically showed up to a hen party wanting to know what was going on!


https://www.thesun.ie/news/256456/killer-husband-alan-hawe-once-stalked-tragic-wife-clodagh-to-a-hen-weekend/

livedadream

robbiezero wrote: »

Not sure actual physical violence would count as "the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs".
But maybe.

What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?

With all due respect there are men and women all over the country that suffer from physical violence from their partners with no signs to family and friends. A lack of a visible bruise doesn't mean your not being physically abused.

robbiezero

livedadream wrote: »

With all due respect there are men and women all over the country that suffer from physical violence from their partners with no signs to family and friends. A lack of a visible bruise doesn't mean your not being physically abused.

Fair enough. I'll leave it at that.
The reason I think it is quite important to find out is that you don't want people thinking "well my partner or spouse is not physically violent to me so that could never happen us".

end of the road

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't agree with you on this one.
The events of today back up my argument. I think the family was coerced into burying them together and were not strong enough or confused at the time to object BUT they have seen the light since.

there really is no evidence of it. it's simply people looking to try and rationalise against a decisian made by the family they disagree with and that the families agreed to at the time and it's easier to think the family were bullied or coerced rather then accepting they made the decisian they felt at the time was right for them.
if any evidence does come to light that the priest "bullied" or "coerced" the families into making a decisian they didn't want then that should be given to whatever relevant authority, investigated appropriately and sanctions implemented but until then it's speculation which i'm not interested in . i'm only interested in the actual proven facts of this case.

ceadaoin.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

Why is it clear that it's a psychotic break? Couldn't it be just as likely that he was a calculating bastard who couldn't stand the thought of losing control of his family and losing his carefully crafted public image?

Being a victim of domestic abuse is a risk factor for being murdered by your abuser. Not because they have a physchotic break but because they are violent, controlling and abusive. It would be rare that a previously non abusive person suddenly snaps and murders their entire family. I don't know why some people seem so keen to paint this horrible murder as one of those instances.

political analyst

GeorgeBailey wrote: »

He's not a judge or a lawyer. He's a priest. Quite often a priest who is a family friend will come in and say a funeral mass instead of the local priest. So, no.

But a priest who didn't know either of the families involved might have been more considerate towards Clodagh's family. I suspect that the local priest cajoled her family into letting Hawe's remains be buried beside hers and their children's.

This case is completely different from a priest who is a family friend saying Mass for the funeral of someone who died in unrelated circumstances.

It is obvious that the local priest's judgement was clouded by his friendship with Hawe.

Even in the priesthood, there is such a thing as ethics, you know.

January

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

It wasn't a clear psychotic break. Again, he was an abuser, he abused his family culminating in killing them because he didn't want to be exposed as an abuser to others who thought the sun shone out of his arse. You're doing a disservice to Clodagh and her children by saying this man suffered a psychotic episode which led to him killing them, it's simply not what happened that day.

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode.

You say you can't diagnose him, then you DO diagnose him, and then you say WE are not dealing with the reality of mental health.

You are the one making up a diagnosis of a psychotic break - I am not a mental health professional, but I know that Hawe's actions do not look remotely like a psychotic break. He planned it, he wrote a note justifying it, he wrote another note and left it on the door to prevent people walking in on the scene, and then he killed himself. Completely inconsistent with a psychotic episode.

January

Her mother and sister have said it, what other evidence do you need?

jmayo

murpho999 wrote: »

Either way all the comments about 'rot in hell' and him being cowardly and disgusting actually show a complete misunderstanding of mental health issues which he clearly suffered from and no I'm not making excuses for him.

Every scumbag is now being given an out by claiming their "evilness" is down to mental illness.
It is like how every loan wolf terrorist attacker of a certain persuasion is now mentally ill.
BULLSHYTE.
And yes I know "evil" is historically a religious construct, but there is no other more descriptive term for how some people will harm others.

murpho999 wrote: »

I'm not naive, I like most people here, do not fully know the full circumstances despite what people think they know because they have read stuff on the internet so just don't get into over the top reactions.

Simple as that.

That's about the only fooking sense you have uttered here.
You do not know the circumstances and hopping on the mental illness blame game was like all his apologists who refused to countenance the idea that he was a very nasty piece of work.
When stories were released early on and tabloids expressed the views of some relatives about his true nature, there were still people harping on about his sudden mental breakdown.

The guy was a piece of sh** who pre-planned it all.
Worse still the local priest bullied a grief stricken family into pretending everything was rosy in the garden.
Utterly disgusting and a lot of people at the time had voiced their disapproval to the priests superiors.

livedadream wrote: »

true or not im sure he'd be delighted by that the sun are currently writing about him...

Actually people in this country should be more grateful to some of the British red tops and tabloids.
It was those papers that voiced the concerns of relatives early on about him, whereas the Irish excuses for journalistic print media were telling everyone how great a guy he was in the local GAA club,etc.

They neglected of course to mention there was a split in the GAA club as to carrying his coffin.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

A priest preaching about the importance of forgiveness and so on would be par for the course though surely, "bury the family together" seems straight out of the standard priest playbook. It doesn't necessarily mean he coerced them with some ulterior motive, and I'm sure his head must have been spinning too.

People often act strangely when they're in the midst of trauma, they act impulsively, out of character, counterintuitively. I've known people who've made some very peculiar decisions after the expected death of a parent, someone dealing with the violent murder of their child and grandchildren, at the hands of another family member, god only knows how their mind is coping and what they're liable to do. They've changed their minds and God love them did so in the full knowledge that it would put the story and their family history back in the public conversation, it must be seriously important to them. I hope it brings them some tiny bit of solace.

political analyst

Paisleigh Weak Peace wrote: »

A priest preaching about the importance of forgiveness and so on would be par for the course though surely, "bury the family together" seems straight out of the standard priest playbook. It doesn't necessarily mean he coerced them with some ulterior motive, and I'm sure his head must have been spinning too.

All the more reason for a priest who was a friend of Hawe not to say the funeral Mass!

Zubeneschamali

Powder Lemon wrote: »

I'm just asking, I got the impression you were very certain about it so there must have been evidence.

There is a very long closed thread here about the case. Some of us are more familiar with the details than others.

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

there really is no evidence of it. it's simply people looking to try and rationalise against a decisian made by the family they disagree with and that the families agreed to at the time and it's easier to think the family were bullied or coerced rather then accepting they made the decisian they felt at the time was right for them.
if any evidence does come to light that the priest "bullied" or "coerced" the families into making a decisian they didn't want then that should be given to whatever relevant authority, investigated appropriately and sanctions implemented but until then it's speculation which i'm not interested in . i'm only interested in the actual proven facts of this case.

The "proven facts" are that the family wanted him out of the grave and we have seen that very clearly today. Now ask yourself why it didn't happen originally and then read the priest's funeral sermon or whatever it's called.
https://www.facebook.com/NiallBoylanAtNight/photos/pb.131193550289985.-2207520000.1473024011./1116242338451763

ceadaoin.

tayto lover wrote: »

The "proven facts" are that the family wanted him out of the grave and we have seen that very clearly today. Now ask yourself why it didn't happen originally and then read the priest's funeral sermon or whatever it's called.
https://www.facebook.com/NiallBoylanAtNight/photos/pb.131193550289985.-2207520000.1473024011./1116242338451763

According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated.

It is understood the exhumation took place on the wishes of Hawe’s family. Before taking his own life, Hawe left a note saying he wanted his remains cremated and his ashes scattered in the ocean.

Apparently this wasn't known about at the time of burial. I read elsewhere that his family had previously denied the request of clodaghs family that he be moved, which was made not too long after the funerals. If that's true, how horrible for Clodaghs family. So he's been moved, not because his family are disgusted that this murderer was buried beside his victims but because it's what he wanted.

eviltwin

Is there any reason to discuss this really? Does anyone think today's decision was the wrong one?

Imagine how difficult for clodagh's family visiting the grave of their daughter/sister and grandsons/nephews knowing the reason they are dead is lying there with them.

tayto lover

ceadaoin. wrote: »

According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated.



Apparently this wasn't known about at the time of burial. I read elsewhere that his family had previously denied the request of clodaghs family that he be moved, which was made not too long after the funerals. That makes me feel sick tbh

If they were my grandkids i'd have removed him myself regardless of what his family wanted. There were lots of rumours at the time. If such a letter existed it would have been made known before now I feel.

Hannibal_Smith

robbiezero wrote: »

Yes I read the post. The questions I asked were not answered in it.
I am just interested. I have not really read that much in a long while about the case and I had not realized that they had established the reasons behind the murders.

To be fair I was wondering the same thing. I didn't realise there was reported abuse either. I don't know where the information about abuse, or likely to be exposed is coming from. I wonder how people know this?

strandroad

This article sheds more light on the circumstances of the burial and exhumation:

“At the time the funeral was arranged they were in deep shock and deep, deep distress.

"On the Thursday before the funeral, it was somehow accepted that the family would be buried together.

“But very soon after the funeral the immediate shock gave way to some other sort of emotion, and Mary and Jacqueline couldn’t understand themselves how he had been buried with them.

“They asked for Hawe to be removed. They felt he shouldn’t have been put in there in the first place and they wanted him gone.”

The only people who could give their permission for the exhumation was Alan Hawe’s parents, Olive and Stephen.

The friend explained: “Let’s just say the request was not responded to as they hoped it would be.

“So Mary and Jacqueline had to jump through hoop after hoop to get that man out of that grave.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/clodagh-hawes-mum-sister-fought-10391346

twill

Today's papers have reported that an inquest is due later this year. It's probable that this will clear up a lot of the uncertainty in relation to mental state, etc. I'd say that Clodagh Hawe's family know more than they are able to say at this point, probably having read the suicide notes. I think arguing about it is fruitless since it's going to become clear sooner or later.

political analyst

twill wrote: »

Today's papers have reported that an inquest is due later this year. It's probable that this will clear up a lot of the uncertainty in relation to mental state, etc. I'd say that Clodagh Hawe's family know more than they are able to say at this point, probably having read the suicide notes. I think arguing about it is fruitless since it's going to become clear sooner or later.

While you don't want to be too hard on the Hawe family given the circumstances, their actions in (apparently) blocking the exhumation and then saying it happened because it was his wish are really, really insulting of the victims.

I can only surmise that Alan Hawe's parents were still struggling to come to terms with his crimes at the time the request for exhumation was sent and so were simply unwilling to deal with it at the time.