Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Messengers

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is your desperate attempts to attribute the killer's actions to mental illness that stigmatises those with such problems as being a heightened risk to the public.

Irony.

I already said depression has nothing to do with murder, as you know well. So no idea how that stigmatises anything, so you can keep that pettiness. You're letting your ego get the better of you there.
Depression does however have a lot to do with suicide, this man committed suicide. Yet you say he wasn't mentally ill in any shape or form. Logic.

You're literrally saying that if he had of committed suicide and not murdered his family, he would likely have been mentally ill. But because he butchered his family, he's not mentally ill. Christ.

Junkyard Tom

Messengers wrote: »

I already said depression has nothing to do with murder, as you know well. So no idea how that stigmatises anything.

Good. We wouldn't want the millions of people diagnosed with depression being considered a risk to their loved-ones and the public, so why don't you drop it?

Logic

Let's take a look at your 'logic'.

Depression does however have a lot to do with suicide, this man committed suicide.

You have no evidence this guy was depressed and there's is no evidence that depressed people are more likely to murder their children/spouse. Until you do you should probably stop embarrassing yourself by trying to invent mitigating factors for the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

Do me a favour, before you respond any further, imagine Clodagh was your Sister and Liam, Niall and Ryan were your nephews... try being empathetic with the killer's victims.

Messengers

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Good. We wouldn't want the millions of people diagnosed with depression being considered a risk to their loved-ones and the public, so why don't you drop it?



Let's take a look at your 'logic'.



You have no evidence this guy was depressed and there's is no evidence that depressed people are more likely to murder their children/spouse. Until you do you should probably stop embarrassing yourself by trying to invent mitigating factors for the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

Do me a favour, before you respond any further, imagine Clodagh was your Sister and Liam, Niall and Ryan were your nephews... try being empathetic with the killer's victims.

Well as diagnosed with depression myself that would be the last thing I'd want to do, luckily most people with depression don't kill. And depression most certainly doesn't excuse any crime.
I just take issue with anyone who doesn't consider it a mental illness considering people are killing themselves left right and centre. And you say suicide still isn't an indication someone was depressed? Disgusting.

And don't use the victims here as leverage for emotional manipulation, I've already condemned the father for committing a vile murder but you're hell bent on accusing me of making excuses for him which you know isn't the case. There's a difference between trying to find an explanation and and making excuses.

At the risk of derailing the thread further I won't be replying to you again. RIP to victims of this crime.

Junkyard Tom

You're taking this way too personally.

Messengers wrote: »

I just take issue with anyone who doesn't consider it a mental illness.

Where have I said I don't consider depression a mental illness?

And you say suicide still isn't an indication someone was depressed? Disgusting.

No I didn't. Quote where I even implied this. You're the one suggesting depression was a factor in the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

And don't use the victims here as leverage for emotional manipulation.

I'm not trying to manipulate anyone. It's very clear to me - this family was murdered by thier Father. If it was thier Mother, Uncle, Aunt, Son, Nephew, Niece or any other relative I'd say the same.

At the risk of derailing the thread further I won't be replying to you again.

Yes, let's leave our back-and-forth there. I think you're taking this far too personally.

Ken.

Mod- Junkyard Tom and messangers for the sake of everyone please put each other on ignore.

Nesta99

I think a lot of this thread has been borderline disrespetful to the living relatives and the victims of this horrific event. Each to their own on who the class as victims really. Defining 'mental health' or moreso mental illness, I am sure, to a psychiatrist is possible but to the vast majority is open to personal opinion.

My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath as I am sure we can all agree that it would take psycopathy to commit this truly horrendous crime. That many people in their community and even family were in some way fooled as to this man's true nature would indicate to me that he lacked a conscience, a moral compass, was a selfish individual that would murder his family rather than face his reputation tarnished and for him to be alive to face the consquences of his behaviour. If being a psycopath is a mental illness then he was he was not of sound mind - i dont believe that we can box this as one term fits all as imo a psychopath is miswired somehow therefore is not mental illness in the same way as depression, an illness that has been the cause of tragic murder suicide cases. I dont believe that this case is murder suicide due to a mental illness like depression. But at the same time suicide and the brutal murder of his vulnerable wife and children is not the actions of someone who was of sane mind.

In the interview the sister says that Clodagh was planning holidays and that it seems this attack was sudden and unexpected on some level. That if risk to the children had been suspected that Clodagh would have taken whatever actions was needed to keep them safe - I am wary and aware of making comment on this as domestic abuse has so many forms and emotional/mental abuse is insidious and debilitating for any victim, often more dangerous than physical abuse. I havent read through all the thread so maybe this has been mentioned but he was to be 'outed' and his reputation destroyed - how and by whom? Did he get wind that the family were looking or hoping to escape his particularly aberrant type behaviour? Hence he did the last thing he could do to control his wife and childrens lives. A control freak that would rather murder and then take his own life rather than lose control (more of an issue imo than losing his reputation).

No matter what we may not know detailed facts, what were in the letters and that is probably a good thing for the people close to this. But turning this in to a thread on semantics, defining what can be considered mental illness, whether it is tarnishing the many people who suffer with mental illness and strive to get well etc and not to destroy lives.

I am not that sure i have made a whole load of sense but my gut is telling me that the 'debate' aspect of this thread is somehow wrong. Start a different thread on what constitutes mental illness...maybe it has been done, or discuss whether a murderer who commits suicide is a tragedy or not - i have my own opinions but i dont think this is the place to air them! There is some solace that the body of the murderer has been moved as little as it might be. The full inquest is still to be heard so it is going to be tough for the families and the indeed much of the community and country to deal with in due course. It is one of the most horrible and tragic thing to have happened in this country in my lifetime (that i am aware of) and that i know everyone will agree with regardless of varying opinions on certain things!

Apologies if I sounded like I was trying to chasten above - I think I can just see where people would differ on what really boils down to personal interpretation of certain terms.

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

such as a psychotic break.

Would you stop with the psychotic break stuff. There is no evidence that Hawe had a psychotic break, and plenty of evidence that he did not.

Well I'd say familial murder suicide is evidence that he did.
What's the evidence that he did not? That sounds like you've reached there. I can't imagine what evidence that he didn't have a psychotic break would look like but you claim to know so I'm interested...

El_Duderino 09

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Woodhenge wrote: »

I have heard that he left several letters, or at least more than one. That might even be more suggestive of disorganised thoughts or an inability to express thoughts in a coherent manner?

Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?

Apparently the killer wrote that his family couldn't cope without him - he should have consulted with Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan before brutally murdering them - I'm sure they'd have had a much different opinion.

Careful now The bit in bold almost sounds like he was having a delusional thought. And some posters are strangely married to the idea that his thinking was crystal clear at the time.

On the first point you say "Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?". What makes you think anyone is trying to excuse his actions even though nobody even mentioned excusing anything? Even if he was delusional at the time, why would that change anything? He did it whether he was delusional at the time or not.

I find this very telling. His being delusional wouldn't diminish responsibility, but it might make it more difficult to experience unadulterated outrage as it's more complicated than it first seems.  Nobody's trying to interfere with his guilt, but being open to actually understanding the causes might interfere with the venting of maximum outrage. 

Nobody has suggested any excuses for him. It's very strange that this keeps being brought up as mental health would be an excuse for his behaviour. Reality is unfortunately complicated.

El_Duderino 09

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There's no evidence the killer in this case was mentally ill. Even if the killer was mentally ill it would not be an excuse or explanation.

I'm delighted you've come around to this realisation eventually. It's incredible how many people begin by thinking that if you diagnose something then you're excusing any behaviors associated with it. That attitude is a major impediment to actually understanding what happens in mental health and knowing more about how to prevent something like this happening again in the future.

Well done on finally realising that mental health can be involved without taking away from guilt. 

I'd welcome the inquest which could hopefully shed light on on the causes, whatever they are. And help reduce the likelihood of these things happening in the future.

livedadream

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

DarTipp

yeah I agree with a lot you said , because he feared losing control over his family it drove him to carry out the murders

Hannibal_Smith

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

Can you explain the difference? And then explain which you know to be applicable here?

El_Duderino 09

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having
Mental illness? Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's incredible how many people begin by thinking that if you diagnose something then you're excusing any behaviors associated with it.

You haven't "diagnosed" anything, and nor has anyone else.

I have seen suggestions that he obviously had a psychotic break, was obviously depressed, was obviously a psychopath - but none of these things are obvious at all.

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's incredible how many people begin by thinking that if you diagnose something then you're excusing any behaviors associated with it.

You haven't "diagnosed" anything, and nor has anyone else.

I have seen suggestions that he obviously had a psychotic break, was obviously depressed, was obviously a psychopath - but none of these things are obvious at all.

I'm not able to diagnose anything, no more than yourself. I'm not trying to offer a specific clinical diagnosis beyond the obvious signs of a psychotic break (murdering the entire family and himself with a deluded note saying the family couldn't live without him).

I was pointing out that the moment I mentioned mental illness (and didn't mention guilt) posters assumed mental illness = not guilty. That's extraordinary no matter what your view on whether or not he actually had a mantel illness.

Have you found any of the 'plenty of evidence that he didn't have a psychotic break' that you mentioned earlier?

livedadream

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

Can you explain the difference?  And then explain which you know to be applicable here?

of sound mind means having the capacity to think, reason, comprehend and understand for yourself. the majority of people with a mental illness are capable of comprehending, understanding their actions in daily life the same as you or I, the same as a person with a broken leg knows their leg is broken.
mental illness can be anything from anxiety or panic attacks to eating disorders to schizophrenia.

Legally, having the capacity to think, reason, and understand for oneself.


in general a person with anorexia in the most part comprehends they are harming themselves, a person with panic attacks comprehends that it is irrational and frustrating but cannot control the attack. the same as people like my family member with schizophrenia is conscious and understands they have an illness, they are of sound mind, they are allowed drive and sign legal documents, they wouldnt be allowed if they were not of sound mind.
The idea that people with mental illnesses being manic crazies that will one day crack or snap and slaughter their families with an axe is not only insulting but its down right lazy and it purported by the media on a near constant basis.
I cant comment on which the murderer in this case was as I haven't read or seen any of the letters he left, it will however be covered by the inquest.

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm not able to diagnose anything, no more than yourself. I'm not trying to offer a specific clinical diagnosis beyond the obvious signs of a psychotic break (murdering the entire family and himself with a deluded note saying the family couldn't live without him).

Yet again you state that you cannot diagnose him and them turn around and diagnose an "obvious" psychotic break.

Since we all know you cannot diagnose him, and you have admitted you cannot diagnose him, please stop pretending you can and saying it is obvious.

It is not obvious. You do not know he had a psychotic break.

livedadream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.

pilly

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Ah. Thank you for explaining.

I'm just wondering what has made Alan Hawe different to to the other murder suicides. Is it the manner in which he did it?

For example there was a father in Wicklow or Wexford, who went off and bought coffins and everything. That wasn't a psychotic episode, but there's nothing about him. I don't end remember his name, but Alan Hawe I recognise straight away. In fact when this murder suicide happened the family of the mother didn't want him buried in the same grave and the reaction was 'ah that's harsh'.

I'm just wondering why Alan Hawe's case encouraging this reaction when none others have. Is it the Internet I wonder? Is hearing differing opinions making people second think?

In the case you're thinking of it was actually both of the couple who organised the funerals etc. and it was very evident that they both had mental health issues.

That's the difference. There were plenty of signs leading up to that case that thinks weren't normal. They were both of limited intellectual ability afaik.

pilly

Bambi985 wrote: »

Just listened to that interview - link to it is here

Very dignified interview from her sister there, she sounds like a very strong and upstanding woman in the face of so much tragedy.

Couldn't believe when she said herself and her mother have been receiving anonymous threats online - the very fact that she had to plead with the general public to act with a little more kindness to a family that has lost it all through absolutely no fault of their own? Seriously, what sort of a sociopathic scumbag do you need to be to direct online abuse at someone facing the absolute worst sort of pain a person can face? That made my blood boil.

Some posters on here caused that pain to the family and should be ashamed of themselves.

Zubeneschamali

livedadream wrote: »

who said he was a psychopath?

nesta99:

Nesta99 wrote: »

My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath

Messengers is convinced he had depression. El Duderino thinks he "obviously" had a psychotic break.

livedadream

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

who said he was a psychopath?

nesta99:

Nesta99 wrote: »

My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath

Messengers is convinced he had depression. El Duderino thinks he "obviously" had a psychotic break.

to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.

Hannibal_Smith

livedadream wrote: »

to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.

You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know. That is the point others are trying to make. You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family. So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill. You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

What he did was horrendous. It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country. But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact. I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

kylith

IMO if he had an undiagnosed mental illness it's more likely to have been narcissistic personality disorder or psychopathy than depression.

livedadream

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.

You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know.  That is the point others are trying to make.  You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family.  So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill.  You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

What he did was horrendous.  It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country.  But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact.  I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said

I cant comment on which the murderer in this case was as I haven't read or seen any of the letters he left, it will however be covered by the inquest.

as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong

pilly

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know. That is the point others are trying to make. You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family. So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill. You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

What he did was horrendous. It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country. But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact. I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.

Hannibal_Smith

livedadream wrote: »

did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said


as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong

You posted earlier in the thread

To be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had, it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.

There was no evidence of this anywhere.

And I didn't attack your post princess. I commented on it. Major difference.

Hannibal_Smith

pilly wrote: »

Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.

I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought. And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.

Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

pilly

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought. And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.

Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

I agree with you to an extent. I didn't realise that said poster had earlier said he was a wife beater.

People can say what they suspect but can't state it as fact.

livedadream

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said


as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong

You posted earlier in the thread

To be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had,  it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.

There was no evidence of this anywhere.  

And I didn't attack your post princess.   I commented on it.  Major difference.

I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.

livedadream

pilly wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know.  That is the point others are trying to make.  You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family.  So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill.  You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

What he did was horrendous.  It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country.  But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact.  I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.

thanks.

Zubeneschamali

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

The back of their trousers.

livedadream

pilly wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought.  And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.  

Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

I agree with you to an extent. I didn't realise that said poster had earlier said he was a wife beater.

People can say what they suspect but can't state it as fact.

i didnt state it as fact and if you read the post i say the sister said this this is why i think this...
it all well and good jumping on a bandwagon but read the post before you do.

Hannibal_Smith

livedadream wrote: »

I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.

Where are you getting the impression I'm wound up? And why would it matter to you whether I am or not. I replied to your comment and youre trying to make it a personal thing about you. Relax. I did not attack your post. I commented on it.

Why would you want anyone to look like a fool? It's a tragic case with the deaths of an innocent woman and her kids.

And you cannot say il what it is right or wrong to link Alan Hawe's actions to, because you don't know.

Hannibal_Smith

livedadream wrote: »

i didnt state it as fact and if you read the post i say the sister said this this is why i think this...
it all well and good jumping on a bandwagon but read the post before you do.

:pac: :pac: :pac:

livedadream

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.

Where are you getting the impression I'm wound up?  And why would it matter to you whether I am or not.  I replied to your comment and youre trying to make it a personal thing about you.  Relax.  I did not attack your post.  I commented on it.

Why would you want anyone to look like a fool?  It's a tragic case with the deaths of an innocent woman and her kids.

And you cannot say il what it is right or wrong to link Alan Hawe's actions to, because you don't know.

calling me princess what probably what did it...

Boom_Bap

MOD

Can you please stop aiming comments at each other in this thread place and stick to the topic.

Cheers.

El_Duderino 09

livedadream wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.

I used the psychopath example as a poster above said he was a psychopath which couldn't be a mental illness because a psychopath is 'wired wrong'. As for depression, it can be chemical and it can have physical pathology such as brain damage. I as asking about that distinction because of the number of posters who described him as a psychopath but also said he want mentally ill.

A lot of posters are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill. That seems to be very important for some people and that's interesting in and of itself.

There's some evidence of domestic abuse before the killing but it's not great evidence and it's disputed within the family. Beyond that you have a man who was generally well regarded in the community (that's not to say he was a great guy but it's the evidence we have). Then he committed a horrific act which is out of keeping with his previous behaviour accompanied by a note with delusional reasoning. It's hard to explain that without a psychotic break.

livedadream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.

I used the psychopath example as a poster above said he was a psychopath which couldn't be a mental illness because a psychopath is 'wired wrong'. As for depression, it can be chemical and it can have physical pathology such as brain damage. I as asking about that distinction because of the number of posters who described him as a psychopath but also said he want mentally ill.

A lot of posters  are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill. That seems to be very important for some people and that's interesting in and of itself.

There's some evidence of domestic abuse before the killing but it's not great evidence and it's disputed within the family. Beyond that you have a man who was generally well regarded in the community (that's not to say he was a great guy but it's the evidence we have). Then he committed a horrific act which is out of keeping with his previous behaviour accompanied by a note with delusional reasoning. It's hard to explain that without a psychotic break.

I agree, but its hard to know, its one of those things, i do distinguish between mental illness and a psychotic break but many people including professionals dont, and I honestly dont know what happened in that house bar the facts and really when it comes down to it is all we know is, five people died in that house, one by suicide.
i can see where people are eager to distinguish ithe act of murder from mental illness though. It gets such bad press and is already such a sensitive subject in Ireland, its better or err on the side of caution i reckon.

nice_guy80

just reminds me what a sad tragic incident this was
and what suffering the family were going through before the murders

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A lot of posters are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill.

I don't believe anyone has said he couldn't be mentally ill.

All I am saying is that there is no evidence that he was mentally ill, and that saying he must have been mentally ill because he murdered his children is a horrible slur on people who actually are mentally ill.

If some actual evidence comes out showing that he had a psychotic break - like his notes turn out to say he thought his family had been replaced by demons or the pathologist reports a huge brain tumour or something, I will be quite relieved.

It is shocking to think that a man who is seen as a pillar of the local community can turn out to be capable of planning and carrying out the brutal murders of his wife and children because he sees no way out, decides to kill himself, and thinks his family are better off murdered than living without him.

Because right now, in the absence of new evidence, that's how it looks. There is no sign that he was depressed or psychotic, and if he was a psychopath, he concealed it very well for many years.

Bambi985

I think we tell ourselves he is some sort of anomaly, a psychopath or just the personification of evil as a means of comforting ourselves, safe in the knowledge that someone like Alan Hawe couldn't be that ordinary dad next door that everyone respects and that coaches the local GAA team and that goes to mass every Sunday.

I'm not sure if it's an Irish phenomenon, probably a human thing really, but I've seen this before with murder suicides and even with the more common crisis of suicide in Ireland. This sort of "where his head was at we'll never understand" etc etc. Yet it's happening at an alarming rate.

Without any comment or speculation whatsoever on Hawe's state of mind or motives as I have absolutely no idea and nor do any of us, I think it's time the authorities and our politicians and our media look this problem in the eye - why is it happening with such frequency in Ireland? Why have their been 27 cases in the last 17 years? Why does any Garda investigation that does occur end at the inquest? What aren't we getting here, that prevents this crime from being as rare as it should be? And why is there absolutely no significant research done on this events by the state, when they are clearing not one-off events that happen once every 20 years?

.........

People who are mentally ill commit crimes all the time, hence hospital prisons for the criminally insane.

People who are not mentally ill commit crimes all the time, hence prisons.

A court decides based on professional medical evidence who's criminally mentally ill and who's not. No one else.

Who cares if Hawe was mentally ill or not, without the proper medical evidence and professional opinion, the speculation is pointless.

It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill or not, nothing excuses what he did.

El_Duderino 09

......... wrote:

It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill or not, nothing excuses what he did.

I agree with that but this last line keeps coming up completely unprompted. Why would anyone even think that mental illness would excuse it?

Serious question to the posters who keep bringing up the notion of mental illness being an excuse; do you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour? That's the only thing that explains why posters keep bringing up the word 'excuse' when nobody who suggested mental health even mentioned or suggested excusing anything.

tayto lover

There is no excuse for what Hawe did. Absolutely none.

.........

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I agree with that but this last line keeps coming up completely unprompted.

It isn't "unprompted". It's in response to some people claiming it excuses it, or others complaining they don't want him labelled mentally ill in case it gives mentally ill people 'a bad name', or those determined to stereotype and pigeon hole Hawe for their own political points.

So, it's pretty simple, in case anyone's confused, mentally ill, sane or not at the time or not, nothing excuses his actions.

Whatever else Hawe happened to be or not to be, what he did only gives Hawe a bad name, no one else.

El_Duderino 09

......... wrote:

It isn't unprompted, it's in response to some people claiming it excuses it, or others people complaining they don't want him labelled mentally ill in case it gives mentally ill people 'a bad name'. Neither of which is correct.

I don't think anyone said it did. Maybe you can point to an example but I think if you look for one, to find that what happened was this. Posters mention mental health and say nothing about excusing anything. Lots of posters respond with posts to the effect that 'that's ridiculous, stop
trying to excuse his actions, how can you excuse his actions, it can't be mental health as there is no excuse, etc'.

......... wrote:

So, it's pretty simple, in case anyone's confused, mentally ill, sane or not at the time or not, nothing excuses his actions.

Nobody even suggested it did. You're again answering the question that absolutely nobody has asked. This idea of mental health being an excuse has come up completely unprompted again.

If someone has said mental health would excuse his behaviour, then please do quote it. It would put my mind at ease as to why it keeps being brought up.

.........

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think anyone said it did. Maybe you can point to an example but I think if you look for one, to find that what happened was this. Posters mention mental health and say nothing about excusing anything. Lots of posters respond with posts to the effect that 'that's ridiculous, stop
trying to excuse his actions, how can you excuse his actions, it can't be mental health as there is no excuse, etc'.


Nobody even suggested it did. You're again answering the question that absolutely nobody has asked. This idea of mental health being an excuse has come up completely unprompted again.

If someone has said mental health would excuse his behaviour, then please do quote it. It would put my mind at ease as to why it keeps being brought up.

You must be reading different social media and media. Lots of the coverage and commentary is obsessed if he was sane or not, or showed signs of mental illness or not and what factor it played. I don't care if he was or not.

El_Duderino 09

......... wrote:

You must be reading different social media and media. Lots of the coverage and commentary is obsessed if he was sane or not, or showed signs of mental illness or not and what factor it played. I don't care if he was or not.

Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? You said they did so I'm seriously asking if you read any posts that did make that claim.

.........

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? You said they did so I'm seriously asking if you read any posts that did make that claim.

I'm not reading 20 pages to find out, you're the one obsessed by it not me.

Tell us why so many people think his mental health at the time is important ?
and why is there so much discussion about it ? Or better still try asking those that care what his mental health was at the time and why ? Because I don't care what it was, so obsess somewhere else.

I'll make whatever statement I like without being 'asked a question' or obtaining your special permission to make it.

Here it is again.

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NOTHING EXCUSES WHAT HE DID.

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