Friends relationship maddens me - can I say something?

optogirl

Hi all - looking for opinions here (and jaysus knows they're plentiful on Boards ) . I am good friends with a couple - have known her (we'll call her Mary) since secondary school & him (let's call him John)* since college and was good friends with both for years before they became a couple. They are now together about 15 years and to be honest I always thought they were a bit mismatched & there may have been a degree of 'settling' but each to their own. Individually they are both really nice but a few things I've noticed are really making me angry with him and I worry that I wont be able to hold my tongue.

They have 2 kids, youngest is circa 3 months old. When baby 1 was born, Mary told me that she was getting up during the night & every morning 7 days a week with baba. I said I thought that was pretty unfair & that he should be doing at least one weekend morning & night to give her a break. She said yeah and that she would talk to him & I heard no more about it.

Fast forward and baby number 2 is here.
I recently suggested meeting her for dinner & she said she would 'work on John' to see if he's agreeable to this as he isn't keen on doing nighttime on his own. A few texts later and she asks if we could possibly do the following afternoon instead.

I had already gotten the strong impression that he was pretty useless when it came to the kids but now am worried that she is going to be really isolated for the foreseeable. They've moved out of Dublin where most of their friends live & are already unable to attend any impromptu nights out or even people's birthday pints etc. I really feel like he needs to cop on & come to the realisation that he is the children's parent and should be able to be on his own with them. Am I over reacting? Am I interfering if I say something? Opinions welcome (I may live to regret that)


*they don't own a shop on Craggy Island

Kristopherus

Any chance you would butt out and mind your own business? You're asking for troubleif you interfere.

optogirl

Kristopherus wrote: »

Any chance you would butt out and mind your own business? You're asking for troubleif you interfere.

there's every chance yeah.

osarusan

You might get better advice (or at least, advice minus the wisecracks) in the Personal Issues forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=127

Anyway, it seems like you have said your piece to her. I'm not sure what more you can do.

optogirl

oneilla wrote: »

What does the friend think of this arrangement?

She seems to think it's normal -' that's men for you'. Despite all her friends fellas being very hands on Dads. Seems resigned & is putting up

Kimbot

Mod Moved to PI as its more appropriate in there

Zulu

<not appropriate once moved to pi>

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

imitation

What? So your saying you need to sort out there relationship so she can come out for a few pints with you and her mates? They have young kids, they have other priorities.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

It seems to me like you're beginning to miss 'Mary' and the fact that she's not as available anymore. Child 2 and a move out of Dublin will generally do this kind of thing to people. Impromptu nights out are sort of off the menu when priorities change in this way.

A lot of my friends are beginning to settle down the same way and to get everyone together is an absolute nightmare these days, but that's life!

optogirl

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He's actually not working at the moment (recently made redundant - happy enough about that so not an issue). He wont be doing loads of housework! I know this guy well and that is not his forte.

Even if that was the case, I still think she shouldn't have to 'work on him' to be given permission to go out one evening for dinner with several weeks notice

optogirl

imitation wrote: »

What? So your saying you need to sort out there relationship so she can come out for a few pints with you and her mates? They have young kids, they have other priorities.

No I'm not - I'm saying that she has said she can't come out because he can't do nighttime on his own

optogirl

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

It seems to me like you're beginning to miss 'Mary' and the fact that she's not as available anymore. Child 2 and a move out of Dublin will generally do this kind of thing to people. Impromptu nights out are sort of off the menu when priorities change in this way.

A lot of my friends are beginning to settle down the same way and to get everyone together is an absolute nightmare these days, but that's life!

I know that - I have 2 kids myself - I am not worried about her not being around in Dublin anymore - dinner was planned for halfway between her & me, no pints, both driving. She can't come because he, and I quote, 'isn't keen' on doing nighttime

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

optogirl

sashafierce wrote: »

Its not really your place to say anything. Even if you do, do you think she will side with you? Because she wont, it will cause a fall out between you and her it wont resolve anything.
Why not call to her place for a meet up or suggest she brings the kids along?

We do that all the time. I wanted to go out for dinner with her because I don't think she's been out of the house in months without both kids

ash23

OP there could be a few things going on here.
It's quite possible that John is a lazy sod and completely useless and Mary passively puts up with it. There's nothing you can really do about that as it's up to her to change it.

She might be using the baby as an excuse not to go out to dinner. If he's not working and they've two small kids, money might be very very tight and she can't afford to drop 50 quid on a dinner but is too embarrassed to say. Or she's wrecked and doesn't want to go out late and is using him/the kids as a reason to meet early.

She might be controlling when it comes to the kids and not trust him to mind them properly. I know a few women like this. Complain that the father does nothing and is useless but when he does do anything he's criticised for not doing it "right" (aka HER way) and she takes over then anyway.

None of the above you can do anything about.

I would suggest if you're genuinely concerned about her becoming isolated then, while the kids are small, arrange things that suit her more. Like a lunch date or stay over in her house with a bottle of wine and a takeaway.

GingerLily

Maybe she doesn't want to leave her kids and go out with you?
Partner's pretend to blame each other all the time when they want to avoid going out, her youngest is only 3 months still, very young!

She's telling you her husbands uncomfortable doing the night routine but it's just as likely she's not comfortable leaving them at night time

optogirl

ash23 wrote: »

OP there could be a few things going on here.
It's quite possible that John is a lazy sod and completely useless and Mary passively puts up with it. There's nothing you can really do about that as it's up to her to change it.

She might be using the baby as an excuse not to go out to dinner. If he's not working and they've two small kids, money might be very very tight and she can't afford to drop 50 quid on a dinner but is too embarrassed to say. Or she's wrecked and doesn't want to go out late and is using him/the kids as a reason to meet early.

She might be controlling when it comes to the kids and not trust him to mind them properly. I know a few women like this. Complain that the father does nothing and is useless but when he does do anything he's criticised for not doing it "right" (aka HER way) and she takes over then anyway.

None of the above you can do anything about.

I would suggest if you're genuinely concerned about her becoming isolated then, while the kids are small, arrange things that suit her more. Like a lunch date or stay over in her house with a bottle of wine and a takeaway.

Scenario 1 is most likely. Also there may well be an element of her not trusting him to do it on his own but she responded within seconds to my suggestion of meeting for dinner with an YES PLEASE! Money is definitely not an issue - he recently got massive redundancy (was with company 20 years), she has a very good job. We meet up with the kids all the time, I really just wanted to her to have a couple of hours off.

optogirl

GingerLily wrote: »

Maybe she doesn't want to leave her kids and go out with you?
Partner's pretend to blame each other all the time when they want to avoid going out, her youngest is only 3 months still, very young!

She's telling you her husbands uncomfortable doing the night routine but it's just as likely she's not comfortable leaving them at night time

I know her husband very well. He is uncomfortable doing the night routine. He is uncomfortable with growing up tbh. I think he needs to cop on and do it. She may feel he will struggle but I genuinely get the impression that she is trying to persuade him to 'let' her go out for a couple of hours. Not that he is some kind of controlling pri*k but that he balks at the responsibility.

Big Bag of Chips

I think ash may have hit the nail on the head. And there's a very good chance it's one of all of those! Women can be their own worst enemy when it comes to their children! I know I was definitely guilty of feeling that he couldn't manage for long without me. Which in turn led him to believe he couldn't manage for long without me!

Whatever you think of them as a couple they are together 15 years and have two kids. Me and my husband might seem mismatched to people looking in at us, in the early days I did the bulk of the work with them. I have 4 children and he NEVER did a night feed. But 17 years later we're still together and it works for us.

If she's annoyed by anything it's up to her to address it. It's not your place to be annoyed on her behalf.

optogirl

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I think ash may have hit the nail on the head. And there's a very good chance it's one of all of those! Women can be their own worst enemy when it comes to their children! I know I was definitely guilty of feeling that he couldn't manage for long without me. Which in turn led him to believe he couldn't manage for long without me!

Whatever you think of them as a couple they are together 15 years and have two kids. Me and my husband might seem mismatched to people looking in at us, in the early days I did the bulk of the work with them. I have 4 children and he NEVER did a night feed. But 17 years later we're still together and it works for us.

If she's annoyed by anything it's up to her to address it. It's not your place to be annoyed on her behalf.

Fair enough.

witchgirl26

OP be careful about butting in - you're only getting pieces of the story and there could be various things happening:

1. John is an awful partner and does nothing but sit around when he comes home from work (presuming he's working) except watch Mary run around after 3 children;
2. Mary doesn't really like going out in the evenings anymore because of the kids and wanting to be there for bedtime and is using John as an excuse (trust me this does happen);
3. John might feel nervous looking after 2 children by himself. As the youngest is only 3 months old and if he's working full time during the day, this might not be unreasonable as he might not have too much time with both of them by himself and it can be daunting.


And they're just 3 that I can think of off the top of my head. It all depends on the dynamic of their relationship. I know friends of mine where the mam does all the getting up during the night with their kids and getting up in the morning with them every day but he works really long hours so she sees it as giving him a chance to rest at the weekend mornings. He does a shed load of other stuff though that doesn't get talked about a huge amount.

Honestly I think you should keep quiet on this one as I don't know what you expect to gain from saying anything? Even if they hadn't moved, impromptu nights out with kids just don't happen I've found with friends. Even with friends who have the most supportive partners on earth.

Lux23

To be honest if he was my mate I would have no problem in telling him I think he is a lazy b*****% and that he should cop on and let his lovely wife out every once in a while. There is probably the two of them in it but perhaps they need someone to point it out in order to resolve it?

keeponhurling

Mothers of 3-month old babies (plus an older one) don't go out for pints that often, in my experience. Or inpromptu nights out.

optogirl

keeponhurling wrote: »

Mothers of 3-month old babies (plus 2 older ones) don't go out for pints that often, in my experience.

Lads - I am talking about a dinner , no pints involved. She has 2 kids, so do I.

keeponhurling

optogirl wrote: »

keeponhurling wrote: »

Mothers of 3-month old babies (plus 2 older ones) don't go out for pints that often, in my experience.

Lads - I am talking about a dinner , no pints involved. She has 2 kids, so do I.

I reckon best to just let it go.

njs030

optogirl wrote: »

Lads - I am talking about a dinner , no pints involved. She has 2 kids, so do I.

I think it's best not to get involved unless she asks for your opinion, you don't truly know what goes on in someone else's relationship from the outside.

ncmc

I would be slow to say anything to be honest. Some couples have an incredibly one sided relationship when it comes to housework/cooking/childcare etc. And while it can be maddening to watch from the sidelines, it?s really nobodies business but their own. Does Mary seem unhappy with the situation? If she is unhappy about it, maybe you could broach it with her, and encourage her to tackle John about the inequality of it. But if she?s happy enough, then I don?t see what is to be gained by saying anything, she more than likely will defend him to the hilt. 3 months is still pretty young, especially if she is breast feeding, a lot of dads might be freaked out with being left on their own with a three month old for the first time. Look, I?m not saying it?s right, and it does sound like he?s just a lazy so and so but I wouldn?t go meddling in other peoples relationship unless there was something really serious going on.

My sister has a husband like that, her kids are older now, but when they were younger, she literally did everything. To this day, she does all the housework, all the cooking, all the laundry and ironing, she is like a slave to him. In some ways she seems to enjoy being like a stepford wife, I think it makes her feel needed. We?ve tried to say it to her, but it falls on deaf ears so we?ve just stopped bothering. It?s frustrating, but there?s nothing to be done. Just be there for her if she does decide she needs to talk about it and make changes.

SteM

optogirl wrote: »

He's actually not working at the moment (recently made redundant - happy enough about that so not an issue). He wont be doing loads of housework! I know this guy well and that is not his forte.

Even if that was the case, I still think she shouldn't have to 'work on him' to be given permission to go out one evening for dinner with several weeks notice

A lot of people use their kids/relationship as an excuse for getting out of things they don't want to do. Maybe she doesn't want to go out at night or feels she can't afford it because her OH isn't working? I know when my wife had our kid she had no interest in socalisiing but time to herself reading or relaxing in the bath was very important to her.

LegacyUser

optogirl wrote: »

I really just wanted to her to have a couple of hours off.

So why don't you offer to take her kids for a few hours and let her off to the cinema or a walk in the park by herself. Maybe she doesn't want to meet up because she's stuck at home with kid and husband all day and just wants time to herself and just herself.

optogirl

can't log in wrote: »

So why don't you offer to take her kids for a few hours and let her off to the cinema or a walk in the park by herself. Maybe she doesn't want to meet up because she's stuck at home with kid and husband all day and just wants time to herself and just herself.

Well I have 2 kids myself so it might be a stretch to have 4 under 5 but sure, it's an option. It doesnt speak to the fact that she does want to go out on this particular occasion but has to 'work on him' to do it.

Big Bag of Chips

Maybe she's telling you she would like to go out, but really has no interest, but using him as an excuse. You say you're going for dinner, no drinks, meeting half way. So its not like he's actually doing "night time" by himself. He'd be doing a couple of hours, after the children have most likely been put to bed.

I think she's making an excuse.

Of course the only way to know is to ask her straight out. But if you do and she is making an excuse then she's hardly likely to admit that to you.

optogirl

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Maybe she's telling you she would like to go out, but really has no interest, but using him as an excuse. You say you're going for dinner, no drinks, meeting half way. So its not like he's actually doing "night time" by himself. He'd be doing a couple of hours, after the children have most likely been put to bed.

I think she's making an excuse.

Of course the only way to know is to ask her straight out. But if you do and she is making an excuse then she's hardly likely to admit that to you.

I've known this girl for 25 years. I know from the response to the original suggestion that she really does want to. I've known him almost 20 years and I know he has a bit of a Peter Pan complex
But really hoped he'd step up a bit. However, it's true that it's not my business and it's up to her to speak up or put up. Another friend is going too so we'll be there and if she joins us I'll be delighted.

groovyg

optogirl wrote: »

Lads - I am talking about a dinner , no pints involved. She has 2 kids, so do I.

Could she bring the baby with her and leave the eldest with him? Is she breast feeding, if she is she probably can't leave three month at home.
Also some women are there own worst enemies and won't let husband do anything. I remember when one of my by colleagues had her first kid she was ridiculously controlling and barely let him change the kids nappy, if he held the kid and it started crying she would be freaking that he was hurting her, by the time 3rd came along she was the handing the baby to him.

LegacyUser

She's getting up nights and all the early mornings 7 days a week. Maybe she's too tired to meet for an evening dinner? She doesn't have an issue meeting you in the afternoon, so it's not like John is holding her captive or anything.



It sounds like you're a bit put out she prioritizes her family over meeting you when you desire.

LegacyUser

Hmm. I mean obviously you have other reasons to get your back up a bit about it. But seriously - I have a one and 2 year old and when the younger was 3 months old, I personally wouldn't have been mad about being left to do bedtime alone. Never mind leaving himself to do it. It's just a two person job at that stage (we felt anyway). Worse if you're breastfeeding as they're still so small.

What we did do was, if one of us went out, we just went round 8pm, when the older child was in bed or almost in bed and the bulk of the work was done. That could be an option either. In some ways I get where she's coming from, but in other ways, if she hasn't really had a chance to get out without the kids, she does need that time.

To be honest - I'd say nothing. It's not your business right now and if you have 2 kids yourself, you should know that the first few months are total chaos. Aside from anything else, she may simply not be up to an evening out, she may be too tired.God knows I'm bloody exhausted every evening....

LegacyUser

optogirl wrote: »

Well I have 2 kids myself so it might be a stretch to have 4 under 5 but sure, it's an option. It doesnt speak to the fact that she does want to go out on this particular occasion but has to 'work on him' to do it.

Honestly OP it just feels like you're projecting. It's their relationship, just because it's not how you would want to be with a partner doesn't mean it's not what they want. If you think there's genuine abuse either emotional or physical then yes talk to your friend about it and try and get her help but it honestly sounds like they are just living their lives in a why that they chose. Just because you've known both for a long time doesn't mean you know their relationship.

Just because she replied quickly to the invite for food doesn't mean she's trapped and needs to get out. I've replied quickly to invites like that before and then thought about and just not felt up to but rather than back track I'll make an excuse.

optogirl

Bingilio wrote: »

She's getting up nights and all the early mornings 7 days a week. Maybe she's too tired to meet for an evening dinner? She doesn't have an issue meeting you in the afternoon, so it's not like John is holding her captive or anything.



It sounds like you're a bit put out she prioritizes her family over meeting you when you desire.

No it's really more to do with him. These people arent strangers to me. I accept that it's hard to put context into it all but rest assured I'm not even slightly put out by her.

infogiver

optogirl wrote: »

She seems to think it's normal -' that's men for you'. Despite all her friends fellas being very hands on Dads. Seems resigned & is putting up

What would your objective be in "saying something "?
What outcome do you think could be achieved?
You have to ask yourself honestly if you expect that he might suddenly start helping your friend more if you interfere, or if it's just a case of you being boiling mad and wanting to let them both no how you feel so you can vent?
Which is it?

optogirl

can't log in wrote: »

Honestly OP it just feels like you're projecting. It's their relationship, just because it's not how you would want to be with a partner doesn't mean it's not what they want. If you think there's genuine abuse either emotional or physical then yes talk to your friend about it and try and get her help but it honestly sounds like they are just living their lives in a why that they chose. Just because you've known both for a long time doesn't mean you know their relationship.

Just because she replied quickly to the invite for food doesn't mean she's trapped and needs to get out. I've replied quickly to invites like that before and then thought about and just not felt up to but rather than back track I'll make an excuse.

I don't think she's trapped - I think he's not pulling his weight and she feels a bit unable to pull him up on it. Anyway, I am now realising that asking strangers to understand the context etc was foolish & a I had a bit of a rush of blood to the head. Thanks to everyone who responded without being snarky or rude. I have no intention of trying to be some kind of mediator in their relationship nor do I have any desire to see any damage done to it - I love them both very much. I really just wondered if I made a remark like 'Sure he's their Dad isn't he' or some such, whether I would hurt her or maybe give her a spark to gently nudge him. Anyway, thanks again.

infogiver

optogirl wrote: »

I don't think she's trapped - I think he's not pulling his weight and she feels a bit unable to pull him up on it. Anyway, I am now realising that asking strangers to understand the context etc was foolish & a I had a bit of a rush of blood to the head. Thanks to everyone who responded without being snarky or rude. I have no intention of trying to be some kind of mediator in their relationship nor do I have any desire to see any damage done to it - I love them both very much. I really just wondered if I made a remark like 'Sure he's their Dad isn't he' or some such, whether I would hurt her. Anyway, thanks again.

Seriously though, you really need to ask yourself 2 questions:
1. What do you hope to achieve?
2. Why are you thinking about getting involved?

Big Bag of Chips

The general consensus is that you should say nothing, yet you seem to be leaning more towards saying something because of your history with both of them. You are the one best placed to decide.

But, as infogiver asks, what would be your reasons for saying something, and do you believe after you've said what you need to say that the situation would improve (in your eyes)?

Big Bag of Chips

optogirl wrote: »

I really just wondered if I made a remark like 'Sure he's their Dad isn't he' or some such, whether I would hurt her. Anyway, thanks again.

If your issue is with him, shouldn't you raise it with him? Rather than dropping hints at her. She no doubt knows he's their father! But if HE has said that HE'S not comfortable to do nights by himself or he has never done a night feed or an early morning then the issue is him, not her. So if you know them both a very long time, and feel that you should say something then it's him you should be saying something to.

I just think as a new mother, to a very young baby, you can be vulnerable, exhausted and emotional enough without feeling your friends are taking a dig at your husband through you, or criticising how you and he manage your lives.

Of course she may be grateful that someone else sees he's not much help, but again where we might give out about them we tend to defend our own against outside criticism.

optogirl

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

The general consensus is that you should say nothing, yet you seem to be leaning more towards saying something because of your history with both of them. You are the one best placed to decide.

But, as infogiver asks, what would be your reasons for saying something, and do you believe after you've said what you need to say that the situation would improve (in your eyes)?

I'm going to say nothing. Thanks again

Xterminator

Hi Op

i think thats wise. be there for your friend, offer to do playdates say yuou cna keep in touch and she can have a social contact, but their relationship is private, and unless your friend actually asks for your opinion, keep it to yourself.

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This post has been deleted.

pc7

I think you're right to say nothing, I've two young babies and I've no interest whatsoever of being out at night. I'd spend the meal thinking I should be sleeping as that's when the longest stretch happens here. I meet the girls for lunch or afternoon catch ups so I can go to bed early!! Maybe Mary's the same.
Either way leave them too it, they've lasted 15 years with two smallies so ain't doing too bad themselves!

rondog

This guy sounds like a complete douche.Isnt keen on doing night times with his own kids??Grow a pair you imbecile.
As the OP said ,its not pints just a dinner.If he cant be on his own for a few hours with his own kids he is a complete waste of oxygen.Hes unemployed so its not like he has to get up for work and be fresh the following day.

optogirl

rondog wrote: »

This guy sounds like a complete douche.Isnt keen on doing night times with his own kids??Grow a pair you imbecile.
As the OP said ,its not pints just a dinner.If he cant be on his own for a few hours with his own kids he is a complete waste of oxygen.Hes unemployed so its not like he has to get up for work and be fresh the following day.

Rondog! Although I have come to the decision that I'll say nothing & just be there for her if she decides to vent, I must say your post gave me a big cheer up! :P After all the 'Actually OP, it sounds like the problem is you' posts, I needed that!
Thanks.