Is it worth it anymore..... ?

Slutmonkey57b

Chuchote wrote: »

Now, this is just my observation as a random gobshíte, but it seems to me that in the last five years there has been a huge rise in numbers of cars, and also a huge rise in the number of very young drivers (so both more likely to be reckless and less likely to be experienced). Am I wrong in this?

I'm not sure, but it's the type of thing which has to be factored in when doing this type of analysis. However the speed-trap claims deliberately avoid those sorts of factors, allocating all improvements to the introduction of speed traps. The actual effect of a given speed trap on reducing accidents, or deaths, needs more data than they are willing to collect or provide.

For example, does "speeding" cause deaths? In one example, you may have a motorist doing 150 down a motorway and piling into the back of a car which is slowing down unexpectedly, heading for the hard shoulder. In another, you may have a motorist doing 32 in a 30kph zone who killed a pedestrian while looking over their shoulder at something their passenger pointed at. Was speed a factor in both? Both drivers were technically speeding. Both could technically have potentially avoided the accident if they were travelling at a lower speed.

If speeding is a known factor, what degree of excess speed is a meaningful factor? 1kph probably isn't, 10kph is a radically different factor when you're going from 20 to 30 than it is going from 80 to 90. Equally, speeding is commonly used as a metric for increased braking distances. However those braking distances were set decades ago when cars took 3 times as long to stop. The condition of the car also has an effect on braking distances - two identical vehicles will stop differently if one has bald brake pads.

What is the relationship between speed as a factor in collisions and road surface? Or road width? Or whether the road is along a built up area? The speeder doing 40 round a blind corner in a 30 zone next to a school has a much higher chance of causing a fatality than one doing 90 in a straight line 80 zone on the N4.

mcgratheoin

No

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The only deaths-related numbers are quoted as follows;

The entirety of chapter 5 deals with collisions broken into fatal, serious injury and minor injury. There are a plethora of death related numbers there. For example:

each year during the 2005-2010 period, before the introduction of the cameras, saw an average of 59 people lose their lives at the camera site locations but this number had fallen to just over 20 once the cameras had become operational - a prima facie saving of 39 lives each year.

the fatality figures in that thesis show that average deaths at camera sites decreased by 65.73% while at non-camera sites they decreased by 35.19%.

swanner wrote:

On the contrary, I spent quite a few hours comparing the RSA collision data with known speed van locations.

Present your data so. Show me evidence that speed van locations (there's a list of them available here) are in areas where there have been zero collisions. I'm a scientist and if I see new data I have no problem changing my mind.

magicbastarder

heh, those locations are in lat/long format so it'd be a bloody tiresome task to pinpoint them all on a map.

The Bishop Basher

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Present your data so. Show me evidence that speed van locations (there's a list of them available here) are in areas where there have been zero collisions.

Not possible as the RSA no longer make collision location data available to the public..

I wonder why :rolleyes:

Happy to link to my original post though..

Swanner wrote: »

No problem...

The R118 between the M50 and the CWD roundabout. Go safe vans are regularly parked on both sides of the road and a traffic cop on a motorcycle is often parked up by the roundabout catching people heading down towards CWD. The speed limit is 80kph. There have been no serious incidents or fatalities however the Wyatville Road has had both. I have yet to see a go safe van on the Wyatville road and I drive it every day.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cherrywood+Business+Park,+Loughlinstown&hl=en&ll=53.242568,-6.148267&spn=0.000051,0.039783&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.188352,20.368652&oq=cherrywood&hnear=Cherrywood+Business+Park,+Bray+Rd,+Loughlinstown,+County+Dublin&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.242984,-6.147499&panoid=5Pb4a2g0Nz7FiXGPuyE6BQ&cbp=12,87.76,,0,-0.47

The southern Cross Rd in Bray. Speed limit is 60kph. Again, a GoSafe van is regularly parked on the east bound side and AGS are often hidden in an entrance to an estate on the Eastern end of the road. Again no serious incidents or fatalities here however unfortunately both have occurred on surrounding roads.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cherrywood+Business+Park,+Loughlinstown&hl=en&ll=53.181761,-6.127625&spn=0.043618,0.31826&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.188352,20.368652&oq=cherrywood&hnear=Cherrywood+Business+Park,+Bray+Rd,+Loughlinstown,+County+Dublin&t=m&layer=c&cbll=53.181665,-6.127759&panoid=C9TaeTv2nzvKX5NhwHsMqw&cbp=11,87.37,,0,7.05&z=12

If you check the map on the link below you'll see that at the time of posting, there were zero fatal or serious collisions recorded at these locations..

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Collision-Statistics/Ireland-Road-Collisions/

They were lying then and the fact that they no longer make the data available for us to crosscheck leaves me in no doubt that they continue to lie about it today..

As i said, it's about generating revenue. Nothing whatsoever to do with saving lives.

mcgratheoin

No

Swanner wrote:

I spent quite a few hours comparing the RSA collision data with known speed van locations.

Swanner wrote: »

Not possible as the RSA no longer make collision location data available to the public..

Firstly - 2 anecdotal observations does not a dataset make. you said "vast majority" - there are over 1000 listed sites with a weighting of 10 or over
Secondly - fatalities have occurred in the vicinity of one of your observations but you don't acknowledge that a Garda presence in the area might help reduce these incidents
Thirdly - if you see a Go Safe van outside one of the designated areas you should report it - afaik they are only allowed work in those zones that are predetermined and published.
Fourthly - your argument that AGS pay Go Safe €16m a year and recover €7m in fines as a revenue generator is patently ridiculous.

Finally - I can't believe that yet again a thread about the safety of cyclists on the road has turned into a thread about motorists whinging about the rules of the road being enforced. We have all the usual distractions - just a revenue generator, questioning whether speeding actually causes deaths, calling camera vans "cash vans", blatantly untrue statements like "you can only go 80 on the N4 but you can go 100 in the built up areas off it" and dismissing any reports that show the contrary as lies. It's the classic "skeptic" approach to data driven science, we see it in road safety, climate change, vaccines etc.. - nitpick at everything you can think of and then move on to the next fallacy without providing any robust evidence to support your claims.

I see that mere evidence isn't going to change anyone's mind here - I'm out.

The Bishop Basher

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Firstly - 2 anecdotal observations does not a dataset make. you said "vast majority" - there are over 1000 listed sites with a weighting of 10 or over

I can get you lots more examples if you like.

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Secondly - fatalities have occurred in the vicinity of one of your observations but you don't acknowledge that a Garda presence in the area might help reduce these incidents

I never said anything of the sort. Either way, it's totally irrelevant to the point being discussed..

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Thirdly - if you see a Go Safe van outside one of the designated areas you should report it - afaik they are only allowed work in those zones that are predetermined and published.

To whom ? The perpetrators ? The same people who who conducted over 1 million imaginary breath tests ? I don't think i'll waste my time.

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Finally - I can't believe.... ....your claims.

I'm out.

You asked for evidence. I give it to you and you walk off in a huff :rolleyes:

Anyway, you are correct on one point, we're miles off topic so i'll leave it there..

smacl

No

magicbastarder wrote: »

heh, those locations are in lat/long format so it'd be a bloody tiresome task to pinpoint them all on a map.

Chuck 'em all into a KML file and load them into Google earth. No biggie.

The Bishop Basher

No

smacl wrote: »

Chuck 'em all into a KML file and load them into Google earth. No biggie.

Those locations aren't the issue though.. You'll rarely speed checks at these spots..

It's the locations they don't list that are relevant here.

We all know them well..

Big wide road with an exceptionally low speed limit and a white van hiding behind a bush.

Catching some bloke doing 65 in a 60 zone on safe stretch of road where no-one has ever been killed or injured might be easy money but will do absolutely nothing to reduce the number of cyclists dying on our roads. On the contrary, all it does is redirect badly needed resources away from locations where proper enforcement could actually make a real difference and genuinely save lives.. I'm surprised people here don't see that..

Chuchote

No

Have we moved to the motoring forum?

HivemindXX

smacl wrote: »

Chuck 'em all into a KML file and load them into Google earth. No biggie.

Done. Well Google Maps instead of Google Earth which was pretty slow.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1Knyf_NesqvkR8ipNjtkBt3fnk7w&ll=53.33628651691383%2C-6.442197998046822&z=11

The data has a start and end point, but I just used the start point to generate the locations.

<edit>I see Swanner doesn't have a problem with these locations, but only some other sort of secret ones. That's good to know. People making this point should probably make an effort to differentiate the two since it does seem like you are simply against speed cameras full stop</edit>

smacl

No

Swanner wrote: »

Those locations aren't the issue though.. You'll rarely speed checks at these spots..

Not saying they were or weren't, simply highlighting an easy way to display a bunch of lat/long positions on a map. Thinking about it, GPX would work well too.

runawaybishop

Swanner wrote: »

They were lying then and the fact that they no longer make the data available for us to crosscheck leaves me in no doubt that they continue to lie about it today..

As i said, it's about generating revenue. Nothing whatsoever to do with saving lives.

The gosafe vans you mean? The ones that are signposted. Have lights at night and day glo strips. The ones with a 20 meter detection range that can only do one side of the road at a time? Those yokes? Pure sneaky they are.

Pinch Flat

No

Chuchote wrote: »

Now, this is just my observation as a random gobshíte, but it seems to me that in the last five years there has been a huge rise in numbers of cars, and also a huge rise in the number of very young drivers (so both more likely to be reckless and less likely to be experienced). Am I wrong in this?

I'm having a lot more run ins with N / L Drivers - last one last night at Island Bridge, him speeding down the bus lane, generally acting the d!ck and beeping at me to get past. I held my lane - it's narrow at the garage there heading out of the city. Eventually he passed right, then swung left in front of me to turn up a road leading off the quays.

Pretty disappointing for someone who's sat a driving test recently.

The Bishop Basher

No

smacl wrote: »

Not saying they were or weren't, simply highlighting an easy way to display a bunch of lat/long positions on a map. Thinking about it, GPX would work well too.

I got that.. wasn't suggesting otherwise..

HivemindXX wrote: »

Done. Well Google Maps instead of Google Earth which was pretty slow.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1Knyf_NesqvkR8ipNjtkBt3fnk7w&ll=53.33628651691383%2C-6.442197998046822&z=11

The data has a start and end point, but I just used the start point to generate the locations.

<edit>I see Swanner doesn't have a problem with these locations, but only some other sort of secret ones. That's good to know. People making this point should probably make an effort to differentiate the two since it does seem like you are simply against speed cameras full stop</edit>

Interesting to see that there's one of these literally at my gate. I've lived here 20 years now and no-one has been killed or injured there in that time.

But that aside, I have no problem at all with cameras. I actually think average speed cameras are a good idea and I'd support any measure that protects road users, especially vulnerable road users, once it's sensible and fair.

HivemindXX

Swanner wrote: »

Interesting to see that there's one of these literally at my gate. I've lived here 20 years now and no-one has been killed or injured there in that time.

The original table has details of how many deaths or injuries there have been. I'd be interested if you can prove it is wrong. I think it's more likely that you are not aware of every death or injury in your area.

greenspurs

A reply from Bobby Alyward TD.
A very indept reply in fairness.
First paragraph is Bobby Alyward asking Shane Ross :

"To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has examined international practice, specifically the Dutch model, whereby the vast majority of children, before they start secondary school are required to pass a cycling test and whereby motorists are also trained for interaction with cyclists as part of their driver training when applying and testing for a driving licence; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 21st March, 2017.　

Ref No: 13413/17　

Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport
Shane Ross
REPLY

In 2014 my Department engaged Cycling Ireland to develop a new national cycle training standard which would ensure a standardised level of cycle training around the country. The new standard, Cycle Right, launched in January 2017 will be rolled out this year to as many primary schools as funding allows. I am confident that this new cycle training, which is more in line with international best practice and includes an on-road element, will result, over time, in an increase in the number of children choosing to cycle to and from school. It is expected that 12,000 to 15,000 children will avail of the training in 2017. Cycling Ireland will administer and manage the Cycle Right scheme which is funded by my Department and the Road Safety Authority in addition to parental and local authority contributions.
Since 2011, learner drivers are required to take a 12-lesson programme of Essential Driver Training before taking the driving test. Among the topics which must be covered are potential risks associated with interacting with cyclists on the road."

greenspurs

Question 2 from Alyward to Ross

"To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if his attention has been drawn to the fact that inappropriately designed and constructed cycle lanes can result in fatal outcomes for users; his plans to rectify this issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter.


* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 11th October, 2016.

Ref No: 29373/16

Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport
Shane Ross
REPLY

While I have overall responsibility, as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, for policy and funding in relation to roads and traffic, the design and construction of cycling infrastructure in Ireland is carried out in accordance with the criteria set out in the National Cycle Manual as published by the National Transport Authority.
Noting the above position, I have referred the Deputy's question to the NTA for direct reply. Please advise my private office if you don't receive a reply within 10 working days."

greenspurs

No. 3

"To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if his attention has been drawn to the national cycling policy framework document 2009 and if he is following the recommendations set in the document; if he recognises the need to engage with the stakeholders as identified in the national cycling policy framework document, if not, the reason; and if he will make a statement on the matter.


* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 11th October, 2016.

Ref No: 29372/16

Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport
Shane Ross

REPLY

The National Cycle Policy Framework (NCPF) was launched in 2009 and sets out a vision for cycling in Ireland to 2020.
Wide consultation with stakeholders and members of the public was part of the process of developing the NCPF. As it currently stands the scope of the NCPF is broad and ambitious and while significant progress has been made on a numbers of actions, we will need a further concerted effort to try to deliver on the overall vision by 2020.
My Department intends undertaking a review of this policy document in the near future and in doing so will again consult with all the relevant stakeholders.

greenspurs

No. 4 :

"To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the urgent need to address cycle safety here; his plans to bring forward legislation relevant to cyclist safety; and if he will make a statement on the matter.


* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 11th October, 2016.

Ref No: 29371/1
Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport
Shane Ross
REPLY

​My current priority in road safety legislation is the Road Traffic Bill 2016 which is focussed on measures to improve safety for all road users including cyclists. The Bill provides for roadside testing for drugs and an offence of driving with the presence of specified drugs in the blood, a special speed limit of 20km/h, and measures to give effect to an agreement between Ireland and the UK on mutual recognition of driving disqualifications.

I have no plans at present to bring forward specific road traffic legislation regarding cycling safety. In my view, safety for cyclists is best addressed by way of educational and publicity campaigns, such as those undertaken by the Road Safety Authority (RSA). The RSA promote awareness of the Rules of the Road and safe practice on our roads for all road users including the awareness of cyclists and other vulnerable road users among motorists and drivers of heavy commercial vehicles, in conjunction with promoting safe cycling practice by promoting awareness among cyclists of the need for visibility on our roads.

The current Road Safety Strategy, running from 2013 to 2020, contains measures to promote the use of personal protection equipment and high visibility clothing, which is heavily funded by the RSA, and developing a standardised road safety cycling proficiency training programme for schools.
My Department is funding the development and roll-out of "Cycle Right", a new national cycling training standard which I expect will roll out nationally in 2017. Funding of approximately €37m has been allocated by the National Transport Authority for investment in cycling/walking projects, QBCs, safety integration and traffic management projects in 2016 covering the Greater Dublin Area and Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

mr spuckler

so it sounds like no MPDL then?

Annie get your Run

No

greenspurs wrote: »

The current Road Safety Strategy, running from 2013 to 2020, contains measures to promote the use of personal protection equipment and high visibility clothing,

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

greenspurs

mr spuckler wrote: »

so it sounds like no MPDL then?

It looks like it wasnt mentioned by anyone !

mr spuckler

greenspurs wrote: »

It looks like it wasnt mentioned by anyone !

Ross does essentially mention it but only to confirm he'll be doing nothing about it.

shane ross wrote:

I have no plans at present to bring forward specific road traffic legislation regarding cycling safety

Seaswimmer

No

What is MPDL??

greenspurs

Seaswimmer wrote: »

What is MPDL??

Minimum Passing Distance (Law)

dermabrasion

No

Ross is in my constituency. I can't wait until he rings my bell. I will ring his.

clickerquicklic

Every morning I am getting close passes at the same points on the road, these are mostly where there is an off-road inappropriate bike lane. I have started to take the full bus lane and blatantly cycle down the centre of the lane to the annoyance of taxi and bus drivers, I get a fair amount of abuse and beeping but I feel safer.
I'm wondering is this what its going to take to get a change in attitude on the road? If everyone just takes the centre of the lane they are cycling in until motorists realise that we are entitled to be there and that the position we normally take is been courteous to other road users.

schemingbohemia

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Every morning I am getting close passes at the same points on the road, these are mostly where there is an off-road inappropriate bike lane. I have started to take the full bus lane and blatantly cycle down the centre of the lane to the annoyance of taxi and bus drivers, I get a fair amount of abuse and beeping but I feel safer.
I'm wondering is this what its going to take to get a change in attitude on the road? If everyone just takes the centre of the lane they are cycling in until motorists realise that we are entitled to be there and that the position we normally take is been courteous to other road users.

Which Bike Lane and what's inappropriate about it?

clickerquicklic

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Which Bike Lane and what's inappropriate about it?

The various bike lanes from Swords into town, around the airport the bike lane would have me stopping to cross junctions every few hundred metres , its turning off the main route i'm going. Then down by santry if i was to follow the bike lane it is basically down a narrow footpath where i would be a danger to pedestrians, which goes downhill towards a generally crowded bus stop. This is just a couple of examples , they are not really fit for purpose most of the bike lanes.

mcgratheoin

No

greenspurs wrote: »

A reply from Bobby Alyward TD.
A very indept reply in fairness.
First paragraph is Bobby Alyward asking Shane Ross :

"To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has examined international practice, specifically the Dutch model, whereby the vast majority of children, before they start secondary school are required to pass a cycling test and whereby motorists are also trained for interaction with cyclists as part of their driver training when applying and testing for a driving licence; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 21st March, 2017.　

Ref No: 13413/17　

Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport
Shane Ross
REPLY

In 2014 my Department engaged Cycling Ireland to develop a new national cycle training standard which would ensure a standardised level of cycle training around the country. The new standard, Cycle Right, launched in January 2017 will be rolled out this year to as many primary schools as funding allows. I am confident that this new cycle training, which is more in line with international best practice and includes an on-road element, will result, over time, in an increase in the number of children choosing to cycle to and from school. It is expected that 12,000 to 15,000 children will avail of the training in 2017. Cycling Ireland will administer and manage the Cycle Right scheme which is funded by my Department and the Road Safety Authority in addition to parental and local authority contributions.
Since 2011, learner drivers are required to take a 12-lesson programme of Essential Driver Training before taking the driving test. Among the topics which must be covered are potential risks associated with interacting with cyclists on the road."

Translation:

I'll ignore the part of the question about whether we actually looked at international best practice and focus on how we've taken 3 years to design a programme to teach kids how to cycle safely on the roads. Drivers already get enough instruction on how to interact with cyclists - so the problem can't be on their side.