Is it worth it anymore..... ?

AndrewJRenko

No

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well yea, you'd need MPD and strict liability in cycle - motorist collisions, and enforcement for starters...

MPD and strict liability would be great - but enforcement is the real issue. Half-decent enforcement of existing laws on speeding, red lights, parking in cycle lanes would transform the environment for cyclists.

Chuchote

No

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

MPD and strict liability would be great - but enforcement is the real issue. Half-decent enforcement of existing laws on speeding, red lights, parking in cycle lanes would transform the environment for cyclists.

And especially holding and using phones in cars, trucks, etc.

Roadhawk

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

MPD and strict liability would be great - but enforcement is the real issue. Half-decent enforcement of existing laws on speeding, red lights, parking in cycle lanes would transform the environment for cyclists.

Enforcement across the board for all road users is the key to having happy journeys

AndrewJRenko

No

Roadhawk wrote: »

Enforcement across the board for all road users is the key to having happy journeys

I was focusing on safety rather than happiness. I'm not sure that happiness is a good objective, given the large numbers of small minded people who base their own happiness on causing obstructions, delays and bureaucracy for others, regardless of the safety issues involved.

I love Sean nos

Atari Jaguar

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I was focusing on safety rather than happiness. I'm not sure that happiness is a good objective, given the large numbers of small minded people who base their own happiness on causing obstructions, delays and bureaucracy for others, regardless of the safety issues involved.

You're wasting your time and focusing on the wrong word in that statement.

CramCycle

Roadhawk wrote: »

Enforcement across the board for all road users is the key to having happy journeys

Have to 100% agree. Not sure it will make journeys happier but will certainly make roads safer in short order.

jimmycrackcorm

Another death today. I haven't looked at the stats but I don't recall another year looking as gruesome. It almost feels as though a cyclist will die every couple of weeks.

Chuchote

No

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Another death today. I haven't looked at the stats but I don't recall another year looking as gruesome. It almost feels as though a cyclist will die every couple of weeks.

It's become so normative that it no longer leads the news. The first few, there were big demonstrations by cyclists looking for proper infrastructure; the last few, not a dicky-bird.

Although two of the deaths of people on bikes were genuine accidents, I think that all, even these two, were caused by the lack of a Dutch-style separate and protected network for bicycles; of these two, one person had dismounted to cross a notoriously dangerous junction on foot, and one was cycling fast on the hard shoulder of a major road.

The others (if what I've heard and read is correct) included people hit by cars turning at junctions, hit from behind by cars, crushed against railings by a turning truck, colliding with tractors, etc - 99% of the deaths and injuries wouldn't happen if the government of Ireland cared enough to make a safe network.

It doesn't even have to be costly; Janette Sadik-Khan's first separated cycleways in New York were temporary, separated off by planters with flowers in them - when they proved popular both with people on bikes and people living and working on the streets, they were kept and improved.

It may cause some inconvenience to people who like to park their cars on public streets. If I were given the choice between parking a little further away and having a safe place for adults and children to ride bikes, or continuing to take up street space a couple of metres from my home, I know which I'd choose. I think if people actually saw the choice in these terms, they'd choose the same way.

cython

No

Chuchote wrote: »

It's become so normative that it no longer leads the news. The first few, there were big demonstrations by cyclists looking for proper infrastructure; the last few, not a dicky-bird.

Although two of the deaths of people on bikes were genuine accidents, I think that all, even these two, were caused by the lack of a Dutch-style separate and protected network for bicycles; of these two, one person had dismounted to cross a notoriously dangerous junction on foot, and one was cycling fast on the hard shoulder of a major road.

The others (if what I've heard and read is correct) included people hit by cars turning at junctions, hit from behind by cars, crushed against railings by a turning truck, colliding with tractors, etc - 99% of the deaths and injuries wouldn't happen if the government of Ireland cared enough to make a safe network.

It doesn't even have to be costly; Janette Sadik-Khan's first separated cycleways in New York were temporary, separated off by planters with flowers in them - when they proved popular both with people on bikes and people living and working on the streets, they were kept and improved.

It may cause some inconvenience to people who like to park their cars on public streets. If I were given the choice between parking a little further away and having a safe place for adults and children to ride bikes, or continuing to take up street space a couple of metres from my home, I know which I'd choose. I think if people actually saw the choice in these terms, they'd choose the same way.

The bolded is a (no pun intended) bold claim, to be honest. While I've not been to the Netherlands, I would be surprised if they have a network of segregated facilities somewhere as remote as the Gap of Dunloe, nor would I consider it reasonable to expect it. While it could be argued that a segregated facility there would have prevented it, the simple fact is that a lot of the beauty spots where leisure cyclists go are in places where segregated facilities are not feasible, and in fact would detract from the area massively. Not to mention that I personally would not like to descend the Wicklow Gap (for example) on narrower carriageway in the form of a cycle path :eek:

I fully agree that in urban areas Ireland lags significantly, and indeed on inter-urban routes, but there is a balance to be struck, and we need to be reasonable in our expectations. As a result, I would not not agree that a collision in the wilds of Kerry was caused by an absence of segregated cycling facilities, simply because while their presence might have prevented it, it's not a reasonable expectation that they would exist.

Pinch Flat

No

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Another death today. I haven't looked at the stats but I don't recall another year looking as gruesome. It almost feels as though a cyclist will die every couple of weeks.

9 killed and we're only 5 months into the year. Personally, I think it's time for some ramping up of action to bring focus to this. The "die-ins" of the UK might be an option, but at the moment my own feeling is that the roads are out of control.

I had it on Sunday coming back on a spin from rathoath to Dublin 15 - ridiculous overtaking, over a solid white line, into oncoming traffic, around blind bends and over hills.

A driver cut across me last week in Dublin City centre - all to get to a red light - his attitude was it was up to me to look after my own safety.

Look at the radio segments and social media discussions on cyclists - the vitriol is real and this is being translated into behaviour on the roads, motorists are seeing cyclists as a serious impediment to their progress and the sense of ownership of the roads.

It's really sad that it's got to this.

Inquitus

No

If we had Strict Liability like they do on the continent, that could go a long way towards changing driver attitudes and making cycling safer for all, would be pretty easy to introduce as well.

monkeysnapper

I live in Kerry and I can tell you ....the roads are jammers with cyclists training for ring of Kerry . and I'm not exaggerating !!!

I cycle as well and I generally cycle the mountain roads which are much quieter , loads of hills , beautiful scenery . but I would also agree that its dangerous out there .

The main roads around here are shocking condition . pot holes , cycle lanes going through junctions .

Chuchote

No

Inquitus wrote: »

If we had Strict Liability like they do on the continent, that could go a long way towards changing driver attitudes and making cycling safer for all, would be pretty easy to introduce as well.

Would be easy to introduce if we had a cycling Dail. Considering the Dail we have, I'm not sure.

Dr Crayfish

Are the figures for deaths really bad though? Think of the amount of people cycling. People die all the time doing pretty much everything. Falling off ladders, on constructions sites, doing DIY, chocking on fish bones...
I've commuted in Dublin for maybe 15 years and 4 years in London and haven't even had any kind of scrape or ever come off my bike in traffic.
Some ar*sehole counsellor was on Newstalk today moaning about cyclists on the Clontarf Promenade. His agenda against cyclists was ridiculous, I can't understand why we infuriate people so much. Pedestrians, motorists, and cyclists all break the rules as much as each other.
Personally I think there should be different rules for different vehicles. In our case, cyclists should be able to turn left at junctions, it doesn't harm anyone, or break pedestrian crossings etc when it's safe to do so. I do it anyway and I can't see myself ever changing that way.
The congested roads in Dublin are pretty much a free for all at the moment, and the roads do not accommodate cyclists in the least bit, so I just do my own thing as long as it doesn't cause disruption.

Dr Crayfish

This is interesting

http://nltimes.nl/2016/04/12/netherlands-cyclists-likely-eu-hurt-traffic

Inquitus

No

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

This is interesting

http://nltimes.nl/2016/04/12/netherlands-cyclists-likely-eu-hurt-traffic

So the Netherlands is the safest nation per Km cycled, not much surprising there except for the way the stats were twisted in the official report.

Chuchote

No

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Are the figures for deaths really bad though? Think of the amount of people cycling. People die all the time doing pretty much everything. Falling off ladders, on constructions sites, doing DIY, chocking on fish bones...
I've commuted in Dublin for maybe 15 years and 4 years in London and haven't even had any kind of scrape or ever come off my bike in traffic.
Some ar*sehole counsellor was on Newstalk today moaning about cyclists on the Clontarf Promenade. His agenda against cyclists was ridiculous, I can't understand why we infuriate people so much. Pedestrians, motorists, and cyclists all break the rules as much as each other.
Personally I think there should be different rules for different vehicles. In our case, cyclists should be able to turn left at junctions, it doesn't harm anyone, or break pedestrian crossings etc when it's safe to do so. I do it anyway and I can't see myself ever changing that way.
The congested roads in Dublin are pretty much a free for all at the moment, and the roads do not accommodate cyclists in the least bit, so I just do my own thing as long as it doesn't cause disruption.

Agree completely.

I wasn't clear above on what I meant about having a network - no, I don't think there should be cycleways across the Conor Pass, etc. It's more that in countries where a network of protected and separated cycleways is the norm in cities and towns, and where therefore most people cycle, drivers are by habit more considerate and careful with people on bikes.

Many drivers in Ireland treat people on bikes as if they don't realise they'll have a world of grief and guilt to live with if they tip someone lightly and send them off the bike and into a fatal crash.