Is it worth it anymore..... ?

07Lapierre

No

Mooooo wrote: »

The solution really is more cycle lanes ideally totally separate from roads from town/city centres to the outskirts etc. Obviously the cost and indeed space required makes it a big job to try and push. Until that is done enforcement and education is what needs to be pushed. Observation in motorised transport and cyclists/ pedestrians etc. Dunno if it's been measured but the amount of people walking and cycling with headphones on at busy periods and indeed pedestrians with heads down on smartphones must have increased the amount of accidents

I find listening to music is calming/relaxing.

http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/hearing.htm

greenspurs

mr spuckler wrote: »

agreed, given that our taoiseach is an avid cyclist yet i recall few if any public utterances by him on the subject.

Silence is deafening ..... :rolleyes:
No one surprised at that !

Why would one attempt to p*ss off the motor industry, shur dont they contribute to the economy, shur cyclists dont even pay 'road tax'

Danbo!

No

Mooooo wrote: »

The solution really is more cycle lanes ideally totally separate from roads from town/city centres to the outskirts etc. Obviously the cost and indeed space required makes it a big job to try and push. Until that is done enforcement and education is what needs to be pushed. Observation in motorised transport and cyclists/ pedestrians etc. Dunno if it's been measured but the amount of people walking and cycling with headphones on at busy periods and indeed pedestrians with heads down on smartphones must have increased the amount of accidents

Are there decent examples of separated cycle lanes anywhere, particularly at junctions? I have cycle lanes from outside my house all the way into the city centre, 11km. They're a mix of on road and off road. The off road ones are separated by a kerb or grass verge. The on road ones are on wide roads and narrow roads. But the problem with the off road ones are that I travel at a faster average speed than a motorist at rush hour, but I have to yield at every junction with a side road. While they may be safer, off road tracks are generally in terrible condition and would double my commute time. 99% of motorists that pass me when I'm ignoring an off-road track give me space or wait until they can give me enough space.

Any decent examples I've seen dump the cyclist out onto an on-road track safely at junctions but, at least anecdotally, junctions seem to be where more incidents occur.

Anyway, from my own experience, bar a few poor examples of infastucture, it's mostly poor driving/walking/cycling that cause me issues on my commutes.

greenspurs

Mooooo wrote: »

The solution really is more cycle lanes ideally totally separate from roads from town/city centres to the outskirts etc. Obviously the cost and indeed space required makes it a big job to try and push. Until that is done enforcement and education is what needs to be pushed. Observation in motorised transport and cyclists/ pedestrians etc. Dunno if it's been measured but the amount of people walking and cycling with headphones on at busy periods and indeed pedestrians with heads down on smartphones must have increased the amount of accidents

I would agree , but i dont think its feasible.

Take Waterford city for example. If anyone has visited there you can see the (balls of a) job the planners/designers/architects have done there.
What was once a beautiful wide throughfare is now a hotch potch of (not needed) roundabouts and (not needed) central median with landscaping , trees etc.
The cycle lane on the way from the Bridge towards Dunmore (East) has a lane 1ft wide approx, and it disappears at a roundabout, and has numerous manhole covers, and 4/5 entrances/exits to carparks along the quay.
In the opposite direction (West), the lane also disappears, and there are car spaces where the cars have to reverse out of the space onto the cycle lane so they can get back into traffic on the Quay.

That is a newly (re) constructed arrangement in Waterford.
There is absolutely no chance/hope of there being any kind of meaningful/workable types of cycle paths/lanes being put into operation in any town or city.
There is little/no thought put into planning for cars/parking , so i doubt bikes are on their agenda!!

tomasrojo

No

I just cycle to get around, but I do a lot of it. I still, as I have for years, find cycling around Dublin fine and actually pretty enjoyable nearly every day.

I do however spend a fair bit of time looking at a map when I have to go somewhere new so I can work out a quiet route (quiet, as in without narrow lanes of fast-moving, impatient drivers and lane-switching), and I refine frequent routes until they are as low-stress as I can get them.

This probably is where some Dutch principles applied to street design could pay dividends. I should be able to assume just about any main street is low-stress and navigable. I shouldn't have to go all Amerigo Vespucci on it.

tomasrojo

No

I think some people were asking what the trend of the last few years has been. IrishCycle.com did a graph:

mr spuckler

tomasrojo wrote: »

I just cycle to get around, but I do a lot of it. I still, as I have for years, find cycling around Dublin fine and actually pretty enjoyable nearly every day.

I do however spend a fair bit of time looking at a map when I have to go somewhere new so I can work out a quiet route (quiet, as in without narrow lanes of fast-moving, impatient drivers and lane-switching), and I refine frequent routes until they are as low-stress as I can get them.

i agree - i have no perfect commuting route but have extended it out by about 3-4km in order to make it as pleasant as possible. i don't find the more direct route frightening, just unpleasant due to poor road surface and congestion.

i also enjoy it almost every day - usually don't just when i'm particularly tired!

Beasty

Is it worth it any more than it was years ago when fewer people were cycling and more of them were being killed?

As already mentioned there is a downward trend. However when absolute figures are so low it's difficult to draw any conclusions from data taken from a short period. The official Garda stats were putting the total at 5 for the year before the latest tragic incident. That's pretty much in line with recent years where my rule of thumb has been a long the lines of one per month over a year.

I think perceptions are being influenced by poor reporting of "stats" typically when there is a year on year increase while overlooking it when the figure reduces

In addition we do typically see threads started here on the back if every such incident nowadays. I certainly don't want to come across as downplaying any of these tragic incidents and my sympathies go out to all affected. However when I joined up to Boards we only seemed to get such threads typically when it hit the national press (and maybe that happens more often nowadays also)

keoclassic

For me it will always be worth it...................the bike has always got me out of more trouble than it has ever gotten me into.

Moflojo

No

Beasty wrote: »

The official Garda stats were putting the total at 5 for the year before the latest tragic incident. That's pretty much in line with recent years where my rule of thumb has been a long the lines of one per month over a year.

I just want to point out that the official Garda stats appear to be incorrect. By my count there have been 7 cycling fatalities this year, including yesterday's in Kerry. The Gardaí were showing 5 as the figure before yesterday's fatality in Kerry. I don't know which fatality the Gardaí are omitting but they're not great with numbers at the best of times. The fatalities, per location, this year have been:

1. Near Prosperous, Kildare. (Female, struck by car while on training spin with club.)
2. Conyngham Road, Dublin. (Male, struck by car near Phoenix Park entrance.)
3. Patrick Street, Dublin. (Male, struck by taxi around 12.30am.)
4. Near Bunratty, Clare. (Male, struck by camper van while on training spin from Limerick.)
5. Templeogue, Dublin. (Female, struck by truck at roundabout while cycling home from work.)
6. West Cork. (Cyclist in hospital for a week after collision before succumbing to injuries.)
7. Killarney, Kerry. (Female, struck by tractor while on training spin with group.)

I might have the order wrong but those are the seven fatal collisions that I have noted this year.

BoatMad

I recently found myself in Dublin in the car, on a very wet and dark evening, at rush hour , centre city, something I simply dont normally do these days , since I moved " down the bog"

it was terrifying, there were cyclists everywhere, breaking lights , whizzing in and out of traffic, no lights , no arm signals, They just appeared alongside the car without warning

I actually had to stop and sat in a cafe for two hours to then resume my journey outside rush hour


Never again

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

07Lapierre wrote: »

1: be more assertive! Don't cycle in the gutter. Take the lane at pinch points.

This point is what seems to piss most motorists off, and it's incredibly difficult at times. Some day I feel that this will be the reason I get hit by a car, and it won't be an accident.

Today I was assertive, took the lane but the old man behind me got so god damn angry. He really wanted to get ahead of me and to the red light first. There was nothing else on his mind, he couldn't see anything else apart from me, "in his way".

PaulieC

No

BoatMad wrote: »

They just appeared alongside the car without warning

Like they just cycled up behind you without pre-announcing ? Cheeky buggers :rolleyes:

greenspurs

Beasty wrote: »

Is it worth it any more than it was years ago when fewer people were cycling and more of them were being killed?

As already mentioned there is a downward trend. However when absolute figures are so low it's difficult to draw any conclusions from data taken from a short period. The official Garda stats were putting the total at 5 for the year before the latest tragic incident. That's pretty much in line with recent years where my rule of thumb has been a long the lines of one per month over a year.

I think perceptions are being influenced by poor reporting of "stats" typically when there is a year on year increase while overlooking it when the figure reduces

In addition we do typically see threads started here on the back if every such incident nowadays. I certainly don't want to come across as downplaying any of these tragic incidents and my sympathies go out to all affected. However when I joined up to Boards we only seemed to get such threads typically when it hit the national press (and maybe that happens more often nowadays also)

A bit of a glib response to be honest.
My op was of three incidents in 30 mins, my personal feelings on whats happening.
And probably 2/3 similar incidents on every other spin im on....
So it has nothing to do with 'perceptions' , when cyclists are relaying whats happening on the roads. So, one death a month is acceptable?

Parchment

Leroy Fast Scapegoat wrote: »

This point is what seems to piss most motorists off, and it's incredibly difficult at times. Some day I feel that this will be the reason I get hit by a car, and it won't be an accident.

Today I was assertive, took the lane but the old man behind me got so god damn angry. He really wanted to get ahead of me and to the red light first. There was nothing else on his mind, he couldn't see anything else apart from me, "in his way".

i agree - you can really rile people up by taking the lane etc. For me if things are getting hairy and im getting pinched into the side of the road i have no problem lifting my bike up onto a footpath and walking my bike to a safer area to re-enter the road.

I also have a tricky turn into my road where i live - right hand turn on a narrow road. the turn right is just after a cross roads with lights - so once the lights go green there is a good line of cars behind me waiting to go. I have tried to take the lane when i need to turn but 2 days out of 5 its made impossible by a line of cars overtaking me. Rather than try to battle my way out to the middle of the lane - i pull off onto the footpath on the left, get off and wait until i can cross the road with my bike safely and then cycle on.

BoatMad

PaulieC wrote: »

Like they just cycled up behind you without pre-announcing ? Cheeky buggers :rolleyes:

no just that from the perspective inside a car on a dark night , you simply cant see many cyclists , They are far far less well lit up then other road users and many have little or no lighting at all.

cars on the other hand these days are like beacons in the night

greenspurs

Response number 1 out of 10 .....


"Dear Mr *****

On behalf of the Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport, Shane Ross, T.D., I wish to thank you for your email regarding cyclists safety, your concerns have been noted.

Yours sincerely,


Chris Smith
Private Secretary to Minister Shane Ross"

A quick stock reply before he rushed out the door at 5 oclock ...

Danbo!

No

Leroy Fast Scapegoat wrote: »

This point is what seems to piss most motorists off, and it's incredibly difficult at times. Some day I feel that this will be the reason I get hit by a car, and it won't be an accident.

Today I was assertive, took the lane but the old man behind me got so god damn angry. He really wanted to get ahead of me and to the red light first. There was nothing else on his mind, he couldn't see anything else apart from me, "in his way".

Im a big advocate for taking the lane but it's not the ultimate answer as it does tend to piss a lot of motorists off, and like flashing someone driving with foglights on, doesnt do much in terms of helping them understand. It's a pain in the hole tbh.

On two occasions recently I've been undertaken while taking the lane. Once there was a left turning lane and plenty of room for them to do so, but still it was close and no indication at all.

The other one was far scarier, at that weird left-right-but-actually-straight junction from merrion square south onto Holles Street at the hospital. As I turned the corner the car behind me went left, so I assume he's turning left, I'm heading for the kerb-side of Holles street and all of a sudden he's on my left coming with me. Chatted to him at traffic lights and he had the whole "You cyclists are all the same" attitude, telling me I should have been to his left not in front of him. The most worrying part was, there was no logic to his train of thought. He didnt see the danger in undertaking. He didnt think where I would be throughout the manoeuvre. He was just driving as normal, cyclists nearby be damned. It didnt worry him that he might have hit me, sure it would have been my fault.

BoatMad

The other one was far scarier, at that weird left-right-but-actually-straight junction from merrion square south onto Holles Street at the hospital. As I turned the corner the car behind me went left, so I assume he's turning left, I'm heading for the kerb-side of Holles street and all of a sudden he's on my left coming with me. Chatted to him at traffic lights and he had the whole "You cyclists are all the same" attitude, telling me I should have been to his left not in front of him. The most worrying part was, there was no logic to his train of thought. He didnt see the danger in undertaking. He didnt think where I would be throughout the manoeuvre. He was just driving as normal, cyclists nearby be damned. It didnt worry him that he might have hit me, sure it would have been my fault.

in fairness that junction screws up motorists as well .

ford2600

iwillhtfu wrote: »

As ford2600 has said and I agree generally I stick to the the back roads and head out early enough usually to catch the sunrise. Although in saying that I've met a few lunatics booting down to mass to confess all their sins early on a Sunday morning. Cyclist or not you won't stand int he way of a meeting with Jebus. :eek:

IME one of the worst motorist to meet is one with God on his side.

Coolea West Cork on two separate occasions I meet a concentrated collection of cnuts

Torr Head one lovely spring morning ditto. (Great location for Church though )

Four Mile Water in Waterford same bull****.

If Jesus, being absolved of sin, hearing 5000 yr old ramblings are that important to you set the fcuking clock a little earlier

pm1977x

07Lapierre wrote: »

Just wondering how many people who are going to stop cycling are also going to Stop going on Holiday (plane crash)?

Look, cycling is healthy, efficient and an economical form of transport.

I accept it's not for everyone and has risks, but there are things you can do to make your cycle a little safer:

1: be more assertive! Don't cycle in the gutter. Take the lane at pinch points.
2: make eye contact with motorists when your manovering (e g turning right)
3: be patient on your commute. (Don't take risks)
4: obey the rules of the road..stop at traffic lights etc.
5: if you can, choose a route that involves less right hand turns, roundabouts, junctions etc.

Finally, do you really want to go back to rush hour traffic and/or public transport?

Confession - I don't cycle at all as I'd be too scared having commuted for years on the quays in Dublin, it wouldn't be for me - so apologies if I'm not supposed to post in here but I like reading cycle threads as it helps give me a different perspective as a motorist.

I think the 'take the lane' approach is great as it makes a decision for me, I'm no longer looking to overtake or wondering if I have space to do it safely or when is the next gap in on-coming traffic. Years ago I completely misunderstood what this approach was about, I thought it was cyclists being arrogant but now I get it that it's about safety for them and indeed everyone so I think more education (of motorists) is needed.

On point 2 of eye-contact I'd much rather there was clear arm signalling in addition to eye contatct - I often encounter cyclists who look over their shoulder and then shoot across the lane as if they've just indicated their intention, so now I always hang back as soon as anyone looks over their shoulder - but it is very ambiguous because then you meet a cyclist who is just checking and isn't planning to move across for some time if at all...just an observation not looking to blame cyclists, I imagine it's not easy keeping control of a bike one-handed while avoiding cars/pot holes etc...

To get back on topic - it was never worth it due to bus drivers/maniac motorists on the quays.

BoatMad

pm1977x wrote: »

Confession - I don't cycle at all as I'd be too scared having commuted for years on the quays in Dublin, it wouldn't be for me - so apologies if I'm not supposed to post in here but I like reading cycle threads as it helps give me a different perspective as a motorist.

I think the 'take the lane' approach is great as it makes a decision for me, I'm no longer looking to overtake or wondering if I have space to do it safely or when is the next gap in on-coming traffic. Years ago I completely misunderstood what this approach was about, I thought it was cyclists being arrogant but now I get it that it's about safety for them and indeed everyone so I think more education (of motorists) is needed.

On point 2 of eye-contact I'd much rather there was clear arm signalling in addition to eye contatct - I often encounter cyclists who look over their shoulder and then shoot across the lane as if they've just indicated their intention, so now I always hang back as soon as anyone looks over their shoulder - but it is very ambiguous because then you meet a cyclist who is just checking and isn't planning to move across for some time if at all...just an observation not looking to blame cyclists, I imagine it's not easy keeping control of a bike one-handed while avoiding cars/pot holes etc...

To get back on topic - it was never worth it due to bus drivers/maniac motorists on the quays.

I agree and it goes back to the kernel of my post

cyclists need to be brought into the conventional rules of the road, and equally be " allowed "/encouraged to acquire sufficient road space to operate safely , where relative speeds differ considerably , they should be segregated from other road users

but that means , they must be as visible as cars, operate specific indicators to indicate direction , stoping etc etc etc , be subject to the same penalties as cars etc etc ( red lights , weaving etc )

in essence they need to become full road users

07Lapierre

No

pm1977x wrote: »

Confession - I don't cycle at all as I'd be too scared having commuted for years on the quays in Dublin, it wouldn't be for me - so apologies if I'm not supposed to post in here but I like reading cycle threads as it helps give me a different perspective as a motorist.

I think the 'take the lane' approach is great as it makes a decision for me, I'm no longer looking to overtake or wondering if I have space to do it safely or when is the next gap in on-coming traffic. Years ago I completely misunderstood what this approach was about, I thought it was cyclists being arrogant but now I get it that it's about safety for them and indeed everyone so I think more education (of motorists) is needed.

On point 2 of eye-contact I'd much rather there was clear arm signalling in addition to eye contatct - I often encounter cyclists who look over their shoulder and then shoot across the lane as if they've just indicated their intention, so now I always hang back as soon as anyone looks over their shoulder - but it is very ambiguous because then you meet a cyclist who is just checking and isn't planning to move across for some time if at all...just an observation not looking to blame cyclists, I imagine it's not easy keeping control of a bike one-handed while avoiding cars/pot holes etc...

To get back on topic - it was never worth it due to bus drivers/maniac motorists on the quays.

Thanks for that and your POV is as valid as anyone else.
I feel hand signals are covered under point no: 4 (rules of the road)
I mention eye contact as I see a lot of cyclist signal they are turning right, but they fail to look over their shoulder to confirm if the motorists have seen them and are allowing them to turn.

Here's a video which shows what can happen when you fail to "take the lane" at a pinch point:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/video-intimidating-truck-merges-like-irish-club-rider-simply-isnt-there/

magicbastarder

BoatMad wrote: »

but that means , they must be as visible as cars, operate specific indicators to indicate direction , stoping etc etc etc , be subject to the same penalties as cars etc etc ( red lights , weaving etc )

in essence they need to become full road users

you're going to need to clarify several points there. what will make them as visible as cars?
what do you mean by 'specific indicators'?
do you mean that a cyclist violating a particular law is as serious as a car doing it?
and why do i feel like 'a full road user' when i'm out on my bike when the implication is that i shouldn't?

Keller Bear

Yesterday on my commute home, a driving instructor who was driving his car overtook me and it was a little too close for comfort and then cut across me into the lane on my left almost taking my wheel.

Here is the company tagline:

Our primary mission is to help our students become safe drivers by learning the highest possible driving standards through competent training.

I didn’t feel safe. It is a real pity if this is the quality of a certified driving instructor.

But despite this cycling is still worth it.

07Lapierre

No

Leroy Fast Scapegoat wrote: »

This point is what seems to piss most motorists off, and it's incredibly difficult at times. Some day I feel that this will be the reason I get hit by a car, and it won't be an accident.

Today I was assertive, took the lane but the old man behind me got so god damn angry. He really wanted to get ahead of me and to the red light first. There was nothing else on his mind, he couldn't see anything else apart from me, "in his way".

I agree! It does piss people off, but tough! You have every right to do it.
Every situation is different but I try to take the lane and complete my turn as quickly as possible. I find most motorists will ease off the accelerator and allow a cyclist to turn if they see the cyclist is making a reasonable effort to do so as quickly as possible.

BoatMad

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're going to need to clarify several points there. what will make them as visible as cars?
what do you mean by 'specific indicators'?
do you mean that a cyclist violating a particular law is as serious as a car doing it?
and why do i feel like 'a full road user' when i'm out on my bike when the implication is that i shouldn't?

Today, an urban cyclist is likely to be progressing in traffic at the same or even greater speed then the surrounding powered vehicles

I that way , I see no difference between cyclists and say small motorcyclists.

Hence we need visibility lighting , turn indication , stop indication and a commonly of rules , making no difference between any of these road users

IN response, we take cyclists out of the " gutter" as has been mentioned and ensure they have full road space as is required to allow them to operate successfully and safety

that means that motorists dont find cyclists squeezed between their left door and the footpath , they see them dead centre in the lane in front or behind and the car travels behind them until it is safe to overtake in the normal rules of the road.

Junctions and so forth are handled in the same way. cyclists are front and centre as required

stevek93

No

Had a cyclist today whizzes past near the speed of light while I was avoiding a parked lorry in the cycle path. Total lack of consideration he gave me such a fright I lost my concentration.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

07Lapierre wrote: »

I agree! It does piss people off, but tough! You have every right to do it.
Every situation is different but I try to take the lane and complete my turn as quickly as possible. I find most motorists will ease off the accelerator and allow a cyclist to turn if they see the cyclist is making a reasonable effort to do so as quickly as possible.

I posted a video a while back where two cars passed me quite close at high speed after the second car passed I took the lane (nothing behind me anymore) and somebody posted on here that I was just another angry cyclist. He/she thought I was trying to piss off motorists by cycling close to center of the lane. On the video itself people are giving me crap about not using the "perfect" cycle lane which only accommodates cyclists turning left, it's also filled with glass and has barriers across it at points.

Here is where I am talking about. The last 500 meters of my journey to work and it was just awful. So many incidents on that part of the road. Cars would overtake at speed, jam on the breaks just in front of me and turn left down east wall road. If they slowed down and changed lane behind me, they would lose a precious second or two.

07Lapierre

No

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree and it goes back to the kernel of my post

cyclists need to be brought into the conventional rules of the road, and equally be " allowed "/encouraged to acquire sufficient road space to operate safely , where relative speeds differ considerably , they should be segregated from other road users

but that means , they must be as visible as cars, operate specific indicators to indicate direction , stoping etc etc etc , be subject to the same penalties as cars etc etc ( red lights , weaving etc )

in essence they need to become full road users

Cyclists are full road users. Cyclists are subject to penalties for all rules of the road, just like motorists. But just like a lot of motoring offences, they are just not enforced enough.

As for "as visible as cars"? My car is black! My bike is bright red!