Electric Ireland solar panels & EV charging?

Seriously, at 8c/Kwh night rate any renewable energy will be uneconomical in Ireland.

Dumping the energy is a waste.

antoinolachtnai

You mean that 8c/kWh is too low-priced to compete with?

reboot

The battery is at least 22kwhr, it's all nonsense?

BoatMad

reboot wrote: »

Just to get back to EV solar charging, sorry if I've already posted this, but I can't find it. I've read that my EV will only start to charge, above 10 amps, that's a lot to expect from solar, and expensive?

on a leaf, the lowest charge current is 6A , i.e. about 1300 watts, not at all impossible from a solar PV array

cnocbui

In winter? And how long would it take to charge a Leaf in winter from a solar panel?

BoatMad

cnocbui wrote: »

In winter? And how long would it take to charge a Leaf in winter from a solar panel?

what size array ?

gizmo555

BoatMad wrote: »

on a leaf, the lowest charge current is 6A , i.e. about 1300 watts, not at all impossible from a solar PV array

Electric Ireland in its FAQs on its solar panel offering is estimating an average annual output about 1,500 kWh. This would seem to suggest that most of the time output would be well below 6A.

unkel

Even if you use the full 1,500kWh and stick it into your EV (all of it!), it will have saved you about €100 per year at 7c night rate

In practice you might only use half during the day and use it for your house. In that case you will also save about €100 per year at day rates

Even if you could get this installation done for €2.5k instead of the €4.5k they are looking for, payback would be at least 25 years, probably a lot more taking into account system maintenance and less than ideal use of the units produced...

And don't even think of spending money to divert excess to immersion, as that will save you just about nothing taking into account the extra cost of hardware and installation

We need FIT, Minister, wake up!!!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

We need FIT, Minister, wake up!!!

He says that FiT is not within his remit.... from the horses mouth...

Regarding the feed-in-tariff scheme you mentioned, Electric Ireland had been offering a micro-generation feed-in-tariff since February 2009. On 31 December 2014, the scheme closed to new customers but the scheme does remain open to existing customers until December 2016. No other electricity supplier had chosen to provide such a tariff, either to domestic or commercial customers though they have been invited to do so by the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER). Responsibility for the regulation of the electricity market is a matter for the CER which is an independent statutory body and would be outside my authority as Minister.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

In winter? And how long would it take to charge a Leaf in winter from a solar panel?

This is part of my earlier post. Note the part highlighted in Blue !

Anyway, 5,600 Kwh per year for car and house (old house)

According to some solar PV calculators I would need 6.6 Kwp to deliver this energy per year but the contrast in generated power varies considerably, for instance I would generate an Average of 190 Kwh in December to 801 Kwh in July .

Break that down to daily energy would be 6.3 Kwh in December and 26.7 Kwh in July. Now these are averages and any one day can have more or less.

So if I generate 26.7 Kwh daily in July I then have to dump 11.5 Kwh. What a waste. On days I work nights I can charge the car during the day when I'm in bed. But I would still have an excess.



Break that down to daily energy would be 6.3 Kwh in December and 26.7 Kwh in July.


*Now these are averages, on some days in winter you could generate more, or even less. *

You'd also need the car plugged in at home during daylight hours.

It's highly unlikely you can use the energy during the day and for what you get it wouldn't be worth leaving the car without using it.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

He says that FiT is not within his remit

A load of bull. Passing the buck, another politician without balls. Sorry not attacking you here, thanks for posting

A FIT is going to drive up the cost of electricity and most people don't want this. We already pay a high price for energy and everyone has to pay for it too including those who are struggling to put food on the table.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

A FIT is going to drive up the cost of electricity

Any FIT? Why would that be?

I would have thought having micro generation taking off at the same rate as the increase in electricity consumption because of the take up of EVs would be a good thing? No need to increase capacity in the grid, so saving money on investment and maintenance. And it's all privately owned and maintained, with no responsibility for the state. Happy days from a governments point of view, no?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

A load of bull. Passing the buck, another politician without balls. Sorry not attacking you here, thanks for posting

I suppose he is right in his statement that energy regulation is not within his remit. It is the remit of the CER which he is not supposed to interfere with.

I don't know if he has some legislative tool that would allow him to force FiT on the energy providers. Do you? Can he simply pass a law forcing FiT and overruling/bypassing the CER?

unkel

The reason we have politicians is for them to make policies, no?

antoinolachtnai

Energy providers can't do a FIT for domestic customers really. The metering arrangements just don't allow it. It would require system changes.

You can have a feed-in tariff if you are a small commercial customer, as I understand it. You could reclassify as this, get an import/export meter and feed in. You then need a supplier to take you on. You might find one, but the level of payments is going to be pretty low. The off-peak daytime cost of wholesale electricity is not very high.

Next year, the workings of the electricity market will change. This will make it even more economically difficult to pay very small generators than it is now.

It is possible, but the level of payments would be so small that it wouldn't really make PV projects make economic sense.

The only way to really establish a FIT for very small generators is to have a significant subsidy from the PSO.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Energy providers can't do a FIT for domestic customers really. The metering arrangements just don't allow it. It would require system changes.

Why is that? My father put some solar panels on his roof himself in the 90s (not in this country). The house is from 1970 and had its original meter. On a good sunny day, it just ran backwards.

Why are many houses in continental Europe plastered with solar panels, and we can't do it here? We like to throw up obstacles. Computer says no. It's not my remit. Someone elses problem / responsibility.

antoinolachtnai

It really depends on what country. Different countries have very different electricity demand.

The problem is that the price you pay for your domestic electricity is based on the weighted average price of electricity across the day. This system is sort of arbitrary, but it sort-of works.

If you are generating, you are typically generating at a time of the day and year when electricity is very cheap. But when you are consuming, you are typically consuming when electricity is expensive. So if the meter were to just spin backwards, you are effectively being paid far more for the electricity than what it's worth.

And it will get worse. Daytime electricity price is going to collapse in value across Europe as more PV comes on-line. We aren't just talking about the Irish market. This is influenced by interconnection from GB and less directly by France and further afield.

There is an additional complexity as suppliers take on responsibility for the 'balancing' of the grid next year under the i-SEM arrangements. As a supplier, you have to give a schedule for your generation and consumption to the market operator. You need to schedule to the nearest half-hour. As it is impossible to predict when the sun will be shining, it is very difficult to incorporate solar into your schedule.

There is good news in this too of course. There will be cheap solar electricity on the grid which you can access even if you don't have PV panels of your own. Of course, to take advantage of it, you will need appropriate metering.

Germany has a very generous FIT and grant but it's being scaled back more and more and not as good as it was 5 years ago the reason ? it's made electricity costs soar for the public, someone has to pay for it and also it made coal a lot more attractive and it greatly increased dangerous emissions, at least we only have 1 coal plant which is 1 too many but still, the most it adds to the grid is about 20% which is still too much.

Our electricity bills went up because of carbon taxes and levies which went to wind investors and nothing back to the public. This is immoral. If these companies can't survive then the public shouldn't support them and we got nothing in return for this investment the companies got free money , our money !

Our wind energy has also made the Gas plants very inefficient from chatting to the ESB.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The reason we have politicians is for them to make policies, no?

Absolutely. I'm not disagreeing with you. The CER provides convenient cover for him. However, if it is the CER's remit then why don't they do it. That probably where our ire should be focussed.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Energy providers can't do a FIT for domestic customers really. The metering arrangements just don't allow it. It would require system changes.

Can you explain? There was a FiT provided in the country already and there are import/export meters available. There isn't a technical reason it cant be done... is there?

Its more to do with policy, finance and the ESB's vested interest that is inhibiting it, was my understanding.

antoinolachtnai

Well, wind investors did make the capital available to de-carbonise our grid. They naturally needed to get a return. This was the whole point of the REFIT. The reality is that low-carbon electricity has much greater costs, especially up-front costs, compared to conventional electricity. As a society, we have to decide whether we want to pay for it or not. You can't expect to have cheap, renewable, convenient electricity. It doesn't exist yet.

The gas plants run less hours per year, certainly, and this means they don't make as much money. But they aren't less efficient. (The way they are dispatched may result in them being less efficient, but that is more to do with the way the system is managed than the fact of there being wind on the system, and will be resolved by new arrangements next year in any case.)

listermint

https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/16/us-utility-offers-clients-cheap-tesla-batteries-for-grid-backup/

For the first time, a power utility has teamed up with Tesla to use its battery packs for extra grid power during peak usage times. Vermont's Green Mountain Power (GMP) is not only installing Tesla's industrial Powerpacks on utility land, it's also subsidizing home Powerwall 2s for up to 2,000 customers. Rather than firing up polluting diesel generators, the utility can use them to provide electricity around the state. At night, when power usage is low, they're charged back up again.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can't expect to have cheap, renewable, convenient electricity. It doesn't exist yet.

Why not? Let my meter run back and I will install a PV array on my roof. 100% my expense, my responsibility, my maintenance, I don't need a cent subsidy. I guess tens of thousands of people would do the same in the first year this became available.

A massive boost for the local economy, won't cost the tax payer a cent and it will relieve the grid going forward when we will use more electricity than we do now.

And I would obviously love to be in a trial where my EV is used to back up / enhance the grid! :cool:

goz83

unkel wrote: »

Why not? Let my meter run back and I will install a PV array on my roof. 100% my expense, my responsibility, my maintenance, I don't need a cent subsidy. I guess tens of thousands of people would do the same in the first year this became available.

A massive boost for the local economy, won't cost the tax payer a cent and it will relieve the grid going forward when we will use more electricity than we do now.

And I would obviously love to be in a trial where my EV is used to back up / enhance the grid! :cool:

I agree with this.

Would absolutely have my roof covered in panels if there was a FIT.

antoinolachtnai

The reason you can't have this is because the electricity you are putting back into the grid is not worth near as much as the electricity you are drawing from the grid. It is all electricity for sure but there is a very significant market and a lot of scarcity for the electricity that comes from generating stations, but there is no scarcity at all and not much market for the electricity that comes from home PV (or indeed any PV).

The difference between the value of peak time dispatchable electricity and middle-of-the-day electricity which comes and goes with the seasons and the clouds is like the difference between a Maybach and a Skoda. They both basically do the same thing, but you can't expect to sell one for the same price you can buy the other.

listermint

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The reason you can't have this is because the electricity you are putting back into the grid is not worth near as much as the electricity you are drawing from the grid. It is all electricity for sure but there is a very significant market and a lot of scarcity for the electricity that comes from generating stations, but there is no scarcity at all and not much market for the electricity that comes from home PV (or indeed any PV).

The difference between the value of peak time dispatchable electricity and middle-of-the-day electricity which comes and goes with the seasons and the clouds is like the difference between a Maybach and a Skoda. They both basically do the same thing, but you can't expect to sell one for the same price you can buy the other.

Surely its cheaper to have dedicated predictable PV long term and I mean long term rather than rely on energy market fluctuations. It seems they have just got around to doing the maths large-scale but have not yet the foresight of mass small scale.

antoinolachtnai

listermint wrote: »

Surely its cheaper to have dedicated predictable PV long term and I mean long term rather than rely on energy market fluctuations. It seems they have just got around to doing the maths large-scale but have not yet the foresight of mass small scale.

PV insn't predictable in our climate no matter what scale you do it at. It fluctuates a lot more than the current energy market. It is very predictable in one way though - it is absolutely guaranteed not to work when electricity is needed most in Ireland - winter evenings

PV doesn't really work at any scale without a subsidy. The same went for wind too. It is closer to working at large scale for the simple reason that it is cheaper to build per kW at large scale.

If the price of oil were to double then these options would become s lot more attractive. But it's not going to do that by the looks of things.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

PV insn't predictable in our climate no matter what scale you do it at. It fluctuates a lot more than the current energy market.

That's why you store it in all the plugged in EVs. They can release some of it at peak time when there is no solar. Only to be fed back again at night time when there is cheap (wind) electricity of the next daytime when there is cheap (solar) electricity. Simplest ideas are often the best, now to find a way to make it technically and economically work in the next 5-20 years...

listermint

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

PV insn't predictable in our climate no matter what scale you do it at. It fluctuates a lot more than the current energy market. It is very predictable in one way though - it is absolutely guaranteed not to work when electricity is needed most in Ireland - winter evenings

PV doesn't really work at any scale without a subsidy. The same went for wind too. It is closer to working at large scale for the simple reason that it is cheaper to build per kW at large scale.

If the price of oil were to double then these options would become s lot more attractive. But it's not going to do that by the looks of things.

But we have 70 per cent the solar of the Mediterranean. What's not predictable about that

https://goodenergiesalliance.com/6-3-solar/

Dull doesn't mean no solar

aliveandkicking

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

PV insn't predictable in our climate no matter what scale you do it at. It fluctuates a lot more than the current energy market. It is very predictable in one way though - it is absolutely guaranteed not to work when electricity is needed most in Ireland - winter evenings

PV doesn't really work at any scale without a subsidy. The same went for wind too. It is closer to working at large scale for the simple reason that it is cheaper to build per kW at large scale.

If the price of oil were to double then these options would become s lot more attractive. But it's not going to do that by the looks of things.

PV is only unpredictable when you are looking at short periods of time. For example the subject of the OP in this thread is the 1.5kW array that ESB are offering. Short term that array might generate 10kWh on a sunny day like today but only 2kWh if it is a rainy day tomorrow. The unpredictability is day to day only. Looking at it on a longer term basis we know a 1.5kW southerly facing array in Ireland will generate 1200-1400kWh of electricity per year. It is entirely predicable how much PV will generate when you look at it on a yearly basis. When the mindset is shifted to looking at PV from a longer term point of view instead of day to day generation the problem then becomes the need for large scale storage. When every house in the country has a powerwall and a 100kWh car in the driveway connected to a V2G system that problem becomes a lot less of an issue.

antoinolachtnai

Yearly predictability is pretty much useless in the electricity business. You need to predict it half hour by half hour.

Storage solves problems, sure. But the storage medium you need really hasn't been invented yet.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Storage solves problems, sure. But the storage medium you need really hasn't been invented yet.

Cars, surely? If you can ease the peak of grid use by taking electricity out of cars when the owners get home from work and later feed them cheap night rates or daytime solar, the capacity in the grid can go down. We can close a few fossil stations. Electricity will be cheaper and much cleaner than it is now. Obviously this will only work when we have more than just a few thousand EVs...

Shefwedfan

Looking at solarelectric.ie

With 10% discount and taking it I get the HRI

I would be under 4k for 2kW and under 5k for 3kW after discounts

If I do a cost analysis per kW it would be 300 cheaper per kW to go with 3kW system

Still not very cheap. That price includes diverter to hot water....

unkel

Incl VAT? If so, those prices are not that bad considering the immersion diverter is about €500 installed? Not sure if anyone can do it cheaper than that with good quality materials?

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Incl VAT? If so, those prices are not that bad considering the immersion diverter is about €500 installed? Not sure if anyone can do it cheaper than that with good quality materials?

That is what I would end up paying IF
I get 10% discount which ends 31st May
I get the HRI and vat back

If I don't get HRI then add circa 500 quid to each price

antoinolachtnai

Well using cars as storage will work, sure, but you need to leave the car plugged in all the time while parked. You will also reduce the life of the battery when it is parked. And car batteries are going to be more expensive than utility batteries ( because they are space- and weight-constrained. )

And it doesn't solve the problem of winter. There just isn't much sun in winter.

The cost for what we are describing is very high. The batteries and the collectors and the controllers are expensive. Oil and gas is really cheap by comparison. It will need big investment and subsidies. In general it will probably make more sense to have large centralised batteries (at the substation say) rather than lots of small ones. It will be wind all over again really.

noel50

hope this is of interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9upXeTMHUqE&t=55s http://wattson.energyhive.com/dashboard/AndyT http://www.sunamp.com/
Fully Charged is the name of the utube channel which i follow fun and lots of info ty noel

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well using cars as storage will work, sure, but you need to leave the car plugged in all the time while parked.

You only need some of them to be plugged in when the owners come home from work (this is a scenario where a lot of people have already switched to EV). I can imagine that plugging in will no longer be needed (wireless charging) or that plugging in is by robot at that stage

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You will also reduce the life of the battery when it is parked.

No longer relevant. Most EVs come with 8 year battery warranty already. Some with a lifetime warranty. Batteries are holding up much better than was previously assumed

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

And car batteries are going to be more expensive than utility batteries

Car batteries are free. They come with your car

Utility batteries were extremely expensive but are coming down in price. Maybe they are part of the solution too, but why spend money buying additional hardware when you already own the hardware needed (EV)?

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well using cars as storage will work, sure, but you need to leave the car plugged in all the time while parked. You will also reduce the life of the battery when it is parked. And car batteries are going to be more expensive than utility batteries ( because they are space- and weight-constrained. )

And it doesn't solve the problem of winter. There just isn't much sun in winter.

The cost for what we are describing is very high. The batteries and the collectors and the controllers are expensive. Oil and gas is really cheap by comparison. It will need big investment and subsidies. In general it will probably make more sense to have large centralised batteries (at the substation say) rather than lots of small ones. It will be wind all over again really.

I agree, however , electric cars can store the electricity from commercial wind and solar PV farms but on a domestic scale it's just uneconomical and anyone thinking otherwise are delusional.

People are talking about getting solar PV to end up dumping the excess which is just ridiculous.

antoinolachtnai

unkel wrote: »

...

No longer relevant. Most EVs come with 8 year battery warranty already. Some with a lifetime warranty. Batteries are holding up much better than was previously assumed

Car batteries are free. They come with your car

Utility batteries were extremely expensive but are coming down in price. Maybe they are part of the solution too, but why spend money buying additional hardware when you already own the hardware needed (EV)?

You won't get an eight-year warranty on your battery if it is being used to run your house at night. The higher number of cycles will break down the battery faster.

Utility batteries will always be significantly cheaper than car batteries.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Even if you use the full 1,500kWh and stick it into your EV (all of it!), it will have saved you about €100 per year at 7c night rate

In practice you might only use half during the day and use it for your house. In that case you will also save about €100 per year at day rates

Even if you could get this installation done for €2.5k instead of the €4.5k they are looking for, payback would be at least 25 years, probably a lot more taking into account system maintenance and less than ideal use of the units produced...

And don't even think of spending money to divert excess to immersion, as that will save you just about nothing taking into account the extra cost of hardware and installation

We need FIT, Minister, wake up!!!

Agreed. Unless solar PV dramatically drops in price , you have to have the ability to time shift solar energy

BoatMad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You won't get an eight-year warranty on your battery if it is being used to run your house at night. The higher number of cycles will break down the battery faster.

Utility batteries will always be significantly cheaper than car batteries.

Li batteries by and large degrade via parasitic action rather then chsrge cycles. Hence degradation is more a calander life issue rather then a usage one.. the main reason your iPhone degrades after a few years is not be because you've been charging it , it's that " a few years " have passed.

Hence using the car battery in support of a solar PV array would have little effect on degradation.

cnocbui

Without a very practical and cost effective energy storage technology - which we don't have - Solar and wind power have to be fully backed by conventional electricity generation capacity, meaning you have two complete sets of energy generation infrastructure and have to pay for both. It's wasteful and stupid. Idealism triumphing over reality.

We are going to need 8% more conventional generation capacity just to power Apple's data centre near Athenry, just so Apple can lie to the world about it being 100% powered from renewable energy - sickening.

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

antoinolachtnai

That is mostly true in my experience but tesla won't give you their full guarantee for the power wall if you are using it in a way that it cycles more than once a day as far as I know.

BoatMad

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

What a bizarre , uninformed and simply bonkets comment

BoatMad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is mostly true in my experience but tesla won't give you their full guarantee for the power wall if you are using it in a way that it cycles more than once a day as far as I know.

Huh. Nonsense

BoatMad

cnocbui wrote: »

Without a very practical and cost effective energy storage technology - which we don't have - Solar and wind power have to be fully backed by conventional electricity generation capacity, meaning you have two complete sets of energy generation infrastructure and have to pay for both. It's wasteful and stupid. Idealism triumphing over reality.

We are going to need 8% more conventional generation capacity just to power Apple's data centre near Athenry, just so Apple can lie to the world about it being 100% powered from renewable energy - sickening.

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

The key is grid interconnection , which allows different locations of green energy to back each other up.

That's the strategy esb is working towards.

Of course the ultimate answer is clearly nuclear

antoinolachtnai

Discussion of powerwall category 2 warranty here.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/powerwall-2-warranty/

BoatMad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Discussion of powerwall category 2 warranty here.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/powerwall-2-warranty/

Yes while the new powerwall warranty is largely junk since it does not set limits on battery degradation. , I was just addressing the poster comments about chsrge cycles

Here the applicable piece

"
Tesla Motors, Inc. warrants that your Powerwall will be free from defects for ten years following the date it was installed for the first time. If you only use your Powerwall for self-consumption of solar energy generated by an onsite array and for storing that solar energy for use as backup power, there is no limit on the number of times that you can cycle your battery in this ten year period."

Note , " no limit " to cycles

Li industry is largely moving away from cycling issues as these have not found to particularly pertinent in Li aging

loyatemu

family of 5 in a 4-bed semi - our electricity usage (excluding the standing and PSO charges) is only a little over €500 a year.
I reckon we spend no more than 70c a day on heating water (gas boiler) so maybe €240 per year on that.

how much of this could we realistically save by putting a PV system on the roof - we do a lot of washing which I guess could be mostly done during the day, but don't have a tumble dryer (anyway, on dry sunny days we'd hang the clothes outdoors). Even if we saved 50% of the costs above, the payback would still be 13 years (and 50% seems very optimistic).