What are your essential Irish Infrastructure projects, in order of need?

billyduk

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'm not talking about the Lynch tunnel being built, but I was told that it was meant to be tolled, and before it opened there was a by-election.

It was never tolled as a result of by-election promises.

Only what I heard, and open to correction on that matter.

Ah Ok.

I don't remember if they were initially going to toll it, but they should toll it after the Dunkettle Interchange is done.

68000 x 365 x €1.80 = €44,676,000 per year.

The Dunkettle interchange would be paid for in 30 months at that rate.

I know there was a lot of objections to the idea when it was thrown around a few years ago, but thats to be expected. Barrier free tolling between Mahon Point exit and the tunnel would make sense.

lucernarian

@Seanw while I agree that on-street parking is not inherently "evil" or an unequivocally-bad thing, it's clear in places like the Navan Road in Dublin that it can and does cause logistical and congestion issues.

For the most part, people ought to sort out their own mess and convert the front lawn to a driveway if necessary. The public road should not be treated as someone's private space really, especially where everyone else is inconvenienced and delayed, or in the case of cyclists, stuck between the risk of being doored or being knocked down by overtaking vehicles.

Chuchote

SeanW wrote: »

Gas tends to contain radon, so burning it makes gas-fired power plants emit more radiation than a similar capacity nuclear power plant. Literally, if gas fired power plants were regulated for radiological emissions in the same way that nuclear power is, all the gas plants all over the world would fail that regulation and be shut down. Yet the environmental movement has no problem with this.

Surely then it would be better not to be piping it to people's homes?

On street parking is "inefficient"? Who says so?

It's pretty obvious that taking up huge amounts of expensive street surface for parking cars is inefficient. In Japan, you're not allowed to buy a car without producing evidence that you have a private place to park it; in the cities, parking is in high-rise car parks. Much more efficient than having one-third of the street surface taken up by people's private property.

Renewables are garbage. Wind mills are monstrous, ugly and noisy.

A matter of taste - to me and to many others they're beautiful, and the 'noisy' - well, I was climbing Mount Leinster and got a surprise when I turned a corner and found myself beside three or four windmills - hadn't realised they were there while climbing, certainly hadn't heard them.

As for the poor bats, I don't see many people providing bat houses for them to live in. I'd love bats in my garden, but they only live now in remote areas.

Solar is a little bit better in that the placement of them is not an ecological disaster, but again, they produce power when the sun shines, not when needed. This has obvious implications for ... oh say ... the Irish winter, i.e. 9 months of the year. So it doesn't matter if the solar panels are free, unless you find a way to store power cheaply for winter they're always going to be useless.

I think you may be mixing up the older models of photovoltaic panels here with the thermal panels (for heating water) that I'm talking about. Thermal solar panels work very well in the Irish climate and could make a big cut in our electricity bills (a large chunk of which go towards heating water).

Photovoltaic (solar panels for powering electricity, rather than heating water) is improving; efficiency, an engineer told me recently, has improved 800% in… can't remember how many years - 10, maybe?

SeanW

Chuchote wrote: »

Surely then it would be better not to be piping it to people's homes?

I explained above how its more efficient to pipe it to people's homes. If you must burn a fossil fuel or peat for heat, it is much more efficient to do it on site. I've already explained this, but I will illustrate with an example.

I have a number of cousins in one family, each of the young men in it is building his own house on a family farm. Each of them have included solid fuels stoves, and in one case, a new solid fuel range, in their builds. The fella with the range is a particular case. Because when he moves in and starts lighting fires in the range, from that one fire he will able to:

• Heat the room with about 4KW of heat. for several hours.
• Put about 2KW of heat into each of the radiators in the house. also for several hours.
• Heat the water in the tank for a bath/shower.
• Cook a meal.
• Make the tea.

Cost: a few pieces of turf or firewood.

To do the same thing with electricity he would need to run:
2X 2KW heaters in the room where the range would be.
6X 2KW heaters (roughly) for each of the other radiators.
1X 1KW immersion.
Indeterminate amounts of electricity for cooking and running an electric kettle, say 3-5 units per day. For the sake of argument assume each unit (KWH) costs 20 cents.
Cost: €3.20 per hour in electricity to heat the house, followed by at least 20c to run the immersion for each bath or shower, followed by an indeterminate amount for cooking and tea-making.

In the winter, this would stupidly expensive and it would result in more carbon emissions as the power plant would have to burn similar fuel, lose energy in conversion and transmission so twice, three times or more fuel would have to be burned to get the same heating power. It makes no sense.

A matter of taste - to me and to many others they're beautiful, and the 'noisy' - well, I was climbing Mount Leinster and got a surprise when I turned a corner and found myself beside three or four windmills - hadn't realised they were there while climbing, certainly hadn't heard them.

Their bases are 3 times the size of the Dublin Spire and their blades are the size of a railway carriage. They're monsters.

As for the poor bats, I don't see many people providing bat houses for them to live in. I'd love bats in my garden, but they only live now in remote areas.

Thank you for proving my point - wind mills are usually placed in "remote areas" that's why they are on par with (if not exceeding) White Nose Syndrome as an existential threat: see here.

I think you may be mixing up the older models of photovoltaic panels here with the thermal panels (for heating water) that I'm talking about. Thermal solar panels work very well in the Irish climate and could make a big cut in our electricity bills (a large chunk of which go towards heating water).

Yes, they might help with heating water in the summer time.

Photovoltaic (solar panels for powering electricity, rather than heating water) is improving; efficiency, an engineer told me recently, has improved 800% in… can't remember how many years - 10, maybe?

It doesn't matter how efficient they become - even if super efficient solar panels could be made for free, all they would do is aggravate the winter peak by creating a wider gap between the summer time (when less electricity is needed for heating etc but the sun shines strongly) and winter time (when solar panels would be useless but the need for electricity would be much greater). You would still need 6GW of fossil fuel fired plant to cover the winter, but the business case for each plant to contribute to that would be much dimmer without higher energy costs. Unless a way is found to harvest energy in summer and store it for the winter, solar in Ireland is a bad idea.

Chuchote

SeanW wrote: »

all they would do is aggravate the winter peak by creating a wider gap between the summer time (when less electricity is needed for heating etc but the sun shines strongly) and winter time (when solar panels would be useless but the need for electricity would be much greater).

But that would mean that half of our electricity needs would be wiped out!

An awful lot of naah-can't-be-done-ism in this thread.

Incidentally, why is nobody talking about the other infrastructural needs I and others cite: a good health service and superb education, for instance?

Zebra3

Chuchote wrote: »

But that would mean that half of our electricity needs would be wiped out!

An awful lot of naah-can't-be-done-ism in this thread.

Incidentally, why is nobody talking about the other infrastructural needs I and others cite: a good health service and superb education, for instance?

I'd see them as services, not infrastructure.

Yourself isit

SeanW wrote: »

I explained above how its more efficient to pipe it to people's homes. If you must burn a fossil fuel or peat for heat, it is much more efficient to do it on site. I've already explained this, but I will illustrate with an example.

I have a number of cousins in one family, each of the young men in it is building his own house on a family farm. Each of them have included solid fuels stoves, and in one case, a new solid fuel range, in their builds. The fella with the range is a particular case. Because when he moves in and starts lighting fires in the range, from that one fire he will able to:

• Heat the room with about 4KW of heat. for several hours.
• Put about 2KW of heat into each of the radiators in the house. also for several hours.
• Heat the water in the tank for a bath/shower.
• Cook a meal.
• Make the tea.

Cost: a few pieces of turf or firewood.

To do the same thing with electricity he would need to run:
2X 2KW heaters in the room where the range would be.
6X 2KW heaters (roughly) for each of the other radiators.
1X 1KW immersion.
Indeterminate amounts of electricity for cooking and running an electric kettle, say 3-5 units per day. For the sake of argument assume each unit (KWH) costs 20 cents.
Cost: €3.20 per hour in electricity to heat the house, followed by at least 20c to run the immersion for each bath or shower, followed by an indeterminate amount for cooking and tea-making.

In the winter, this would stupidly expensive and it would result in more carbon emissions as the power plant would have to burn similar fuel, lose energy in conversion and transmission so twice, three times or more fuel would have to be burned to get the same heating power. It makes no sense.

Their bases are 3 times the size of the Dublin Spire and their blades are the size of a railway carriage. They're monsters.

Thank you for proving my point - wind mills are usually placed in "remote areas" that's why they are on par with (if not exceeding) White Nose Syndrome as an existential threat: see here.

Yes, they might help with heating water in the summer time.

It doesn't matter how efficient they become - even if super efficient solar panels could be made for free, all they would do is aggravate the winter peak by creating a wider gap between the summer time (when less electricity is needed for heating etc but the sun shines strongly) and winter time (when solar panels would be useless but the need for electricity would be much greater). You would still need 6GW of fossil fuel fired plant to cover the winter, but the business case for each plant to contribute to that would be much dimmer without higher energy costs. Unless a way is found to harvest energy in summer and store it for the winter, solar in Ireland is a bad idea.

Even if solar works in summer it can significantly reduce carbon emissions in those months (potentially to zero) which can offset the cost of non renewables in winter (but hey winter is windier so might not be needed).

bk

billyduk wrote: »

Stroke politics? Cork City would have ground to a halt long ago without it. It takes 68,000 vehicles away from the city centre every single day. Compare that to the Dublin Port Tunnel which cost 10 times as much, yet only takes 15,000 away from the City centre.

Just to point out, you can't compare the two, they were designed to do two very different things.

The port tunnel was designed to get trucks from/to Dublin Port to the M50. Most importantly to take they off the city streets and suburbs.

As a Corkonian who lives in a part of Dublin that use to have 18 wheelers rumble by houses and playgrounds every day, the port tunnel has been a magnificent success at it's goal. Removing trucks from the city streets and creating a much nicer place to live.

The fact that it carries less cars is a feature. They don't want cars delaying the trucks and buses that use the port tunnel.

The policy in Dublin is to get cars out of the city center all together, not facilitate pouring tens of thousands of cars into Medieval city streets that can't handle them.

Chuchote

bk wrote: »

The policy in Dublin is to get cars out of the city center all together, not facilitate pouring tens of thousands of cars into Medieval city streets that can't handle them.

Basically true - but only about three streets in Dublin are actually mediaeval.

karma_coma

Have your say on vision of Dublin's future:

https://www.greatdublinsurvey.ie/

I suggested DART Underground/ Metro North/increase high-density building/ banning building outside the M50.

Harry Palmr

Renew water main pipes.

AnGaelach

NIMAN wrote: »

I'd think a massive investment to break our reliance on fossil fuels would be the best thing we could do.

Maybe lot of offshore wind farms or tidal generators.

Wind farms still require back-up generators which are reliant upon fossil fuels. If you want to actually reduce your carbon emissions the most you can - go nuclear.

LeinsterDub

AnGaelach wrote: »

Wind farms still require back-up generators which are reliant upon fossil fuels. If you want to actually reduce your carbon emissions the most you can - go nuclear.

By the time we got it built battery technology will be able to smooth out most of the lows

Sam Russell

AnGaelach wrote: »

Wind farms still require back-up generators which are reliant upon fossil fuels. If you want to actually reduce your carbon emissions the most you can - go nuclear.

Not entirely true.

You can use batteries to backup wind energy - or at least Tesla say they can.

AnGaelach

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not entirely true.

You can use batteries to backup wind energy - or at least Tesla say they can.

I don't know how long that would take to become feasible on a large scale - the French wanted to roll back their nuclear power and replace it with solar/wind but has been criticised for being the less clean of the two. Maybe as time goes on it'll become more viable.

McAlban

Speaking of Wind...

what a great idea... finally catching up with other European countries.

http://www.dublinarray.com/index.html

But, Then you have the NIMBY's...

http://www.saveourseafront.net/dublin-array-wind-farm-proposal.html

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

I am biased about this but I think all of our cities and towns need to invest in proper cycling infrastructure for commuters. Secure, safe locking facilities to in cbd centres.

Anything to reduce the number of cars has to be a good thing. There should be a national policy on cycling infrastructure that all council's must meet.

For that you would need to instal an even more basic piece of infrastructure: a titter of sense installed in every politician and councillor.

Sam Russell

MOD: I have created a new thread here to discuss the problems arising from the Drogheda pipeline blow-out. Relevant posts have been moved. This is to keep this thread on track.

ClovenHoof

Audrina Screeching Sluggishness wrote: »

There's one single solution, but it's certainly not cheap.
A new eco-city in a geo-population density centric (sparse) location.
Much the same that China is building outside Chengdu.
Room for up to 100,000 which will de-stress all other locations.

There's a couple of ideal positions for it,
between a couple of town population pyramids/quads.

Go away.

Sam Russell

Audrina Screeching Sluggishness wrote: »

There's one single solution, but it's certainly not cheap.
A new eco-city in a geo-population density centric (sparse) location.
Much the same that China is building outside Chengdu.
Room for up to 100,000 which will de-stress all other locations.

There's a couple of ideal positions for it,
between a couple of town population pyramids/quads.

If we cannot build MN or DU because we have neither the money nor the political will, then there is absolutely no chance such a plan could even get more than a mention in a newspaper in a slow news week in the silly season.

Chuchote

Sam Russell wrote: »

If we cannot build MN or DU because we have neither the money nor the political will, then there is absolutely no chance such a plan could even get more than a mention in a newspaper in a slow news week in the silly season.

MN? DU?

bk

Chuchote wrote: »

MN? DU?

MN - Metro North, now looking like it is going to be called Dublin Metro. Underground from city center out to the Airport and Swords and likely to head south now too along the Green Luas line.

DU - DART Underground, Underground tunnel going East - West roughly linking Connolly and Hueston.

They basically form a cross through the city. North - South, East - West

Doltanian

What I think needs to happen and be done shortly. I give priority to project which effect me locally here in Kerry first.

1. Macroom Bypass, thankfully it appears to be progressing albeit slowly.

2. M20 Limerick to Cork + Adare Bypass build a southward spur south of Adare to create a bypass of the town with a junction on the New M20 heading north and south, divert Kerry and West Limerick traffic around Adare without the need for a northern bypass. Build this as part of the M20 project giving huge benefit to Cork, Limerick and also Kerry traffic.

3. Lissarda Bypass, basically extend the Ballincollig Bypass to connect to the newly built Macroom Bypass circa 2020 sometime.

4. N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale Upgrades, build short bypasses around Abbeyfeale, Newcastle West, Templeglantine and Croagh. With particular emphasis on Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West, both towns which have incredibly long roads leading into them because of pathetic planning and town sprawl. The 50km/h limit is around 4 kilometres long through both towns wheras Croagh and Templeglantine are both under 1 km.

5. National Broadband Plan, number one on my non Road infrastructure plan is Fibre to the Home for every house in Ireland.

6. Not even Infrastructure related but still. I think it a terrible joke of a system that Irish Rail runs its last train to Kerry at 7pm and to Cork at 9pm when there should be a skeletal barebones service say every two hours through the night. A simple one or two car DMU would suffice.

7. Dublin Metro should be build and start ASAP, I would like to think that there would be enough long term vision to build it in 5ft 3 inches or else dual guage the part going under Dublin Airport to allow for new future rail services e.g. Cork-Heuston-Dublin Airport and maybe even onto Belfast every 2 hrs etc. Building passing loops in the Metro would allow for some joined up thinking. And many major Airports in Europe like Schipol in Amsterdam incorporate inter city rail into their rail link. I'd build the Metro to 5ft 3 Irish guage and there is nothing worse than incompatible systems as we will now see with the Southern Luas Green Line.

nairy hipples

Doltanian wrote: »

What I think needs to happen and be done shortly. I give priority to project which effect me locally here in Kerry first.

1. Macroom Bypass, thankfully it appears to be progressing albeit slowly.

2. M20 Limerick to Cork + Adare Bypass build a southward spur south of Adare to create a bypass of the town with a junction on the New M20 heading north and south, divert Kerry and West Limerick traffic around Adare without the need for a northern bypass. Build this as part of the M20 project giving huge benefit to Cork, Limerick and also Kerry traffic.

3. Lissarda Bypass, basically extend the Ballincollig Bypass to connect to the newly built Macroom Bypass circa 2020 sometime.

4. N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale Upgrades, build short bypasses around Abbeyfeale, Newcastle West, Templeglantine and Croagh. With particular emphasis on Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West, both towns which have incredibly long roads leading into them because of pathetic planning and town sprawl. The 50km/h limit is around 4 kilometres long through both towns wheras Croagh and Templeglantine are both under 1 km.

5. National Broadband Plan, number one on my non Road infrastructure plan is Fibre to the Home for every house in Ireland.

6. Not even Infrastructure related but still. I think it a terrible joke of a system that Irish Rail runs its last train to Kerry at 7pm and to Cork at 9pm when there should be a skeletal barebones service say every two hours through the night. A simple one or two car DMU would suffice.

7. Dublin Metro should be build and start ASAP, I would like to think that there would be enough long term vision to build it in 5ft 3 inches or else dual guage the part going under Dublin Airport to allow for new future rail services e.g. Cork-Heuston-Dublin Airport and maybe even onto Belfast every 2 hrs etc. Building passing loops in the Metro would allow for some joined up thinking. And many major Airports in Europe like Schipol in Amsterdam incorporate inter city rail into their rail link. I'd build the Metro to 5ft 3 Irish guage and there is nothing worse than incompatible systems as we will now see with the Southern Luas Green Line.

So in order of importance you'd argue that an overnight train to Kerry is more important that a Metro for the capital...?

Harry Palmr

Doltanian wrote: »

What I think needs to happen and be done shortly. I give priority to project which effect me locally here in Kerry first.

nairy hipples wrote: »

So in order of importance you'd argue that an overnight train to Kerry is more important that a Metro for the capital...?

road_high

nairy hipples wrote: »

So in order of importance you'd argue that an overnight train to Kerry is more important that a Metro for the capital...?

Thing is, if parochial gombeenism hadn't stood in the way, many of those projects could have been delivered already ahead of those within the Kerry county bounds which handle far less traffic- Tralee bypass for example.

marno21

Doltanian wrote: »

What I think needs to happen and be done shortly. I give priority to project which effect me locally here in Kerry first.

1. Macroom Bypass, thankfully it appears to be progressing albeit slowly.

2. M20 Limerick to Cork + Adare Bypass build a southward spur south of Adare to create a bypass of the town with a junction on the New M20 heading north and south, divert Kerry and West Limerick traffic around Adare without the need for a northern bypass. Build this as part of the M20 project giving huge benefit to Cork, Limerick and also Kerry traffic.

3. Lissarda Bypass, basically extend the Ballincollig Bypass to connect to the newly built Macroom Bypass circa 2020 sometime.

4. N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale Upgrades, build short bypasses around Abbeyfeale, Newcastle West, Templeglantine and Croagh. With particular emphasis on Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West, both towns which have incredibly long roads leading into them because of pathetic planning and town sprawl. The 50km/h limit is around 4 kilometres long through both towns wheras Croagh and Templeglantine are both under 1 km.

5. National Broadband Plan, number one on my non Road infrastructure plan is Fibre to the Home for every house in Ireland.

6. Not even Infrastructure related but still. I think it a terrible joke of a system that Irish Rail runs its last train to Kerry at 7pm and to Cork at 9pm when there should be a skeletal barebones service say every two hours through the night. A simple one or two car DMU would suffice.

7. Dublin Metro should be build and start ASAP, I would like to think that there would be enough long term vision to build it in 5ft 3 inches or else dual guage the part going under Dublin Airport to allow for new future rail services e.g. Cork-Heuston-Dublin Airport and maybe even onto Belfast every 2 hrs etc. Building passing loops in the Metro would allow for some joined up thinking. And many major Airports in Europe like Schipol in Amsterdam incorporate inter city rail into their rail link. I'd build the Metro to 5ft 3 Irish guage and there is nothing worse than incompatible systems as we will now see with the Southern Luas Green Line.

1. Macroom Bypass to start January 2020 +- 6 months

2. Adare bypass is going ahead with a route north of Adare connecting to the existing N21 Rathkeale bypass near the R518 junction, likely to motorway standard. The correct routing in fairness, as the southern route is very circuitous.

3. N22 Macroom-Ovens was suspended but hopefully revived as a "pipeline project". Won't be seen this side of 2025 though.

4. The N21 needs dualling (2+2 Castleisland bypass standard) from the end of the new M21 at Rathkeale to the Kerry border. Mickey mouse bypasses of the towns will just create pinchpoints and development related congestion at the roundabouts at either end. Killarney bypass mess needs to be avoided in future.

Chuchote

Countrywide broadband is certainly vital.

Bypasses are important, but for me a nationwide cycle network would be more useful - protected so the drivers can't get at the cyclists :P

We're heading to be the fattest country in Europe, and we're digging our graves with our forks, and taking virtually no exercise. Time to change our passivity and become fit, intelligent and self-starting.

4068ac1elhodqr

Sam Russell wrote: »

If we cannot build MN or DU because we have neither the money nor the political will, then there is absolutely no chance such a plan could even get more than a mention in a newspaper in a slow news week in the silly season.

True, it's unlikely anything innovative would ever be done, so instead lets forge ahead with those cycle lanes that will frustrate drivers, become largely unused everytime it rains. Yes, build multiple town bypasses. Have expensive upgrades and other congestion solutions to millenia aged towns, that a new city plan would help solve anyway.

The rest of the world (obviously China and Dubai), but also in places such as Guinea, Ethiopia, The West Bank. They'll plan and build their new cities from scratch and march forward into the 4th Industrial Revolution. Largely become traffic-jam free, save on productivity performance and possibly end up having more free places in schools and hospitals.

http://weburbanist.com/2009/10/13/12-cities-from-scratch/

Irish Steve

I despair.


I'm not going to go off into a mega rant about Drogheda water, as that has it's own thread, but in theory, this thread is about Infrastructure, at a national level, and so much of what's been put into it is local parish pump type issues, and related to transport, which is only one part of infrastructure, which covers so much more than how much time and money we spend on getting from home to work and back each day.

No one has mentioned in detail things like education.

How many schools around the country still have things like outdoor toilets, outdated and inadequate portakabins as classrooms, no facilities for sports or play, and completely dangerous and inadequate access to and from the site that makes delivering and collecting children downright dangerous for all concerned. We still force very young children to carry massive numbers of heavy paper books to and from classes, because there's nowhere to store them in the schools, due to a lack of space as classes are massively bigger than the spaces that have to accommodate them. Many of the school buildings are old, badly maintained, expensive to maintain and operate, and don't have modern and essential services like broadband.

Health care, there are so many issues here, one of the main ones being that too many of the hospitals that have to carry the bulk of the workload are in the wrong places, with inadequate buildings that are horribly out of date, expensive to maintain, heat and service, and with inadequate parking and transport facilities to get staff and patients in and out of the facility easily. Too much money is spent on administrative tasks related to ensuring that insurance companies pay for everything they've used, rather than having a truly comprehensive system that doesn't need excessive management.

Electricity. If the latest direction for things like vehicles is correct, the national grid is going to have to be massively ugraded to ensure that adequate power can be delivered to residential areas to charge electric vehicles overnight, as well as requiring massive additional generation capacity, and if things like coal and oil are going to be displaced, if electric heating replaces them, that will also massively increase the demand for power, as the time and costs involved in upgrading properties to be energy efficient will mean that a lot of power will be needed to keep houses warm in winter.

Water and Waste water. How ever unpopular this elephant in the room might be, there will have to be a massive investment in both water and waste water treatment to avoid huge fines from the EU relating to pollution, and to ensure that we don't have a population that's sick due to water pollution issues.

Waste in general. The polluter pays is a fallacy, as too often, and we're seeing more and more of this, the polluter dumps waste in the countryside or somewhere inappropriate when no one is looking. The costs of dealing with waste are not going to go away any time soon, so we have to find ways to reduce the quantities of rubbish that have to be disposed of, by reducing packaging, and changing the throw away culture that means change things just because you can.

I could say a lot more, but I wonder if I'm wasting my time, if the present level of engagement is anything to go by, if what I've seen in this thread so far is indicative of the level of engagement in our collective future, I wonder how successful that future will be