It goes from bad to worse for the Gardai

robbiezero

GarIT wrote: »

There are only tWo types of people in the RCC, those who commit abuse and those who have covered it up. Not a single good person has ever been catholic

Not a fan of the Catholic Church by any means, but if you had said that on this site about Muslims or Islam you would think it was your birthday with all the cards you would be getting.

Ulysses Gaze

Time to disband the Keystones and start a completely new and modern police force.

Kivaro

shar01 wrote: »

There is a culture of unprofessionalism in the force.

Which is why we need to start from scratch and create a brand new police force. The last straw for me was when the Gardai threatened to strike and had the country in a tizzy fearing a country-wide crime wave apocalypse while the boys in blue held up picket signs.

Accepting that there are dedicated and conscientious Gardai out there doing a great job, unprofessionalism is ingrained in the force as a whole.

Just thinking about the 1,000,000 false breathalyzer tests that were submitted by Gardai; what were they actually doing when they should have been conducting these 1,000,000 tests? Submitting false reports/statistics into the Pulse system took effort and those involved should be fired and prosecuted; otherwise what is the moral of this story?

There seems to be an all out blitz now with checkpoints on the road i.e. after the horse has bolted. They were caught cheating and now they are trying to make amends. I am extremely suspicious on how Garda management will try to tie these new checkpoints and breathalyzer tests into legacy reporting. And I never realised that we had so many Gardai on the force with the amount of checkpoints going on; were Gardai pulled from other areas (e.g. burglary patrols) for this blitz? And what is going on in Templemore; is this where new Gardai are learning how to be bad cops?

I have lost confidence and trust with the Gardai and it will take more than a new commissioner to make up for it. Genuine root and branch change (even though it is a cliché phrase) is required.

BlinkingLights

Wow! Just wow! What kind of weird inter age-group arguments have I just stepped into?!

Plenty of 35+ year olds have had their lives absolutely turned upside down during the 2008 recession/collapse. People lost jobs, businesses closed, debts mounted. Others missed opportunities or lost jobs and are in exactly the same position as those under 35.

I know loads of people in their late 30s now who were basically left with no option but to emigrate in 2008-10.

Even speaking of much older generations, I know couples in their 80s who lost everything as they had money in AIB and Anglo shares and went from what should have been a comfortable retirement to being on just the state pension.

Whoever's posting this nonsense needs to get off their high horse and appreciate that we are *all* in this together and that dividing the country into conveniently sized groups to pit against one another is absolutely counterproductive and very unwelcome.

As for the Gardai : see next on topic post !

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote:

Well you're effectively a tacit supporter of an organisation found the world over to be guilty of obscene crimes. Not the greatest thing to be.

I don't think the RCC was founded or maintained for the specific purpose of abuse but it has been a victim of its own circumstances in that it became both a safe haven and an opportunity for abuse perpetrators.
The former because it prevented societal questions relating to forming and having sexual relationships and the latter because it was acceptable for them to be in a position of isolation and dominance over vulnerable people.
I absolutely agree that it did not handle proven instances of abuse correctly. I think this was because it was commonplace for it not to be challenged in any of its views, financial, political, the role of the woman etc. But I think the percentage of its members who actually committed or condoned such behaviour is very small and is larger that a comprable percentage from other elements of society in part because of the supporting conditions listed above.
I've known a number of "disciples" of the organization, both male and female, and my experience has been that they only behave in accordance with the positive purpose of the organization.

Look at the recent announcements relating to abuse in football. Do you think every club and national team is guilty of this? Do you think every fan should step away from the sport because of this sins of a few?

Curly Judge

I wonder if Chris Patton is still available for hire?

BlinkingLights

I think what we are witnessing is a systemic failure of corporate governance and management structures. Blaming one commissioner for the entire mess is not really going to achieve much.

What is needed is a total review of the entire structure from the bottom up and the top down and an entirely new system put in place.

It would be better for the public as we could regain confidence in the Gardai and it would be much better for the Gardai as they would be working in a far better, healthier, more predictable and more pleasant environment and could get on with their job and know they had a structure that supports them in doing that.

The current situation is bad for both society and members of the force.

The Government really needs to step in and bring in some kind of expertise and best practice from multiple outside sources.

The situation isn't quite as extreme as the old RUC, but it does seem like we might need a reform as dramatic as the PSNI to just sort everything out and start on a new page.

nhunter100

myshirt wrote:

Plain and simple, you can't afford to pay their exorbitant pensions, pay their loans for excesses during the boom (how many guards own second homes), pay these wages that are just nuts, all while this type of sh't is going on. You have your own rent to pay, house to buy, family to build, life to live, or whatever you want to do with yourself. You certainly don't deserve this, because it is the biggest F#CK YOU that has ever been going on when it comes to youth and those under 35. F#ck you. Pay our pensions. Pay our wages. Pay our expenses. Pay our 35 days off. Pay your rent (to us and our generation). Pay the billions of debt we benefited directly from but you didn't. And shut your f#cking mouth. We are going to do whatever we want. We are going to stitch up innocent whistleblowers. Fake driving offences. Ignore rape or sexual assaults if it's someone we know. Beat you down on water charges. Let violence and drugs run riot in your community. Suicides, murders, we don't give a f#ck unless it affects someone important. The message is loud and clear youth of Ireland. Fuuuuuuck you.

You tirade applies equally to over 35's. Good points regardless.

MyStubbleItches

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I think what we are witnessing is a systemic failure of corporate governance and management structures. Blaming one commissioner for the entire mess is not really going to achieve much.

No, but a little bit of honesty from her wouldn't go astray. She didn't get to the top of the organisation while oblivious to all the corruption, secrecy and wrongdoings. I for one have zero respect for or confidence in her. She's part of the problem and at this stage it's quite clear that she certainly isn't willing to be a part of the solution.

inajock

I for one have zero respect or conference in anyone who is a member of An Garda Siochana.Why would I there corrupt.

Erik Shin

inajock wrote: »

I for one have zero respect or conference in anyone who is a member of An Garda Siochana.Why would I there corrupt.

Maybe you've had a conference or 2 with the Gardai already?

inajock

Erik Shin wrote: »

Maybe you've had a conference or 2 with the Gardai already?

correct but a judge differed with them.

Jamiekelly

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

No, but a little bit of honesty from her wouldn't go astray. She didn't get to the top of the organisation while oblivious to all the corruption, secrecy and wrongdoings. I for one have zero respect for or confidence in her. She's part of the problem and at this stage it's quite clear that she certainly isn't willing to be a part of the solution.

She doesn't seem to really think there is a problem at all when you get past her press office waffle. Hollow words thrown into the same echo chamber of commissioners past.

Remember her position and what this story is about, this makes her "invincibility" to any politicians criticism very suspect. Purposely tapping innocent people tends to suggest or lead to blackmail, and it's not like senior officials in government institutions have never tapped or undermined other senior officials in seperate government institutions before. This is high politics and according to her job description she must play her politician role when the time suits.

The fact that she has been at the very top reaches of the Garda for over a decade does not help her case of being a "force for positive change" as so many others (mostly politicians) claim. She's been an assistant commissioner since 2007, they tend to not be in the dark on things like this. Especially given the scale of it.

No confidence in her should be the default position considering how she has handled things so far.

BlinkingLights

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

No, but a little bit of honesty from her wouldn't go astray. She didn't get to the top of the organisation while oblivious to all the corruption, secrecy and wrongdoings. I for one have zero respect for or confidence in her. She's part of the problem and at this stage it's quite clear that she certainly isn't willing to be a part of the solution.

A major part of the solution would have to be transferring many of the commissioner's functions to a transparent and openly accountable Garda Commission.

You're looking at an organisation that is probably still using management practices that date back to the old RIC. In many respects the problems internally (other than the community relations / sectarianism aspect) may be very similar as the two forces had a very similar origin.

Actually, they also come from a far more militaristic background than most British or American police forces, so there may well be serious issues with internal flows of information, hierarchies and so on.

The RUC reforms into the PSNI are probably a very good starting point.

The worst possible outcome is just a change of personalities without any reform. It looks impressive and it probably fulfils a political point scoring exercise but it will achieve nothing other than everyone going : phew, that solves that problem! Job done - can kicked down the road.

Police forces are also authoritarian by nature. That's an element of what they do , so you'll have huge resistance to change. That's not unique to the Gardai it's just the nature of police and military style structures. So whatever happens it needs to be about bringing Gardai on board and encouraging leadership and transparency within, not just imposing a solution and assuming it will work.

To do this right, you're looking at needing to setup a Garda Reform Commission that runs independently for several governments. This is too important t to just be a political football.

SEPT 23 1989

Could convictions based on the phone taps without warrants be overturned?

Green Peter

There was pandamonia over phone calls being recorded at stations two years ago, the commissioner was hounded out by Kenny and an enquiry since found no wrong doing but the media got to sell their papers at the time and the public sucked it up. Wake up,
alot of this crap is hyped up by media and politicians for their own aims. The force has been under resourced for years and that is at the root of the problem!

jelutong

99%. of the Gardai get the other 1% a bad name.

Chester Copperpot

Green Peter wrote: »

There was pandamonia over phone calls being recorded at stations two years ago, the commissioner was hounded out by Kenny and an enquiry since found no wrong doing but the media got to sell their papers at the time and the public sucked it up. Wake up,
alot of this crap is hyped up by media and politicians for their own aims. The force has been under resourced for years and that is at the root of the problem!

How is being under resourced part of the problem in terms of the type of corruption and misconduct that has emerged. Do you mean a lack of resources to discipline or prosecute members of the gardai if found in breech of regulations

steddyeddy

longshanks wrote: »

And still no one will resign or be fired.
Necks like a jockeys bollox.

I believe material scientists are actually studying O Sullivan's brass neck to see what makes it so hard.

Green Peter

Chester Copperpot wrote:

How is being under resourced part of the problem in terms of the type of corruption and misconduct that has emerged. Do you mean a lack of resources to discipline or prosecute members of the gardai if found in breech of regulations

Lack of resources for training, no continuous professional development, lack of IT, lack of equipment in general, it demorilises a force, senior management rely on politicians to promote them ( Superintendents up were appointed by cabinet), they don't rock the boat and accept the resources they are given. It's members on the ground who's good will have kept the force going. But it's normal for the keyboard warriors to make the 1% into the 99% and take out the big wide paint brush! Most people on boards wouldn't last a shift in the job!

nhunter100

Green Peter wrote:

Lack of resources for training, no continuous professional development, lack of IT, lack of equipment in general, it demorilises a force, senior management rely on politicians to promote them ( Superintendents up were appointed by cabinet), they don't rock the boat and accept the resources they are given. It's members on the ground who's good will have kept the force going. But it's normal for the keyboard warriors to make the 1% into the 99% and take out the big wide paint brush! Most people on boards wouldn't last a shift in the job!

What resources does a guard need to inform him/her something is illegal? Is a comprehension of the law not a requirement to be a guard?

steddyeddy

jelutong wrote: »

99%. of the Gardai get the other 1% a bad name.

The refusal of the 99% to do anything about the 1% gives the organisation a bad name.

pumpkin4life

Green Peter wrote: »

Lack of resources for training, no continuous professional development, lack of IT, lack of equipment in general, it demorilises a force, senior management rely on politicians to promote them ( Superintendents up were appointed by cabinet), they don't rock the boat and accept the resources they are given. It's members on the ground who's good will have kept the force going. But it's normal for the keyboard warriors to make the 1% into the 99% and take out the big wide paint brush! Most people on boards wouldn't last a shift in the job!

There's a serial killer in Dublin.

I wonder who would take that story up?

Green Peter

Members of the force are recruited from the general public and with that comes many failings, there are good and bad in every organisation, for the reasons stated above there is poor management! The vast majority are excellent people but there are disgruntled anonymous people like to make it seem otherwise, Joe public know the reality on the ground.

nhunter100

Green Peter wrote:

Members of the force are recruited from the general public and with that comes many failings, there are good and bad in every organisation, for the reasons stated above there is poor management! The vast majority are excellent people but disgruntled anonymous people like to make it seem otherwise, Joe public no the reality on the ground.

They spend 32 weeks in Templemore, you would assume the law is taught during that time. As an aside other the general public where else would you recruit from?

please helpThank YOU

Barbie! wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-gardai-tapped-the-phones-of-innocent-people-35709010.html

"Gardaí have tapped the phones of innocent members of the public, Independent.ie can reveal today.
Officers routinely bypassed strict protocols to listen in on private conversations for almost a decade, our investigation has found.

However, the State signed off on a series of secret pay-offs for gardaí and officials in a bid to keep a lid on yet another major scandal."

The gardai are lurching from one crisis to the next. I normally don't comment on these but this could affect me.

Who's money was used to pay off the whistleblowers?

It goes from bad to worse for the Gardai . In my opinion it is a like a Dictatorship ruled by dictator like Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe comes to mind. :mad: but we have Frances Fitzgerald, Noirin O Sullivan we are ruled in Ireland by a Dictatorship.

nhunter100

please helpThank YOU wrote:

It goes from bad to worse for the Gardai . In my opinion it is a like a Dictatorship ruled by dictator like Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe comes to mind. but we have Frances Fitzgerald, Noirin O Sullivan we are ruled in Ireland by a Dictatorship.

Your posts hurt baby Jesus.

RustyNut

Someone will be along any minute to say it's only a few bad apples, they never rooted out the few bad ones, went all out after the odd good one who stud up for what was right and now the whole barrel is just a putrid mess of corruption.

ED E

Templemore and Phoenix Park

Agricola

myshirt wrote: »

If you are under 35 here, it's really time to get out on the streets and demand reform. You really have been unbelievably screwed over and f#cked by these public servants. I mean seriously screwed. Please, please wake up and realise how this affects your immediate life and your future.

Plain and simple, you can't afford to pay their exorbitant pensions, pay their loans for excesses during the boom (how many guards own second homes), pay these wages that are just nuts, all while this type of sh't is going on. You have your own rent to pay, house to buy, family to build, life to live, or whatever you want to do with yourself. You certainly don't deserve this, because it is the biggest F#CK YOU that has ever been going on when it comes to youth and those under 35. F#ck you. Pay our pensions. Pay our wages. Pay our expenses. Pay our 35 days off. Pay your rent (to us and our generation). Pay the billions of debt we benefited directly from but you didn't. And shut your f#cking mouth. We are going to do whatever we want. We are going to stitch up innocent whistleblowers. Fake driving offences. Ignore rape or sexual assaults if it's someone we know. Beat you down on water charges. Let violence and drugs run riot in your community. Suicides, murders, we don't give a f#ck unless it affects someone important. The message is loud and clear youth of Ireland. Fuuuuuuck you.

If you are under 35 it's really time to don the war paint and storm the Bastille.

YEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!


Only thing is I taped Graham Norton last night and was planning on watching it soon. Can we do the storming after say........5?

please helpThank YOU

nhunter100 wrote: »

Your posts hurt baby Jesus.

Can I ask you question are you a Garda? our working for the Government? nhunter?

buzzwell

Green Peter wrote: »

Members of the force are recruited from the general public and with that comes many failings, there are good and bad in every organisation, for the reasons stated above there is poor management! The vast majority are excellent people but there are disgruntled anonymous people like to make it seem otherwise, Joe public know the reality on the ground.

The biggest failing is that they're not recruited from the general public.

Nepotism runs rife leading to a flawed gene pool.

pumpkin4life

RustyNut wrote: »

Someone will be along any minute to say it's only a few bad apples, they never rooted out the few bad ones, went all out after the odd good one who stud up for what was right and now the whole barrel is just a putrid mess of corruption.

I worked for one of the public sector departments and it was a hilariously corrupt mess.

I also grew up in a poor area wherby the guards did jack fucking shit and were fairly thuggish/incompetent themselves and to the other people I know. It's a certain crap kind of person that rises to the top; depressing to see in all honesty.

The police in this country are not the shiny happy people that RTE like to portray them as.

nhunter100

please helpThank YOU wrote:

Can I ask you question are you a Garda? our working for the Government? nhunter?

That's 3 questions. No I'm not a guard, I assume your second question is do I work for the government no I don't, not sure anyone works for the government. They work for the state is my understanding. Your last question, no idea what you are asking tbh.

please helpThank YOU

ED E wrote: »

Templemore and Phoenix Park

Just talking to my Grandmother who is 87 years old about the Gardai and she said to me there like the Organization of the Nazi party in 1933 Hitlers Youth that is my Grandmother opinion.

robbiezero

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Just talking to my Grandmother who is 87 years old about the Gardai and she said to there like the Organization of the Nazi party in 1933 Hitlers Youth that is my Grandmother opinion.

You didn't lick it off the stones so.

Discodog

myshirt wrote: »

Look, we are all annoyed. But it is those under 35ish that have felt the full force of being rightly kicked in the stones by these baby boomers and early gen'x'ers that are across the public service.

These issues affect us all from 0-100, but right at the core of it is economics, greed, corruption, and a disdain amongst a certain generation of public servants.

Maybe & it's the young crowd who are more interested in facebook than to actually protest. Even if you did then plenty would label you as left wing trouble makers.

Calhoun

Shock and horror , I believe there is more to come.

Some job of turning it around and becoming a credible police force the public has confidence in.

please helpThank YOU

robbiezero wrote: »

You didn't lick it off the stones so.

My Grandmother is alive .:mad:

nhunter100

please helpThank YOU wrote:

My Grandmother is alive .

Certainly hope so if you're talking to her and she's answering.

robbiezero

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

My Grandmother is alive .:mad:

That saying means that you take after her.

Green Peter

nhunter100 wrote:

What resources does a guard need to inform him/her something is illegal? Is a comprehension of the law not a requirement to be a guard?

Im sure you like to be adequately resourced in your own job, you'll know that it's done better as a result. Corrupt people will always emerge in any organisation with 12000 people, there are gardai in the courts on a regular basis and prosecuted by gardai in most cases, it's no different than other forces in the 1st world. In fact the reality is AGS would be seen as one of the better forces in Europe by other forces !

nhunter100

Green Peter wrote:

Im sure you like to be adequately resourced in your own job, you'll know that it's done better as a result. Corrupt people will always emerge in any organisation with 12000 people, there are gardai in the courts on a regular basis and prosecuted by gardai in most cases, it's no different than other forces in the 1st world. In fact the reality is AGS would be seen as one of the better forces in Europe by other forces !

You didn't answer my questions , is it not a prerequisite for a guard to know the law?

Discodog

steddyeddy wrote: »

The refusal of the 99% to do anything about the 1% gives the organisation a bad name.

In a nutshell. There aren't good Guards because a good one wouldn't stand for this & maybe the same rule for the catholics.

The Guards are happy to strike for money but don't give a **** about morality.

Green Peter

Jamiekelly wrote:

She doesn't seem to really think there is a problem at all when you get past her press office waffle. Hollow words thrown into the same echo chamber of commissioners past.

nhunter100 wrote:

You didn't answer my questions , is it not a prerequisite for a guard to know the law?

Law is continuously changing and updating and that is why CPD is so important and it's been non existent

Discodog

Green Peter wrote: »

Im sure you like to be adequately resourced in your own job, you'll know that it's done better as a result. Corrupt people will always emerge in any organisation with 12000 people, there are gardai in the courts on a regular basis and prosecuted by gardai in most cases, it's no different than other forces in the 1st world. In fact the reality is AGS would be seen as one of the better forces in Europe by other forces !

Really ? They are law enforcement officers & should know the consequences of systematic, ongoing law breaking. How many children would of been abused if the Guards actually did their job instead of turning a blind eye.

The obvious question is have the intelligence service, conveniently also the Guards, got so much information that no government will act ?

Green Peter

Discodog wrote:

In a nutshell. There aren't good Guards because a good one wouldn't stand for this & maybe the same rule for the catholics.

Discodog wrote:

The Guards are happy to strike for money but don't give a **** about morality.

Did they give you a ticket?

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

You didn't answer my questions , is it not a prerequisite for a guard to know the law?

They know the law, the ones that break it are subjected to the same criminal investigation as civilians.

nhunter100

Green Peter wrote:

Law is continuously changing and updating and that is why CPD is so important and it's been non existent

There are also laws that have been consistent since the foundation of the state, how does one justify ignorance of those?

nhunter100

bubblypop wrote:

They know the law, the ones that break it are subjected to the same criminal investigation as civilians.

The most recent newspaper article would seem to suggest this not the case.