It goes from bad to worse for the Gardai

Discodog

Green Peter wrote: »

Did they give you a ticket?

Nope but I have lived abroad a lot & I sure don't rate the Guards as one of the best. At least the English Police are empathetic, polite, pleasant & have something the Guards would never understand......a sense of humour.

They also went through a clear out & now have scrupulous complaints procedures

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

The most recent newspaper article would seem to suggest this not the case.

Yea? Which one?
There are Gardai arrested & investigated & charged regularly.

RustyNut

Discodog wrote: »

& have something the Guards would never understand

Accountability?

Green Peter

Discodog wrote:

Nope but I have lived abroad a lot & I sure don't rate the Guards as one of the best. At least the English Police are empathetic, polite, pleasant & have something the Guards would never understand......a sense of humour.

Tell that to the Birmingham 6

Discodog

RustyNut wrote: »

Accountability?

My mistake :pac:

Discodog

Green Peter wrote: »

Tell that to the Birmingham 6

That's before the clear out when they were just like the Guards

Green Peter

Discodog wrote:

That's before the clear out when they were just like the Guards

You even sound like you believe it !!!!

please helpThank YOU

Green Peter wrote: »

Tell that to the Birmingham 6

The Guildford four England . In Ireland we have the case where Gardai and DPP did not disclose evidence in the case of Nora Wall the former irish nun. who was wrongfully convicted of rape and Jailed for life in 1999 Gardai knew see was innocent Women but left her be Jailed for life in the Wrong .

RustyNut

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

The Guildford four England . In Ireland we have the case where Gardai and DPP did not disclose evidence in the case of Nora Wall the former irish nun. who was wrongfully convicted of rape and Jailed for life in 1999 Gardai knew see was innocent Women but left her be Jailed for life in the Wrong .

Not to mention the Sallins train robbery.

Little CuChulainn

nhunter100 wrote: »

You didn't answer my questions , is it not a prerequisite for a guard to know the law?

The law is a fairly large body of work that practitioners spend years studying before going before a judge. Gardaí are expected to investigate and prosecute cases alone after about 9 months of training. Even if you narrowed it down to criminal law, constitutional law, data protection and official secrets legislation it is still a lot of material and is being thought by other Gardaí for the most part. And it has to go hand in hand with policy and procedure training too. Not to mention the rest of the stuff they try to cram into the short time in the college.

So when you talk about the law, what specific area of law are you referring to?

cursai

Hey, it could be worse. We could be in Mexico. Also I'd take whatever the independent write with a HUGE grain of salt.

Kivaro

Green Peter wrote: »

Lack of resources for training, no continuous professional development, lack of IT, lack of equipment in general, .....

This is the same spiel that the public heard from the spokespersons during the recent Garda conferences. Are these issues the cause of the corrupt and illegal activities by members of the force? What I didn't hear from these same spokespersons was an admission of culpability. Own up to it and take responsibility for Garda illegal activities; don't pass the buck.

I also believe that there would be some empathy for the lack of resources and training if the general public's interactions with the Garda in Ireland were overall positive in nature. I'm talking about the lack of professional courtesy by Gardai that we see in other jurisdictions. I'm talking about a police force who are proactive in their duties, and not waiting for the call to come in that somebody was brutally assaulted after the pubs closed on a Saturday night. I'm talking about Gardai treating the members of the public with respect, which should be the core tenet of the force.

The obvious disclaimer needs to state that there are Gardai in Ireland who take their job seriously and act in a professional manner and I have pity on those who have to deal with the unsavory aspect of our society. Unfortunately due to the systemic abuses and illegal activities that we seem to be reading about on a daily basis, the only solution for policing in Ireland is a new police force (with outside help).

Widdershins

I have found that the level of professionalism varies greatly from one member of the gardai to another, which (along with the succession of scandals) suggests to me that there isn't a standard there. The idea of a whole new police force is a really interesting one. Our other emergency services are, in my opinion, exemplary.

please helpThank YOU

RustyNut wrote: »

Not to mention the Sallins train robbery.

Sorry them too1976 Sallins Train Robbery Jailed for 9 to 12 years for a crime the did not commit. by the Gardai to extract confession by beaten them four innocent men and put them four innocent men under duress to get a conviction and for the Gardai to get Stripes.

RustyNut

Green Peter wrote: »

The force has been under resourced for years and that is at the root of the problem!

So would it be ok for the rest of society to use that excuse for breaking the law and expect to get away it?
I didn't tax my car because I'm "under resourced". I only sell drugs because I'm "under resourced" etc.

Cutie 3.14

The army do it too. These are just people at the end of the day and if you had that power wouldn't you be tempted to have a snoop at your neighbours phone calls? Even if it were just out of pure nosieness?

Kivaro

Widdershins wrote: »

I have found that the level of professionalism varies greatly from one member of the gardai to another, which (along with the succession of scandals) suggests to me that there isn't a standard there.

Thanks Widdershins; that is what I was getting at.
It needs to be consistent. At the moment, members of the public don't know what they are getting upon encountering a member of the Gardai e.g. professional versus confrontational. If the public believed that courtesy and professionalism was the standard interaction for non-crime related activities then the interaction would be a more positive experience (for both).

Muahahaha

jelutong wrote: »

99%. of the Gardai get the other 1% a bad name.

Not buying it. 1 million fake breath tests tells us otherwise. Works out at approx. 65 fake tests per Garda employed. As the Commissioner herself said it means that the Gardai are incompetent or corrupt.

Discodog

The number one item of Garda training should be that, if you see anything that you believe could be corrupt, then report it. If not you will be considered guilty. Reporting corruption is a duty & will be seen as a positive concerning future salary, promotion etc.

Discodog

Green Peter wrote: »

You even sound like you believe it !!!!

I am old enough & was living in England. I remember bent coppers & bent senior officers. Any complaint against a UK officer is now taken very seriously. The UK Police hate & fear the anti corruption units for very good reason

Discodog

Kivaro wrote: »

Thanks Widdershins; that is what I was getting at.
It needs to be consistent. At the moment, members of the public don't know what they are getting upon encountering a member of the Gardai e.g. professional versus confrontational. If the public believed that courtesy and professionalism was the standard interaction for non-crime related activities then the interaction would be a more positive experience (for both).

The inconsistency is especially serious as individual Garda discretion is a key part of policing

please helpThank YOU

jelutong wrote: »

99%. of the Gardai get the other 1% a bad name.

1 per cent of 12000 Gardai = 120 bad Gardai did 120 bad Gardai do the 1 million fake breath test ? What about the 15000 drivers wrongly convicted?.

steddyeddy

There is a culture of unprofessionalism, lack of ethics and lack of respect for the public in the guards. This is evident by well the evidence over the last few years. Not all guards are guilty of this but let's be fair, the orginisation is extremely bad at getting rid of those that are.

I've a theory as too why, but it's simplistic and I'm doubtlessly leaving out some variables. I think one of the root causes is the fact that there is a big divide between the guards and the public which begins at Templemore. There seems to be culture encouraged where the guards distance themselves from the ordinary public. A them VS us situation in any environment leads to mistrust on both sides.

I live in the UK for the moment and sometimes in the US. There's certainly a difference between the cops in the UK and cops in Ireland.

I was cycling through a pedestrian path in England (unknown to me) and I was stopped by a cop. He was very polite and told me not to do that again. I apologised and went on my way.

I was never in trouble with the guards in Ireland but I have one bad experience with what I'd describe as a thug in uniform. I decided to take a trip out to Bray with a friend to climb Bray head. We were walking along and my friend says hello to a male and female guard. The man, doubtlessly showing off to the girl says "don't be cheeky". I say he was only saying hello and the chimp in uniform says "don't be cheeky or I'll arrest you and you'll be in a cell for the night". We walked off and I made a complaint to the ombudsman. I got a receipt back a week or two later but heard no more.

There needs to be a complete overhaul in attitude of the guards because my only experience of them is reading about the scandals and running into one who threatened to incarcerate me for no reason. I only remembered that since I moved out of the country and all this stuff came up. Friends of mine from all walks of life and background have the same view. There are good ones but the organisation doesn't foster respect for the public.

steddyeddy

Discodog wrote: »

I am old enough & was living in England. I remember bent coppers & bent senior officers. Any complaint against a UK officer is now taken very seriously. The UK Police hate & fear the anti corruption units for very good reason

See my post above! The met in the 70s had a terrible reputation. They completely overhauled the force and now they're a professional force by an large. How often do you read about police corruption in the UK compared to Ireland, a country several orders of magnitude smaller but with far more corruption.

nhunter100

bubblypop wrote:

Yea? Which one? There are Gardai arrested & investigated & charged regularly.

How many was there today?

nhunter100

Green Peter wrote:

Tell that to the Birmingham 6

The poster also mentioned a clear out. The B6 was the 70's. Does the name McBearty ( hope I spelt it right) ring any bells?

RustyNut

Discodog wrote: »

The number one item of Garda training should be that, if you see anything that you believe could be corrupt, then report it. If not you will be considered guilty. Reporting corruption is a duty & will be seen as a positive concerning future salary, promotion etc.

By all accounts it would appear that the opposite in fact the case. If you report corruption the entire force is turned against you.

lawred2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Not buying it. 1 million fake breath tests tells us otherwise. Works out at approx. 65 fake tests per Garda employed. As the Commissioner herself said it means that the Gardai are incompetent or corrupt.

And how many of those employed actually ever leave a station?

shar01

Reading Steddyeddy's post reminded me... I was leaving a match in Croker (a soccer match while Lansdowne was being redeveloped) and a young lad went up to a guard to ask directions back to the city centre.

Can't remember her exact words to him but it was along the lines that she wasn't there to give directions.

Ken.

shar01 wrote: »

Reading Steddyeddy's post reminded me... I was leaving a match in Croker (a soccer match while Lansdowne was being redeveloped) and a young lad went up to a guard to ask directions back to the city centre.

Can't remember her exact words to him but it was along the lines that she wasn't there to give directions.

Contrast that with London where we were lost looking for a place and 2 policemen took out their phones, looked up the postcode and took my phone opened google maps and punched it in for us. It was only about a 5 minute walk. They never made us feel stupid for being lost. I felt like giving them a tip.

RustyNut

nhunter100 wrote: »

The poster also mentioned a clear out. The B6 was the 70's. Does the name McBearty ( hope I spelt it right) ring any bells?

Would this be what you are referring to.

?

11m in payouts for 55 victims of Donegal garda corruption

Dr Crayfish

The Met are a different level of professionalism to our clowns from my experience

nhunter100

RustyNut wrote:

?

Yep thats it.

greenoverred

With all the cyber security stuff knocking around I ain't gonna chance any link from the Indo.

Could someone please give me a brief outline of exactly what's in this article

steddyeddy

Barbie! wrote: »

Contrast that with London where we were lost looking for a place and 2 policemen took out their phones, looked up the postcode and took my phone opened google maps and punched it in for us. It was only about a 5 minute walk. They never made us feel stupid for being lost. I felt like giving them a tip.

I had the same experience at this year's Notting Hill carnival. Very very helpful.

RustyNut

greenoverred wrote: »

With all the cyber security stuff knocking around I ain't gonna chance any link from the Indo.

Could someone please give me a brief outline of exactly what's in this article

Guards abusing their authority and citizens rights.

nhunter100

greenoverred wrote:

Could someone please give me a brief outline of exactly what's in this article

Just read the first post, pretty much covers it.

Zebra3

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Even speaking of much older generations, I know couples in their 80s who lost everything as they had money in AIB and Anglo shares and went from what should have been a comfortable retirement to being on just the state pension.

No sympathy for anyone who invested in those private companies and lost out.

Their profits were gained through the exploitation of ordinary people trying to put a roof over their heads.

My name is URL

tomwaterford wrote: »

They are gone as bad as the Catholic Church of the 90s lurching from crisis to crisis

That's a bit of a stretch. The reason the church got away with stuff for so long is because the average person didn't ask questions.

At least now the average person is doing so. Even though the government and gardai would prefer they didn't

368100

Cutie 3.14 wrote: »

The army do it too. These are just people at the end of the day and if you had that power wouldn't you be tempted to have a snoop at your neighbours phone calls? Even if it were just out of pure nosieness?

No. I work in a bank that most of my family and friends bank with. I could look up their accounts in a few seconds if I wanted to but I've never done it. It's called integrity.

Widdershins

368100 wrote: »

No. I work in a bank that most of my family and friends bank with. I could look up their accounts in a few seconds if I wanted to but I've never done it. It's called integrity.

Someone once told me that, years ago when they were younger, there was a rule that said bank staff couldn't work in their own local area. Was that ever the case?

greenoverred

nhunter100 wrote: »

Just read the first post, pretty much covers it.

But when did it happen and what proof has Denis o Brien offered up to prove it. Don't mean to question a good auld witch hunt but the gsoc bugging enquiry and the garda bugging calls in station accusations have made me very sceptical

368100

Widdershins wrote: »

Someone once told me that, years ago when they were younger, there was a rule that said bank staff couldn't work in their own local area. Was that ever the case?

It was years ago....now I'm talking in the 70's or early 80s .you'd be posted to a town away from where you'd live and there would be a couple of houses in the town that the bank had where the staff lived. The manager normally lived upstairs over the branch.

Pointless these days as branch staff have access to any account in the country (apart from maybe private banking clients) and banks are moving to promoting work/life balance so if there's a post going close to where you live theres nothing like that to stop you moving to work there.

Northerngal

Ok it's been established AGS has had SERIOUS failings, to put it mildly

Can AGS as an organisation,name,trusted police force be saved?

nhunter100

greenoverred wrote:

But when did it happen and what proof has Denis o Brien offered up to prove it. Don't mean to question a good auld witch hunt but the gsoc bugging enquiry and the garda bugging calls in station accusations have made me very sceptical

Didn't know DOB was a journalist, when did that happen? Witch hunt? If the Indo upsets you I suggest you try other media outlets. RTE also covered it. 90's through to the early 00's

greenoverred

nhunter100 wrote: »

Didn't know DOB was a journalist, when did that happen? Witch hunt? If the Indo upsets you I suggest you try other media outlets. RTE also covered it. 90's through to the early 00's

Are you seriouus. This happened over 15 years ago. Strange how that's hasn't been mentioned once in this thread. Is it mentioned in the article. Nah **** it Stick it on Noreens head. Now thats more newsworthy. But it's not a witch hunt

koumi

Northerngal wrote: »

Ok it's been established AGS has had SERIOUS failings, to put it mildly

Can AGS as an organisation,name,trusted police force be saved?

No, but you should be grateful for that.

nhunter100

greenoverred wrote:

Are you seriouus. This happened over 15 years ago. Strange how that's hasn't been mentioned once in this thread. Is it mentioned in the article. Nah **** it Stick it on Noreens head. Now thats more newsworthy. But it's not a witch hunt

Yet it has only come to light because a guard is pursuing a case through the courts. Are you suggesting no legacy issues should be dealt with even if those with questions to answer are still serving. I could understand your concern for NO'S if she only joined AGS in 2015.

ToddyDoody

So they're making it up as they go along. What are we going to do, call the guards?

Esel

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

1 per cent of 12000 Gardai = 120 bad Gardai did 120 bad Gardai do the 1 million fake breath test ? What about the 15000 drivers wrongly convicted?.

Arithmetic? You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope...