Andre Ward v Sergey Kovalev 2 - 17/06

Schwanz

Sky Sports Live

Ward beaten just on my card in the first.

Very Very close, looking forward to this.

walshb

Schwanz wrote: »

Sky Sports Live

Ward beaten just on my card in the first.

Very Very close, looking forward to this.

Ward is the one that should be out to prove a point. No way he deserved that first fight, but with all the cards stacked in his favour it was not at all surprising. I hope he comes out and actually fights this time.

hbhook

As we've probably all heard various experts say by now, Ward will have more to give in the rematch. That is, he'll make more adjustments so I think he'll win. Not even Andre thought he won the first one! If his facial expression at the announcement said anything!

walshb

hbhook wrote: »

As we've probably all heard various experts say by now, Ward will have more to give in the rematch. That is, he'll make more adjustments so I think he'll win. Not even Andre thought he won the first one! If his facial expression at the announcement said anything!

What adjustments do you think he makes? His offence was practically shut down by Kovalev. Ward engaging more and actually trying to win could see him do well and win, but could he leave himself more open to getting hurt, and maybe this time, badly?

The adjustments he needs to make to win is on offence. He needs more of it, and a lot more substance than last time. Here is where he is in the danger zone. Maybe he should try to close distance more and make it a rough and tumble in close affair?

hbhook

Yeah sorry, I suppose that's a bit of a catch-all term! They should both go to the body more often (Kovalev) and early (Ward). I can't quite remember now but I think the knockdown might have been the difference for me in the first match. I just get the feeling Ward will be more keyed in this time after the experience of the first.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Ward is the one that should be out to prove a point. No way he deserved that first fight, but with all the cards stacked in his favour it was not at all surprising. I hope he comes out and actually fights this time.

Huh????

Really not sure what you're talking about there, the last fight was a very good fight. It's probably the only Ward fight I've watched that was entertaining.

And for what it's worth, I had Ward winning in a very close fight. So had a lot of others, but unfortunately the whole 'my guy lost a close fight therefore I'll scream "ROBBERY" from the rooftops' movement that has gained so much momentum on the internet over the last decade has gone into overdrive on this one. It was very close either way.

walshb

He fought "scared." End of. And a whole lot more people felt Sergey won.

Ward is lauded as p4p 1...his fight against Sergey was a very poor offensive display.

He is better than what he showed in that fight. He stunk it out on the back foot and did not offensively win that fight.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

He fought "scared." End of. And a whole lot more people felt Sergey won.

Ward is lauded as p4p 1...his fight against Sergey was a very poor offensive display.

He is better than what he showed in that fight. He stunk it out on the back foot and did not offensively win that fight.

Over the years you have consistently made the valid point that you can have wide scorecards in a closely fought fight. In other words, the fella you like nicks most rounds and ends up winning by a big margin even though it was a hard fought contest.

In Ward / Kovalev other than the early rounds, which Kovalev won, all the rest were very close. It wasn't easy to score and all three judges had Ward winning by just one point. It could have gone to Kovalev too, but the key point is - it was very close!! And that's how it was scored.

You don't like Ward's style. Nor do I. But that has nothing to do with scoring a fight. I'm a long time watching and scoring fights and I honestly don't get the whole furore over that decision.

It was also a damn good fight, considering Andre Ward was in it.

walshb

I think you are in the minority as regards it being a damn good fight.

It wasn't. Too much clinching for me. Disjointed. Messy.

I never said the fight wasn't close. I just thought it not fair that the close rds were more given to the back foot more negative fighter.

And theee U.S. judges just adds to the controversy..

Burial.

Undoubtedly a good fight. Crazy to think otherwise. Pretty much every analyst hailed it as one of the fights of the year.

walshb

As much as the fight for me wasn't great I am very much looking forward to the rematch.

Folks focusing on what Ward does different? I think it is Sergey who had more options to reverse the decision. More effective aggression and more gusto he should employ. Can Ward up his offence to land meaningful shots consistently?

I think it is Sergey who holds more cards...particularly on offence. Ward's offence I think won't hurt or worry Sergey.. it certainly didn't in fight 1. But Sergey's offence did trouble and worry Ward, resulting in Ward being very cautious and negative on his offence, looking to spoil and steal his way through. Sergey was looking to punch and win his way through.

walshb

Not sure how serious I can take this fight as regards being fair to both sides seeing as again three U.S. judges will be scoring it. It's just not the right thing to have. Oh, and again for good measure a U.S. referee...

http://www.boxingscene.com/ward-kovalev-rematch-nsac-assigned-three-american-judges--116975

Surely this is having some impact on Ward being the slight favorite? Because based off the first (what happened in the ring) fight I think the favorite should be Kovalev. He was more the boss, more the aggressor and more the general. Ward was simply trying to stay there and trying to keep up.

Had Kovalev gotten the decision there would be no talk of controversy.

Burial.

Obviously not ideal and the conspiracy nuts will lap it up but Kovalev said he's going to knock him out and end his career so shouldn't be a problem. If anything it's people who dislike Ward making excuses already if Kovalev loses again. The crystal ball tells me I'll be quoting this in a month's time.

On the fight, interestingly it's come out John David Jackson was close to jumping ship and becoming part of Ward's team. Verified by Jackson in an interview too. Never rated him as a trainer tbh, and I can't see how Kovalev does anything different in the rematch if he's the guy over him. Even in the preview show where Jackson seemed salty that Kovalev had another guy speaking to him between rounds. Jackson seems pissed...how're you going to prepare for the biggest fight of your career if your head coach is salty over members of your team and said of offered more money he'd jump ship to your arch rival.

walshb

Burial. wrote: »

Obviously not ideal and the conspiracy nuts will lap it up but Kovalev said he's going to knock him out and end his career so shouldn't be a problem. If anything it's people who dislike Ward making excuses already if Kovalev loses again. The crystal ball tells me I'll be quoting this in a month's time.
.

Nothing to do with excuses, and certainly no conspiracy. It is what it is. It's to do with fair play. I for one would be the exact same if Ward was in Kovalev's country and Kovalev had three of his nation's judges and a referee from his nation.

If Kovalev does nothing really different in the rematch then Ward definitely should. It is Ward who is really on trial here. What has he got? Can he go out and actually earn a win, as opposed to being competitive and hoping that his three countrymen help him out again.

For big fights like these to rule out any possible impropriety there should be either mixed judges or neutral judges/referees.

hbhook

Could they not have just got three judges of different nationalities to safe everyone some **** talk? JDJ could have made a better attempt at explaining himself. Anyways, here's another fine video from Lee Wylie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZRXom8w65A

clubwelly

I dunno if anyone has seen the HBO preview of this fight but it's very pro Ward

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Nothing to do with excuses, and certainly no conspiracy. It is what it is. It's to do with fair play. I for one would be the exact same if Ward was in Kovalev's country and Kovalev had three of his nation's judges and a referee from his nation.

If Kovalev does nothing really different in the rematch then Ward definitely should. It is Ward who is really on trial here. What has he got? Can he go out and actually earn a win, as opposed to being competitive and hoping that his three countrymen help him out again.

For big fights like these to rule out any possible impropriety there should be either mixed judges or neutral judges/referees.

The longer the first fight went on, the less effective Kovalev was. He landed very few punches in the last few rounds and looked frustrated. There is no doubt about that. In other words Ward began to figure him out in the second half.

So, from the point of view of doing anything different, the way Ward finished is exactly how he should continue. So it's down to Kovalev to be different or else he's heading for a wider points defeat this time.

walshb

It's pure BS that Ward somehow finished stronger and closed the show.

Ward figured out how to not lose as clearly, that's about it. He did not capitalise on offence and beat Kovalev.

Like so many others, just over crediting Ward for simply being competitive and hanging in.

For me Kovalev won 2/3 championship rds, 10 and 12. Can't recall rd 11..

Lederman said it best when he said that throughout the fight it was Ward who was the one getting hurt more in the exchanges.

I still maintain that this fight is for Ward to redeem himself. He got the verdict, but he got next to no real credit.

Burial.

Lederman also said rounds should be scored based on who hurt who most, which is one of the most idiotic and flawed statements I have ever heard about Boxing.

He said without any doubt in his mind it was a clear victory for Kovalev which is strike two in the dumb dumb test. It was a close fight, that could have gone either way. Robbery it was not, nor could ever be. It was then by default no way a clear victory for either unless you're biased or simply are stupid. Strike three in the dumb dumb test for Mr Okay Jim was that after all that Harold says (paraphrasing) Kovalev has to give us more than he did in the first fight, do a lot more in the second fight.

He goes from saying Kovalev won clearly without any doubt and that it was a cooked decision to saying he has to do more in the second fight which would allude to that the first fight was close and inconclusive. Harold is another guy who thinks power punching is the only way a fight can be won. No better man than Andre Ward to bust that myth.

walshb

Kovalev will have to clearly win to get the verdict. Ward just needs to keep up.

hbhook

that's a cool lil app. I've just looked at it. For me, it just seems like a stretch that Kov won only one round in the second half of the fight. Average n' all. Then again..I'm not a very good judge at any time let alone at 5am.

Morrison J

Ward won every round after round 6 apart from round 10.

I've never seen so many people who's opinions I respect get blinded by this fight. All the talk was Kovalev got robbed. I've never seen a fighter who fought half a fight get robbed before.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Ward won every round after round 6 apart from round 10.

I've never seen so many people who's opinions I respect get blinded by this fight. All the talk was Kovalev got robbed. I've never seen a fighter who fought half a fight get robbed before.

What do you mean he fought half a fight?

This is more the BS doing the rds. This ridiculous notion that Ward figured him out and beat him...this was not Mayweather/Judah. Not fooking close. Ward still looked the loser from rd 6 onwards. Kovalev wasn't as successful in the second half, but Ward still looked uncertain, and fought negatively. He never took control.

Jesus, there were some comments here and from commentary that were so desperate to praise Ward that his "showboating" was thrown out there as his genius at taking over. Pure bull. His showboating was just another sign of his frustration at not being able to impose any decent offence on Kovalev.

The most credit Ward gets from me has nothing to do with his performance in fight 1. It's his agreeing to a rematch that impressed me. It tells me that he wants to really show that he is better, and put right a wrong. That's a real champion.

selectamatic

Morrison J wrote: »

Ward won every round after round 6 apart from round 10.

I've never seen so many people who's opinions I respect get blinded by this fight. All the talk was Kovalev got robbed. I've never seen a fighter who fought half a fight get robbed before.

As I recall no judge gave kovalev the 10th though. So for me that's an issue straight off the bat. I had Sergey winning by one and I've watched it twice and came to the same conclusion.

I'm however very much against some high profile skillful yet "defensive" fighters seemingly being awarded rounds for staying out of range yet offering little offensively so perhaps that coloured my view of things.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

What do you mean he fought half a fight?

This is more the BS doing the rds. This ridiculous notion that Ward figured him out and beat him...this was not Mayweather/Judah. Not fooking close. Ward still looked the loser from rd 6 onwards. Kovalev wasn't as successful in the second half, but Ward still looked uncertain, and fought negatively. He never took control.

Jesus, there were some comments here and from commentary that were so desperate to praise Ward that his "showboating" was thrown out there as his genius at taking over. Pure bull. His showboating was just another sign of his frustration at not being able to impose any decent offence on Kovalev.

The most credit Ward gets from me has nothing to do with his performance in fight 1. It's his agreeing to a rematch that impressed me. It tells me that he wants to really show that he is better, and put right a wrong. That's a real champion.

The only BS in this argument is stating that Kovalev was robbed! He wasn't.

It was a very close fight that could have gone either way.

That's all there is to it.

megadodge

Burial. wrote: »

Lederman also said rounds should be scored based on who hurt who most, which is one of the most idiotic and flawed statements I have ever heard about Boxing.

He said without any doubt in his mind it was a clear victory for Kovalev which is strike two in the dumb dumb test. It was a close fight, that could have gone either way. Robbery it was not, nor could ever be. It was then by default no way a clear victory for either unless you're biased or simply are stupid. Strike three in the dumb dumb test for Mr Okay Jim was that after all that Harold says (paraphrasing) Kovalev has to give us more than he did in the first fight, do a lot more in the second fight.

He goes from saying Kovalev won clearly without any doubt and that it was a cooked decision to saying he has to do more in the second fight which would allude to that the first fight was close and inconclusive. Harold is another guy who thinks power punching is the only way a fight can be won. No better man than Andre Ward to bust that myth.

Excellent post.

Harold has an ally in Walshb. Power. Power. Power.

walshb

Lederman never mentioned power, nor did I. Seems someone else is the one fixated by it.

walshb

On a separate note, power shots, or harder shots, do (and should do) score higher than glancing swipes and jabs.

12gauge dave

What channel will this be on guys?

12gauge dave

pac_man wrote: »

Sky Sports

Thank god for once i dont have to put the hand in pocket.

Morrison J

24/7

https://youtu.be/gTdjsVPVg4g

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

24/7

https://youtu.be/gTdjsVPVg4g

Really can't wait for this fight. Going on the way they have been conducting themselves it seems that Kovalev really wants to decimate Ward.

I am hoping this means even more aggression and offence from him, which will really put it up to Ward and show us IF Ward can handle the heat, and respond and fan the flames. I expect/hope a better fight this time with more combat and more offence, particularly from Ward. Ward may sink or swim here.

It could be a Kovalev blowout, a Ward masterclass in countering, or another repeat of fight 1.

Kovalev sitting back in any way expecting a decision should it be competitive would be the worst thing he could do. I think he has to know this. Kovalev needs top go out and really stamp his presence all over Ward.

Burial.

For Kovalev's sake, I hope he calms down and doesn't just try and go and throw the kitchen sink. He's clearly emotional over the first fight, and the trainer spat issues as well as Ward being politely irritating and egging him on isn't helping. He must believe he can win over 12 if he puts in the work and not just think he has to stop Ward. You'd assume he's professional enough to not let it take over but he's only human. Nevertheless he's far too skilled to just go like that. If Ward starts strong, builds a clear lead then Kovalev has no option other than go for broke, which will be absolutely fascinating from both sides.

Really is a fascinating fight. A repeat of fight one of sorts (close decision), a classic Andre Ward UD12 shutout or dominant Kovalev performance either brutal beatdown over 12 or stoppage are all pretty equal possibilities.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Kovalev sitting back in any way expecting a decision should it be competitive would be the worst thing he could do. I think he has to know this. Kovalev needs top go out and really stamp his presence all over Ward.

I think Kovalev wins this off the jab and doubling up on that jab. He needs the fight to be kept at medium/long range. If he comes in aggressive it gives Ward opportunities to get inside which is where Ward is at his best. I have a bad feeling Kovalev might see blood in there early and try jump on Ward which I think plays into Wards hands. Kovalev needs to be calm and fight to a gameplan behind that jab for me. It's his best asset by a mile.

I do think Ward will find a way inside just like he did in the first fight though and slow down Kovalev with body work. Kovalev is very soft to the body imo and I think that's a massive reason Ward had joy late in the first fight. That early body work by Ward is key.

Close but clear Ward decision I think I'm going with.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

I think Kovalev wins this off the jab and doubling up on that jab. He needs the fight to be kept at medium/long range. If he comes in aggressive it gives Ward opportunities to get inside which is where Ward is at his best. I have a bad feeling Kovalev might see blood in there early and try jump on Ward which I think plays into Wards hands. Kovalev needs to be calm and fight to a gameplan behind that jab for me. It's his best asset by a mile.

I do think Ward will find a way inside just like he did in the first fight though and slow down Kovalev with body work. Kovalev is very soft to the body imo and I think that's a massive reason Ward had joy late in the first fight. That early body work by Ward is key.

Close but clear Ward decision I think I'm going with.

Agreed. Mid range is his zone. I still think he needs to have real spite and controlled aggression. Busier than fight 1. Like I said, anyway competitive and it's unlikely he gets the nod due to the farcical officials arrangement.

He actually needs to go out with the mindset that he needs to dominate and shut out Ward, and to almost believe that only a KO/TKO will earn him the win. If this is in his mindset he can then plan and execute his offence, step it up a notch or two.

Straight hard and clean shots and shooting that left hook to Ward's body a fair bit. Easier said than done against a fairly defensively minded opponent who will be trying to spoil.

ThunderCat

I don't think Kovalev will be able to keep his emotions in check in order to execute any sort of gameplan that doesn't play into Wards hands. I think he will be rash and from a very early stage in the fight. His ego is bruised as he lost (officially, leaving debate aside) and wasn't able to steamroll Ward like he does to everyone else. He will start the fight trying to assert his dominance and to show he is more of a man than Ward and it will be his undoing. Ward is far far smarter. I find Kovalev one dimensional, albeit he is supremely effective at what he does. He reminds me a bit of Amir Khan with regards to only fighting one way. Khan might start off with a gameplan but that soon starts going out the window and he wants to stand and trade. Kovalev is the exact same, but obviously that's where the similarities end. Whereas fight one was a bit of an unknown for Ward, this time I'm confident he will know exactly what Kovalev will do and he will know it before the first bell is even rang.

walshb

But you haven't addressed what Ward needs to do? Ward needs to win this, not just keep up and be competitive. Can Ward mount a decent offence with substance, because his last showing was not that for me.

The big issue being that the cards are firmly stacked in Ward's favor as regards the officiating here. The playing field is not at all level. Kovalev having to really earn a win and Ward having to just be somewhat competitive.

In a nutshell Ward is not Sergey's most difficult obstacle.

The only hope Sergey has is to be more aggressive and more spiteful. Boxing with Ward will see a close fight that he cannot really win on the cards. That is why we could be in for a great fight, and possibly two great performances. The officiating may well work to the fans favour.

Burial.

Getting excited for this now. Have had some free time and I've been watching past fights of both. We're in for another great fight lads.

hbhook

Has anyone seen 24/7 yet without downloading it? Usually I'd say **** it but...

CatFromHue

it's on youtube, it's probably linked in this thread already

hbhook

yeah but I keep getting the ''not available in your country'' crap.

ThunderCat

hbhook wrote: »

yeah but I keep getting the ''not available in your country'' crap.

try dailymotion. it might be on there.

walshb

hbhook wrote: »

Has anyone seen 24/7 yet without downloading it? Usually I'd say **** it but...

I recorded it on Sky Sports. Quite enjoyed it..

Ward a real family oriented man. Great to see. He's a classy guy..

hbhook

I thought Ward's team came across as smug. Except for Andre and Hunter. Didn't quite see the end when Duva and Hunter were having a back n' forth. The weigh-in should be good. The HBO guy said the first 5 min of 24/7 was compelling...arrgh!

Burial.

Adonis the pimp said he wants the winner next year, which adds a little more incentive for these two. Adonis must expect a Ward victory as he was never keen on a Kovalev fight.

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

So if this fight is anyway close( just like the first fight) and Ward gets the nod are you just going to blame the judging?

No..if I feel it's close I'll say so..

Anyway, close or not the officiating is a sham. It is not a level playing field.

Hard to take this seriously when you look at the set up..

Like I said, Sergey's biggest obstacle is not Ward, it's the officials.

Burial.

Not a shot at anyone here but I've really started to lose respect for a tonne of Boxing fans in recent times. I honestly think the IQ of most boxing fans is clinically retarded. That goes for Kovalev, Duva et. al as well. Ward's arrogant and cocky for making comments that he's not fussed and he sticks to his game plan yet Kovalev is out right racist and gets a pass. Ward fights within the rules set out and agreed upon and he's called a cheater. He fights a style that referees permit and he's said to have bought the ref. He gets the nod in a close decision and he's said to have bought the judges.

Ward cannot control the referee, the judges or the rule makers. Blame those and not Ward. He's doing everything within the rules and he's not in any way influential enough to drive officials or judges to corruption. Where he at Floyd status then you might have a sniff of credibility making that claim. I love that guys like Golovkin and Kovalev have brought more viewers to Boxing, it's great but Jesus they do attract the bottom of the barrel in terms of intelligence. Big George's jazz analogy rings as clear as ever.

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

Vegas appoint their own officials.This has been going on for years. Kovalevs team had the opportunity to object to the officials. Plenty examples of "Away" fighters getting a decision in Vegas against an american.

I am aware of all that. Doesn't change the fact that it's not a level playing field.

And yes, Kovalev has handicapped himself. I said this for fight 1 as well.

walshb

I haven't heard anyone claim that Ward controlled the referee or bought the judges. He didn't need to. 4 officials all U.S nationals. No need for a U.S. boxer to buy or control. It is what it is..

Also never heard anyone blaming Ward. In my view he is faultless.

Burial.

Kovalev and co. just walked straight out of the press conference an hour ago. Kovalev looked a little gittery and nervous up stage, dare I say it a bit of a wreck. He needs to calm down and stay focused or its going to be a long night.

Morrison J

Kovalev has been full of ****e throughout the build up to this fight imo. I'm a fan of him but his constant excuse making is grating. Makes about 10 separate excuses for his performance in the first fight in the 24/7 yet still claims he won clear and it was the biggest robbery ever.