Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

JPCN1

Hooker the big conundrum imo. Best is 35 now and whilst still playing well I cannot see that remains the case when he's pushing 37 in Japan.

We have a great chance of a 6 nations but think after that it's time to bring on Scannel or whoever deemed next off the rank.

Stephen Moore at the same age looked as willing as ever on Saturday but the legs gone a bit and they're the same age.

aloooof

JPCN1 wrote: »

Hooker the big conundrum imo. Best is 35 now and whilst still playing well I cannot see that remains the case when he's pushing 37 in Japan.

We have a great chance of a 6 nations but think after that it's time to bring on Scannel or whoever deemed next off the rank.

Stephen Moore at the same age looked as willing as ever on Saturday but the legs gone a bit and they're the same age.

The timing of Scannell's injury was a real shame, with Cronin not being selected for the squad I think he's the front runner as back-up hooker if everyone's fit.

CIARAN_BOYLE

aloooof wrote: »

The timing of Scannell's injury was a real shame, with Cronin not being selected for the squad I think he's the front runner as back-up hooker if everyone's fit.

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

Don Kiddick

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

Were there not a few suggestions in here that perhaps he was looking at going abroad at the seasonend ?

stephen_n

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I wonder if Cronin is being written off or if the decision was given to leave him out, give him a rest and have an in depth look at the backups.

After all he is 31, 33 in Japan and unusually for a hooker relies on his speed to stand out.

I would have to wonder if his deficiencies at scrum time are catching up with him. The change to the law making striking mandatory may make him less attractive. Of all the candidates for hooker, he is definitely the weakest scrummager.

salmocab

Don Kiddick wrote: »

Were there not a few suggestions in here that perhaps he was looking at going abroad at the seasonend ?

I think that was more that it seemed odd that he was left out with no real explanation, it seems to me odd that Cronin would suddenly be behind maybe 4/5 guys when a year or so ago he was second choice. His form hasnt fallen off a cliff although it does seem that he may have lost his place at Leinster. He certainly brings a lot more off the bench than the others so Id suspect that there is a reason for him being left out other than form, it could be professional like him planning a move abroad or possibly something in his personal life thats none of our business.

prawnsambo

salmocab wrote: »

I think that was more that it seemed odd that he was left out with no real explanation, it seems to me odd that Cronin would suddenly be behind maybe 4/5 guys when a year or so ago he was second choice. His form hasnt fallen off a cliff although it does seem that he may have lost his place at Leinster. He certainly brings a lot more off the bench than the others so Id suspect that there is a reason for him being left out other than form, it could be professional like him planning a move abroad or possibly something in his personal life thats none of our business.

I think it's more likely Ciaran_Boyle's suggestion. Since Best is captain, that just left three sub spots and one starter to try other options. Cronin doesn't need trying out and his presence would be pointless.

Burkie1203

IT say POM is talking to 2 French and 1 english club. Offer from IRFU on the table. They say that his management have enlisted another agent who is licencsed to operate in france

Don Kiddick

Burkie1203 wrote: »

IT say POM is talking to 2 French and 1 english club. Offer from IRFU on the table. They say that his management have enlisted another agent who is licencsed to operate in france

Yep, saw that. It has been rumoured before that POM could be one to leave...he's had a career threatening injury and is now in fine form...28 years of age...his wife has French connections... rumours of his salary being doubled.... frankly, he'd be daft not to give it serious consideration... There's an English side looking too... he'd definitely get a major pay increase across the pond also.... worrying times ahead as a Munster/Ireland supporter

Former Former

Meh, wouldn't worry. POM is a step up in importance from anyone who's left previously. Just a bit of a shakedown I'd say.

2019 will be his last shot at a World Cup which could be important given how the last one ended for him.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Meh, wouldn't worry. POM is a step up in importance from anyone who's left previously. Just a bit of a shakedown I'd say.

2019 will be his last shot at a World Cup which could be important given how the last one ended for him.

You can't discount that injury though. He was out for a long time and somebody with the possibility of another injury ending their career would be justified in taking the money now rather than gamble on the elusive pot of gold at the end of the RWC rainbow. Which won't butter any parsnips.

Wegians89

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

prawnsambo

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

So having his cake and eating it. Good man POM.

Wegians89

prawnsambo wrote: »

So having his cake and eating it. Good man POM.

Can't blame him tbh

molloyjh

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

Yeah that makes sense really. Smart way to do it if in fact that's what he's doing.

phog

Just a bit on the scrumhalf situation for Ireland via BallHandling Hooker on Twitter

Joe Schmidt has been in charge of Ireland for 50 games. The following thread is a look at who the scrumhalves he has chosen in his matchday 23 are. What time a replacement was made - and at was score in the game....

Conor Murray has been by far Schmidt's first choice - starting him in 38/50 games, and 2 sub appearances.
In the 2 games that Murray was a sub - Murray came on at 56 minutes (v Argentina Summer 2013), and 71 minutes (Romania RWC15).

Murray was played 80 minutes 13 times, and was the 9 that kept a sub on the bench every time that situation occurred (7).
Murray played over 75 minutes eight more times.

The next most used scrumhalf was Eoin Reddan with 5 starts, and 14 sub appearances.
Reddan also had 2 games where he was kept on the bench, and 2 where he came on when Murray also stayed on (at 78 minutes, and at 77 minutes).

More
Still, Reddan was trusted to come on before 60 minutes (1), 60-65 mins (3), and 65-70 mins (3).
Reddan did have two appearances at scrumhalf between 70-75, and 3 after 75 minutes.

Marmion has been in 23 Schmidt matchday squads - starting 5, and being unused in 8. He also has 3 games with less than 5 minutes, and another with less than 10.
Schmidt played an injured Murray for 10 minutes before putting on Marmion - before Murray was out injured for 2 months

Marmion only came on in one game that had a less than 2 score advantage before 75 minutes for reasons other than an injury. That was his 1st cap v Argentina in the 2013 tour when it was 23-10 after 58 minutes.

All of the margins that Marmion has come on for Murray/Reddan when it wasn't due to injury before the 75th minute:

v Argentina (58th) 23-10 W
v Italy (59th min) 46-10 W
v Georgia (62nd) 30-7 W
v Wales (67th) 35-7 W
v Italy (68th) 41-10 W
v South Africa (70th) 24-3 W [2017]

The only game that Marmion has come on in a losing position was against South Africa in the 2nd test in 2016. It was in the 77th min - just after South Africa had taken the lead from a missed tackle from Conor Murray after Ireland had been visibly tiring for 30 mins at altitude

Now, Luke McGrath and John Cooney got similar treatment. In Cooney's single appearance - it was 28-13 against Japan in the 72nd minute before he was put on over Marmion;

McGrath got 5 minutes this November taking over from Marmion (v Fiji), and Murray (v Argentina [28-12])

* that's 5 minutes total - 3 minutes against Fiji, 2 and a half against Argentina.

Former Former

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

That would be a good deal for POM. Might be a bad precedent for the IRFU to set.

awec

We’ve come full circle now, players wanting shorter deals instead of longer ones. I guess the dynamics have changed and players don’t want to get tied down in Ireland in their late career.

errlloyd

awec wrote: »

We’ve come full circle now, players wanting shorter deals instead of longer ones. I guess the dynamics have changed and players don’t want to get tied down in Ireland in their late career.

POM would turn 34 during the France world cup. Which is fine for many back rowers, but I guess he has an abrasive enough style and did start youngish. It seems to me reasonably rational that he would conclude that this world cup is quite possibly his last even if he stays in Ireland. And he also probably knows that if he is still feeling great at the next World Cup he could come home and play in it.

After every World Cup New Zealand heaomrage a load of players. It has almost hurt them before (Steven Donald did well, but in reality Nick Evans was a better player in 2011). However I think that culture of giving it to your country for world cup cycles is a good one. There are back rowers coming who can step up. Now our teams need leadership. Ageing veterans are additional coaches. So we don't want to lose them all, but we can afford to let a few go right?

Same could be said of SOB, Toner and even Sexton. If they wanted a payday the IRFU shouldn't invest too heavily keeping them all beyond Japan. IMHO.

sydthebeat

one thing we dont have over here, probably due to the smaller number of top level players, is the 'years sabbatical' that some all black players are offered ie Dan Carter, Ben Smith, Richie McCaw, generally towards the twilight of their career to get one last RWC out of them.

For example, Sexton could definitely benefit from a six month break around winter '18. At that stage Sexton will be a year older than Carter was when he took his break. Maybe taking at '18 November internationals and the 2019 6N off.

pickarooney

Sounds ideal really. Plenty of notice, POM for a RWC and a nice payday for him to round off his career. It's not a problem position for Ireland and Munster have time to bring in/through a replacement.

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

one thing we dont have over here, probably due to the smaller number of top level players, is the 'years sabbatical' that some all black players are offered ie Dan Carter, Ben Smith, Richie McCaw, generally towards the twilight of their career to get one last RWC out of them.

For example, Sexton could definitely benefit from a six month break around winter '18. At that stage Sexton will be a year older than Carter was when he took his break. Maybe taking at '18 November internationals and the 2019 6N off.

Did Carter miss any AB games or was it just Super Rugby that he missed.

The 6Ns is too important for us not to have our best players. If Sexton were to take a break I'd suggest the time to do it is after the Australia tour so as you say he'd miss next year's Autumn games and the first half of the domestic season. But as you say we can't easily replace a player like Sexton in the same way NZ can.

dub_skav

I thought the AB sabatticals were to allow them to go abroad to get a wedge of cash.

So, rather than a physical break it was a way to keep them under contract while getting the foreign cash.

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Did Carter miss any AB games or was it just Super Rugby that he missed.

The 6Ns is too important for us not to have our best players. If Sexton were to take a break I'd suggest the time to do it is after the Australia tour. But as you say we can't easily replace a player like Sexton in the same way NZ can.

Best time for a break is before the Aussie tour. Finish out this season in May and take a break until December. Back in for the back to back games in Europe to build up some fitness for the 2019 6Ns. Ireland can go down to Oz with Carbery as first choice and maybe bring both Keatley and Byrne. Use the June and November games to develop the depth a bit more, even if it means a few losses. At this stage we've developed a good enough record over the last 4 years that we can afford to lose a couple of non-tournament Tests if it means having a better squad for the RWC. Sure people are talking about that now, they'll be even more focused on it next year. If we frame June and November as development opportunities most will be happy with that.

dub_skav

dub_skav wrote: »

I thought the AB sabatticals were to allow them to go abroad to get a wedge of cash.

So, rather than a physical break it was a way to keep them under contract while getting the foreign cash.

McCaw didn't go anywhere afaik, he just didn't play. Ben Smith is on a sabbatical too at the moment, is he playing in Japan or anything? Carter did a season in Perpignan that ended before it began through injury.

dub_skav

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

McCaw didn't go anywhere afaik, he just didn't play. Ben Smith is on a sabbatical too at the moment, is he playing in Japan or anything? Carter did a season in Perpignan that ended before it began through injury.

You're right. The Carter situation and the many rumours about McCaw had me confused.

sydthebeat

bilston wrote: »

Did Carter miss any AB games or was it just Super Rugby that he missed.

The 6Ns is too important for us not to have our best players. If Sexton were to take a break I'd suggest the time to do it is after the Australia tour so as you say he'd miss next year's Autumn games and the first half of the domestic season. But as you say we can't easily replace a player like Sexton in the same way NZ can.

cruden started 8 tests in 2014....Barrett starting 3 i think

so basically Carter missed the june internationals and the rugby championship.

It actually worked out well for NZ to do this as Cruden missed the whole of RWC 15 due to ligament injury...as they had Barrett well blooded to slot in as reserve 10 with significant top level game time, which he wouldnt have had if carter had stayed around.

I suppose im just putting it out there that maybe it wouldnt be the worst call in the world to give the '19 6N to the second choice 10 ? be that whomever.

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

McCaw didn't go anywhere afaik, he just didn't play. Ben Smith is on a sabbatical too at the moment, is he playing in Japan or anything? Carter did a season in Perpignan that ended before it began through injury.

Something I didn't know about Richie McCaw until recently is that he's a commercial helicopter pilot now. Maybe that's what he spent his sabbatical on.

Yeah_Right

dub_skav wrote: »

I thought the AB sabatticals were to allow them to go abroad to get a wedge of cash.

So, rather than a physical break it was a way to keep them under contract while getting the foreign cash.

They're both. Some players use it to take break and recharge. Nonu went Japan to get a big pay cheque. SBW did boxing and 7s I think. Kaino didn't take a sabbatical but took a two year break in Japan. I think it's something the IRFU could look at when discussing contracts.

POM has earned the right to a short contract then a pay day in France or the UK. LF is a position of depth in Ireland. By the time the RWC in 2019 comes round, Munster will have plenty of experience there as well. It would be a shame to lose him but he has earned it.

leakyboots

Would be sorry to see him go obviously but wouldn't begrudge him.

You just wonder is this a trickle of players making the move to France that will soon become a torrent - why wait til you're 30 to move and make big bucks when if you're good enough at 24/25...

I've no idea what the solution is but I really hope we don't start becoming feeder clubs for the French and English

irelandrover

How many players will be out of contract after the World Cup, are we likely to see a big exodus at that stage?

irishfan9

irelandrover wrote: »

How many players will be out of contract after the World Cup, are we likely to see a big exodus at that stage?

Yes.

RichieRich89

Wegians89 wrote: »

Newstalk saying he's rejected a deal from irfu that would see him here after the World Cup. English and French clubs offering twice as much and that his aim is a short term deal to play in the World Cup and then leave

If he wants to leave straight after the World Cup I don't think he should be selected to play in it. The IRFU/Schmidt did the right thing with Zebo

salmocab

The september WCs mean that if hes moving straight after the tournament then realistically hes not signed for a province during the WC. Obviously they could fudge this with a contract till then but that wouldnt be a runner. Hed be a loss but luckily its in about the only part of the team where we have incredible depth.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

How many players will be out of contract after the World Cup, are we likely to see a big exodus at that stage?

irishfan9 wrote: »

Yes.

Are our "average" international players going to earn any more in France or England than they do in Ireland? I don't really think so tbh.

Don Kiddick

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Are our "average" international players going to earn any more in France or England than they do in Ireland? I don't really think so tbh.

Ian.... feckin... Madigan

prawnsambo

RichieRich89 wrote: »

If he wants to leave straight after the World Cup I don't think he should be selected to play in it. The IRFU/Schmidt did the right thing with Zebo

That wasn't some kind of 'punishment'. Zebo wouldn't be completely free for training camps, POM will.

irishman86

RichieRich89 wrote: »

If he wants to leave straight after the World Cup I don't think he should be selected to play in it. The IRFU/Schmidt did the right thing with Zebo

They should have done the same with Sexton using that logic
It shouldnt be one rule for one and another for others

MJohnston

I think Zebo's omission was at least partially about the fact that the AIs were a depth building exercise, and he isn't going to be part of the Irish future. It's possible enough that he could still feature for Ireland in the Six Nations, when the focus will be back on winning. At the same time, it's possible he won't be back because some of his replacements looked more than capable of filling his role. No doubt the move out of Ireland, and a willingness to nip that in the bud, is a certain portion of the reasoning for leaving him out, but it's not all of it, or at least it's not a reason on its own.

With POM, the situation could be different, it'll be a World Cup, and the focus will be on peak performance way more than usual, so I think that'll outweigh the necessity to drop him because he's moving away. Of course, there's still plenty of time between now and then for someone else to play their way into making his loss not all that much of a big deal, so there's plenty of things that could change.

MJohnston

irishman86 wrote: »

They should have done the same with Sexton using that logic
It shouldnt be one rule for one and another for others

Actually I think there should be one rule for one and a different one for another, or more accurately I think every player will have their own rule. There should be a multitude of ways to interpret the 'rules' around this, because not every situation is the same.

The way to reconcile what happened with Sexton compared to what happened with Zebo is simple - how irreplaceable is the player in question? Does the player's new foreign contract allow them to attend any or all training camps? How important is the next competition? etc. etc.

Under Joe, if the response to the above is "no training camps", then that likely puts that player out of contention (even if they don't move abroad!), and it is almost guaranteed when players move to France or England that they won't be able to attend. These questions will also influence the timing of when a player is dropped too.

Former Former

It's nearly five years since Sexton signed with Racing. Ireland had a different coach at the time. Sexton is about as relevant as Geordan Murphy at this point.

Not that you'd know it on this forum sometimes, but things do occasionally change.

Say what you want about Schmidt, but every player has been treated the same - Moore, Madigan, Ryan and Zebo. If POM turns down a new deal, he won't have an exception made for him.

The idea of a bridging deal so that he can have the best of both worlds would be an awesome outcome for POM but IRFU would be inviting a world of trouble upon themselves.

P.Walnuts

Personally don't believe POM is in the strong negotiating position some believe, we have numerous back row combinations that would negate his departure, if I was a blazer i certainly wouldn't be bending over backwards to keep him if he wants to shun a deal and go abroad.

In saying all that not that I begrudge him at all the opportunity to go make some money

1eg0a3xv7b82of

pom is thinking of leaving in 2 years, so probably is every other irish player today and every day.
this is a story but its not the pom story.
money in france and the add ons we would not be privy to, it is serious stuff.
stockdale agent's phone you can be sure is hopping the last 3 weeks.
the french seem to have the attitude - they dont care how much it costs they will be the new centre of world rugby.
the 2023 world cup, best players, best coaches. they want them all and they will get them all.
within 15 years international rugby will be a very changed landscape. money gives political power and political power is the law.

irishman86

MJohnston wrote: »

Actually I think there should be one rule for one and a different one for another, or more accurately I think every player will have their own rule. There should be a multitude of ways to interpret the 'rules' around this, because not every situation is the same.

The way to reconcile what happened with Sexton compared to what happened with Zebo is simple - how irreplaceable is the player in question? Does the player's new foreign contract allow them to attend any or all training camps? How important is the next competition? etc. etc.

Under Joe, if the response to the above is "no training camps", then that likely puts that player out of contention (even if they don't move abroad!), and it is almost guaranteed when players move to France or England that they won't be able to attend. These questions will also influence the timing of when a player is dropped too.

I disagree respectfully. I felt it when Jonny went that he should have been dropped as should Zebo and POM if he leaves
Or alternatively just pick the best players regardless of where they play which would mean Zebo should be starting at fb as for me hes far better than RK
But with the rules currently in place there should be no bias, which we will see when a Leinster star makes the move or if Murray does

Jump_In_Jack

Surely it's a no brainer, give POM a one year Munster contract, and once he commits to being available for the RWC he can do whatever he pleases after that.
POM would have to accept a lower contract now and take the gamble that he won't be seriously injured before the end of the RWC, and can cash in afterwards.
POM takes all the risk and the IRFU get a good player for cheap.
It would bolster the squad without breaking the bank.
Every other contract could be approached the same way.
But if a player wants to stay for 3 more years at the end of this season then could reward them with a central contract.
Stander would be a much more interesting case, he will also be out of contract in June.
He would probably be more valuable than POM to any foreign club.
Also Andrew Conway will be out of contract in June.

salmocab

irishman86 wrote: »

I disagree respectfully. I felt it when Jonny went that he should have been dropped as should Zebo and POM if he leaves
Or alternatively just pick the best players regardless of where they play which would mean Zebo should be starting at fb as for me hes far better than RK
But with the rules currently in place there should be no bias, which we will see when a Leinster star makes the move or if Murray does

Sexton had a clause from the start with Racing that he could attend all Irish camps so it is different plus Sexton is and at that time was especially absolutely vital to the Irish team. The drop off after Sexton at 10 is bigger than at any other position.

D14Rugby

irishman86 wrote: »

They should have done the same with Sexton using that logic
It shouldnt be one rule for one and another for others

Well the rule seems to be if you can make yourself available for all training camps you can be included. Sexton pretty much paid racing to make himself available whereas others haven't done that so thats why sexton was picked

ClanofLams

D14Rugby wrote: »

Well the rule seems to be if you can make yourself available for all training camps you can be included. Sexton pretty much paid racing to make himself available whereas others haven't done that so thats why sexton was picked

I wouldn't think the Sexton case is binding precedent by any stretch. This is about what's best for Irish rugby not just the Irish team. It's vital that provinces remain competitive so even if POM or anyone else can somehow negotiate a deal to make themselves available for training camps, I'm not sure they would be included.

molloyjh

Folks, there is no rule. Every situation is viewed on its own merits and so far the only exception we’ve seen in the last few years has been Sexton. Every other player who has moved has been dropped. So we’re seeing a consistency there for everyone bar the exceptional cases. Which makes sense. I’ve no idea why it’s even a point of discussion. Common sense is applied, and if we can live without the player we do. End of.

timaru89

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/cj-stander-could-join-peter-o-mahony-in-leaving-munster-1.3308835