Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Bazzo

Am I the only one annoyed at the earlier and earlier everyone is getting worked up about contract renewals? Am I imagining it or did there used to be barely a peep about contracts until some time in the new year. Now the panic seems to be setting in from nearly the start of the season.

molloyjh

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one annoyed at the earlier and earlier everyone is getting worked up about contract renewals? Am I imagining it or did there used to be barely a peep about contacts until some time in the new year. Now the panic seems to be setting in from nearly the start of the season.

Probably because the contracts are now being done earlier after the Sexton debacle.

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

Am I the only one annoyed at the earlier and earlier everyone is getting worked up about contract renewals? Am I imagining it or did there used to be barely a peep about contracts until some time in the new year. Now the panic seems to be setting in from nearly the start of the season.

Actually this is the part I get annoyed with regardless of when it happens.

The IRFU get a lot of shade thrown their way (much of which is proven to be categorically false) along with suggestions of favouritism and other nonsense when the reality is that we are completely in the dark regarding these negotiations and the demands and intentions of all parties involved in the negotiations.

That the media are involved for the sake of optics and pressure is a reality we have to live with, but one which pollutes the discourse and misleads fans into conflict with other fans or the IRFU.

swiwi_

England...and Ireland next autumn for NZ. Juicy.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

England...and Ireland next autumn for NZ. Juicy.

Proper warm up for them. Seems money agreements have kept England and NZ apart a long time now, wonder who extended the olive branch.

Yeah_Right

swiwi_ wrote: »

England...and Ireland next autumn for NZ. Juicy.

Looking forward to giving these NH upstarts a rugby lesson in their own backyards

Former Former

timaru89 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/cj-stander-could-join-peter-o-mahony-in-leaving-munster-1.3308835

So, some French club is going to double the offer that IRFU have made POM, and now some French club is going to triple Stander's money?

I think there are a few agents chancing their arms here.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

So, some French club is going to double the offer that IRFU have made POM, and now some French club is going to triple Stander's money?

I think there are a few agents chancing their arms here.

I think they're talking about doubling POM's new offer and tripling Stander's old contar=ract. It's not too hard to imagine that POM's new central contract might be worth 50% more than Stander's old provincial contract and that they'd be worth twice that in France. Stander could easily go after 600k in France I'd say based on previous Midol numbers.

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

So, some French club is going to double the offer that IRFU have made POM, and now some French club is going to triple Stander's money?

I think there are a few agents chancing their arms here.

Possibly but possibly not. CJ Stander signed his current two year deal as an uncapped player in 2015 at 25 years of age. He has gone on to serious things since then including becoming an important player for Ireland and a Lion.

I don't think it's out of the question that CJS signed a deal for about €200k at that point and is being offered €600k from France now.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

Possibly but possibly not. CJ Stander signed his current two year deal as an uncapped player in 2015 at 25 years of age. He has gone on to serious things since then including becoming an important player for Ireland and a Lion.

I don't think it's out of the question that CJS signed a deal for about €200k at that point and is being offered €600k from France now.

Stander leaving you say?

Former Former

Yeah, I guess it's possible depending on what is meant. I take all these things with an enormous pinch of salt though. I'm still bristling at the "Francis Saili is on 500k per annum" nonsense that was so widely swallowed here.

Stander getting 600k would make him one of the best paid players in France. Whether it's true or not, that info could only have come from one place...

I'll believe these guys are leaving when I see it, but the usual headlines are "contract talks stall" etc while with POM in particular it's been widely reported that he has rejected a contract from the IRFU, which is a bit of a concern.

irishfan9

Silly season is well and truely off.

Buer

I don't believe Stander will leave at all and is just looking for the best deal he can get from the IRFU. He has already uprooted his life once and I don't see him as the nomadic type. I reckon POM is loathe to leave but is also eager to net himself a big pay day as he should be.

I'd be confident both will be at Munster next season and, worst case scenario, POM is on a 1 year deal and agrees to renegotiate for life after the RWC at which point he may depart. I don't think they'd cut him if he announced his departure in advance of the RWC similar to how Zebo has been as he'd still be present for the World Cup cycle which they're obviously building towards.

Former Former

Even aside from the on-pitch loss of Stander, can you imagine the sh*t storm if a project player bailed out on Ireland two years after qualifying to play? Jaysus it would be unbearable. We should just give him whatever he wants.

irishman86

salmocab wrote: »

Sexton had a clause from the start with Racing that he could attend all Irish camps so it is different plus Sexton is and at that time was especially absolutely vital to the Irish team. The drop off after Sexton at 10 is bigger than at any other position.

Shouldnt matter tbh, if they go chasing money they should have no part in the squad
Regardless of the drop off

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishman86 wrote: »

Shouldnt matter tbh, if they go chasing money they should have no part in the squad
Regardless of the drop off

sexton was on silly money in France. even with that he had a contract term that he could make all training camps even outside of windows.

if he didn't have that clause he would have been paid more than 100k per annum more. if anyone goes chasing the money and still takes a big pay cut so they can attend camps the Irish management should consider it. not saying they have to pick thsee players bit they should be considered.

irishman86

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

sexton was on silly money in France. even with that he had a contract term that he could make all training camps even outside of windows.

if he didn't have that clause he would have been paid more than 100k per annum more. if anyone goes chasing the money and still takes a big pay cut so they can attend camps the Irish management should consider it. not saying they have to pick thsee players bit they should be considered.

But hes not available for provinces, like i said regardless of money he shouldnt be picked. For Sexton it was a case of having your cake and eating it

thomond2006

irishman86 wrote: »

Shouldnt matter tbh, if they go chasing money they should have no part in the squad
Regardless of the drop off

Apologies if I've misunderstood your intent, but comments like this come across to me as begrudgery. They are professional athletes, they are not "chasing money".

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Apologies if I've misunderstood your intent, but comments like this come across to me as begrudgery. They are professional athletes, they are not "chasing money".

Well they kind of are, but point is that's not some terrible thing to do.

People basically use it as in insult or an attack on a players character, which is puerile.

Buer

I'll never understand people having a bitterness towards a player who departs for France. How many of us would go to the warm weather of France for 2 years for crazy money to do something they love and probably be able to return to a province after that being set up for life?

I'm genuinely bewildered as to how the IRFU have managed to keep so many of their top players in Ireland.

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Looking forward to giving these NH upstarts a rugby lesson in their own backyards

Ah jaysus lads, not again.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Apologies if I've misunderstood your intent, but comments like this come across to me as begrudgery. They are professional athletes, they are not "chasing money".

Well they are in the same way that when any normal person is looking at other job offers they try to ensure they get the best package possible.

irishman86

thomond2006 wrote: »

Apologies if I've misunderstood your intent, but comments like this come across to me as begrudgery. They are professional athletes, they are not "chasing money".

You did, i 100% understand the choice they make, ive done it myself. But its a choice between money and your country currently and Zebo for example selected money & obviously the chance to experience a different life "Rightfully imo"

Sangre

Buer wrote: »

I'll never understand people having a bitterness towards a player who departs for France. How many of us would go to the warm weather of France for 2 years for crazy money to do something they love and probably be able to return to a province after that being set up for life?

I'm genuinely bewildered as to how the IRFU have managed to keep so many of their top players in Ireland.

I get the impression that most of these players don't actually enjoy their time in France notwithstanding the factors you've listed.  Of course, there are always exceptions but from what I generally understand (usually from retired players so times may have changed) that the playing culture over there is not ideal.  The players returning home are not talking up France.

irishman86

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Well they kind of are, but point is that's not some terrible thing to do.

People basically use it as in insult or an attack on a players character, which is puerile.

Buer wrote: »

I'll never understand people having a bitterness towards a player who departs for France. How many of us would go to the warm weather of France for 2 years for crazy money to do something they love and probably be able to return to a province after that being set up for life?

I'm genuinely bewildered as to how the IRFU have managed to keep so many of their top players in Ireland.

Just to clear it up, im not against them leaving and 100% understand why they do.
When Sexton left at the time i was all for it, id be more against the selection process than a player trying it in another country

Don Kiddick

irishman86 wrote: »

Shouldnt matter tbh, if they go chasing money they should have no part in the squad
Regardless of the drop off

At the detriment to the national team... knock on effect to the IRFU...and then the provinces.... financial suicide won't be happening, don't kid yourself

irishbucsfan

Can't see anyone getting picked if they move abroad at this stage. Unless about 10 players went at once.

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can't see anyone getting picked if they move abroad at this stage.

I don't really think that is up for debate here, it's more about the timing of when they stop getting picked when it's announced that they're moving.

I already posted a lot of waffle about what I think influences the timing.

Buer

Sangre wrote: »

I get the impression that most of these players don't actually enjoy their time in France notwithstanding the factors you've listed.  Of course, there are always exceptions but from what I generally understand (usually from retired players so times may have changed) that the playing culture over there is not ideal.  The players returning home are not talking up France.

I think the sample portion is too small to make a genuinely accurate assessment. We don't tend to hear much at all from the guys who love it because they're there long term and out of the picture.

Trevor Brennan is a walking advertisement for it. Aidan McCullen loved his time in France. David McGowan had a great time there with La Rochelle before injury called a halt to his career. Damien Browne had two stints sandwiched around his Leinster spell and was successful. There's a handul of lads at Pau who have settled very well and been successful. Mick O'Driscoll speaks highly of his time in Perpignan.

I don't know too many who went there and came back really critical of their time there, to be honest. Perhaps guys who struggled on the field to establish themselves?

Sangre

Buer wrote: »

Sangre wrote: »

I get the impression that most of these players don't actually enjoy their time in France notwithstanding the factors you've listed.  Of course, there are always exceptions but from what I generally understand (usually from retired players so times may have changed) that the playing culture over there is not ideal.  The players returning home are not talking up France.

I think the sample portion is too small to make a genuinely accurate assessment. We don't tend to hear much at all from the guys who love it because they're there long term and out of the picture.

Trevor Brennan is a walking advertisement for it. Aidan McCullen loved his time in France. David McGowan had a great time there with La Rochelle before injury called a halt to his career. Damien Browne had two stints sandwiched around his Leinster spell and was successful. There's a handul of lads at Pau who have settled very well and been successful. Mick O'Driscoll speaks highly of his time in Perpignan.

I don't know too many who went there and came back really critical of their time there, to be honest. Perhaps guys who struggled on the field to establish themselves?

Its a fair point.  But there is an element of survivorship bias in that they will generally only be speaking to players who returned and not those staying long.  However, if that is the players they are talking to then they will bear that in mind. Some players who haven't been impressed by France that I'm aware of are Sexton, Madigan, Nic White.  Andy Goode and Jim Hamilton don't rate their times there too highly either.    There are some other high profile examples that I'm struggling to name.

Sangre

Buer wrote: »

Sangre wrote: »

I get the impression that most of these players don't actually enjoy their time in France notwithstanding the factors you've listed.  Of course, there are always exceptions but from what I generally understand (usually from retired players so times may have changed) that the playing culture over there is not ideal.  The players returning home are not talking up France.

I think the sample portion is too small to make a genuinely accurate assessment. We don't tend to hear much at all from the guys who love it because they're there long term and out of the picture.

Trevor Brennan is a walking advertisement for it. Aidan McCullen loved his time in France. David McGowan had a great time there with La Rochelle before injury called a halt to his career. Damien Browne had two stints sandwiched around his Leinster spell and was successful. There's a handul of lads at Pau who have settled very well and been successful. Mick O'Driscoll speaks highly of his time in Perpignan.

I don't know too many who went there and came back really critical of their time there, to be honest. Perhaps guys who struggled on the field to establish themselves?

Its a fair point.  But there is an element of survivorship bias in that they will generally only be speaking to players who returned and not those staying long.  However, if that is the players they are talking to then they will bear that in mind. Some players who haven't been impressed by France that I'm aware of are Sexton, Madigan, Nic White.  Andy Goode and Jim Hamilton don't rate their times there too highly either.    There are some other high profile examples that I'm struggling to name.

irishman86

Don Kiddick wrote: »

At the detriment to the national team... knock on effect to the IRFU...and then the provinces.... financial suicide won't be happening, don't kid yourself

Well Zebo getting dropped is a detriment to the NT

Don Kiddick

irishman86 wrote: »

Well Zebo getting dropped is a detriment to the NT

Depends on who you ask

And I'm really looking at long term if enough players emigrate ...if you get 4-6 from each province...it could be serious

tooManyChoices

Sangre wrote: »

Its a fair point.  But there is an element of survivorship bias in that they will generally only be speaking to players who returned and not those staying long.  However, if that is the players they are talking to then they will bear that in mind. Some players who haven't been impressed by France that I'm aware of are Sexton, Madigan, Nic White.  Andy Goode and Jim Hamilton don't rate their times there too highly either.    There are some other high profile examples that I'm struggling to name.

Seems like the guys who like the place most are the ones who weren't that happy where the were and feel they weren't given a fair chance at the national team.

Guys like Iain Balshaw, David Strettle and the Armitage brothers.

tooManyChoices

tooManyChoices wrote: »

Seems like the guys who like the place most are the ones who weren't that happy where the were and feel they weren't given a fair chance at the national team.

Guys like Iain Balshaw, David Strettle and the Armitage brothers.

There were a few Irish players at Pau who seemed to get on alright as well.

For someone like Sexton or POM it has to be a bit of a shock going from playing 8 league games a season to playing 20+.

irishman86

Don Kiddick wrote: »

Depends on who you ask

And I'm really looking at long term if enough players emigrate ...if you get 4-6 from each province...it could be serious

It could easily happen. Why would a player stay for 200k when they can make 600k. For me its not that difficult a decision

tooManyChoices

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

There were a few Irish players at Pau who seemed to get on alright as well.

For someone like Sexton or POM it has to be a bit of a shock going from playing 8 league games a season to playing 20+.

Good point. It must be a lot more of a shock going to France from Ireland where players are well managed than from England where players are flogged almost as badly.

JPCN1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can't see anyone getting picked if they move abroad at this stage. Unless about 10 players went at once.

Rightly so and even if 10 were to go it should not make a difference. There are worse things than losing and selling the future down the river to keep pace with French and English wage inflation is the road to ruin.
Anyway the 90's weren't that bad, really!

As mentioned as pro's they have to make those choices and should not be derided for moving.

ClanofLams

Is the Munster move to one base in Limerick a factor in these moves/rumours I wonder? Donnacha Ryan, Zebo and POM all lived in Cork as far as I know, not sure about Stander.

It was clearly the right move to have one base (a factor in Munsters improvement last season too) but it might be causing short term disruption if guys are having to either do a three hour commute or presumably more likely, spend another night or two a week away from home on top of all the travelling that's already done.

MJohnston

ClanofLams wrote: »

Is the Munster move to one base in Limerick a factor in these moves/rumours I wonder? Donnacha Ryan, Zebo and POM all lived in Cork as far as I know, not sure about Stander.

It was clearly the right move to have one base (a factor in Munsters improvement last season too) but it might be causing short term disruption if guys are having to either do a three hour commute or presumably more likely, spend another night or two a week away from home on top of all the travelling that's already done.

I reckon that's overthinking it. It's about money, and not in a greedy sense. In the sense that nearly every sports person has to think about - I'll be retired at 35 and have to support a family for probably 30 years on the income I've already made, unless I'm lucky enough to get one of the few sports related jobs out there.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

I reckon that's overthinking it. It's about money, and not in a greedy sense. In the sense that nearly every sports person has to think about - I'll be retired at 35 and have to support a family for probably 30 years on the income I've already made, unless I'm lucky enough to get one of the few sports related jobs out there.

As for why it might be happening in Munster more, it might well be down to the relative salaries in each province. Leinster and Ulster star players are probably going to be earning more there than a similar player at Munster (not to mention the C word).

errlloyd

Sangre wrote: »

Its a fair point.  But there is an element of survivorship bias in that they will generally only be speaking to players who returned and not those staying long.  However, if that is the players they are talking to then they will bear that in mind. Some players who haven't been impressed by France that I'm aware of are Sexton, Madigan, Nic White.  Andy Goode and Jim Hamilton don't rate their times there too highly either.    There are some other high profile examples that I'm struggling to name.

I wonder what Jimmy Gopperth thinks of his time in Ireland. I think it's possible people have individually tough times. Ben Te'o was another who was apparently not the happiest in Dublin despite being a fan favourite.

ClanofLams

MJohnston wrote: »

I reckon that's overthinking it. It's about money, and not in a greedy sense. In the sense that nearly every sports person has to think about - I'll be retired at 35 and have to support a family for probably 30 years on the income I've already made, unless I'm lucky enough to get one of the few sports related jobs out there.

I'd agree it's definitely mostly about money but just when you factor in the other things that may have kept them here, quality of life would surely rank high. And that must be strongly impacted by the move to one base especially if these lads have a home, partner and kids in Cork. Aside from Zebo, not sure how many do but presumably some do.

They're obviously away a lot as is. Now they have even more time spent away due to commuting/staying overnight in Limerick.

Former Former

MJohnston wrote: »

As for why it might be happening in Munster more, it might well be down to the relative salaries in each province. Leinster and Ulster star players are probably going to be earning more there than a similar player at Munster (not to mention the C word).

I'm not sure that's the case. Definitely not for the guys on central contracts and Most salaries for Irish guys on provincial contracts are paid by IRFU anyway; if there was a disparity, you'd see more guys moving internally and you'd have Leinster and Ulster poaching lads left right and centre.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can't see anyone getting picked if they move abroad at this stage. Unless about 10 players went at once.

Think Murray would test that theory, particularly with a release clause a la Sexton.

Yeah_Right

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah jaysus lads, not again.

Don't be upset molloy. I'm sure it will be a good match and the ABs won't hammer you. Twickenham will be a hiding but Dublin will be something similar to the 2013 game

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Don't be upset molloy. I'm sure it will be a good match and the ABs won't hammer you. Twickenham will be a hiding but Dublin will be something similar to the 2013 game

:eek:

You're a nasty, nasty man. I'll either have to remember this post forever or forget it's entire existence. I'll just have to wait a year to find out which it is to be.

Henwin

whats the story with Andrew Trimble, was he injured for the autumn internationals or just out of form. i hope he is involed in the 6 nations.

Burkie1203

Sorry Thomond.


https://twitter.com/RugbyLAD7/status/935918905259945984

CIARAN_BOYLE

Henwin wrote: »

whats the story with Andrew Trimble, was he injured for the autumn internationals or just out of form. i hope he is involed in the 6 nations.

He is 33 and not in great form. He will be 35 during rwc 2019 and backs generally decline earlier than forwards. He is in the last year of his contract and unless his form picks up it may not be renewed.

Same position as Tommy Bowe really.

That said both did decently for Ulster in their last appearance. A rearrange in form may be underway.