Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

MattD

I don't think anyone has done anything too amazing or egregious to really change pecking orders in Joe's eyes.

From the November squad, it looks like someone will have to replace Tracy (Cronin) and Scannell if fit will get in ahead of Herring. VDF will be back ahead of O'Donnell. Someone will replace Ruddock (JOD or Murphy). Ringrose will hopefully be back ahead of McCloskey, and maybe someone to replace Dave Kearney (McFadden?)

Wegians89

Think Barry Daly will be the only real change to the squad, probably in place of Dave Kearney

thomond2006

Wegians89 wrote: »

Think Barry Daly will be the only real change to the squad, probably in place of Dave Kearney

Earls will replace Kearney.

Edit: Was Earls in the original autumn squad? I can't recall.

Bazzo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Earls will replace Kearney.

Edit: Was Earls in the original autumn squad? I can't recall.

Yeah he was in the squad but got injured before he could play.

Wegians89

thomond2006 wrote: »

Earls will replace Kearney.

Edit: Was Earls in the original autumn squad? I can't recall.

Could be wrong but I thought Dave was on the initial squad? Is so I don’t think both of sweetman or Adam Byrne will be in it either. Think earls McFadden, Daly, Conway Rob Kearney and stockdale Will all be involved

stephen_n

Wegians89 wrote: »

Could be wrong but I thought Dave was on the initial squad? Is so I don’t think both of sweetman or Adam Byrne will be in it either. Think earls McFadden, Daly, Conway Rob Kearney and stockdale Will all be involved

Think the euro games might dictate if Daly gets a look in. He was in contention for the wider squads of the Ai's. If he doesn't force his way into the Leinster team in the next two games, I doubt he will make the 6N squads.

Jump_In_Jack

Bridge93 wrote: »

I also see no world where Chris Farrell is ahead of Ringrose if Schmidt calls upon another centre. He's done nothing to suggest that's the case

Ringrose appears to be out again with an injury. Wow, no world eh..,

ScissorPaperRock

Yup, Ringrose apparently to miss upcoming Champions Cup games and first two rounds of Six Nations at least

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leinster-star-garry-ringrose-ruled-out-for-six-weeks-36471285.html

Buer

Season is a bit of a write off for him at this stage. Couldn't have come at a worse time, really. Aki will almost certainly cement his spot in the Irish team and, if someone performs well and it's a close call, it's hard to take that jersey back unless there's an injury as guys like POM found out.

ScissorPaperRock

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Yup, Ringrose apparently to miss upcoming Champions Cup games and first two rounds of Six Nations at least

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leinster-star-garry-ringrose-ruled-out-for-six-weeks-36471285.html

He probably wouldn't have made the Ireland team but that's a right balls for Leinster. I really hope they keep Henshaw at 12 and replace him with ROL. Was going to say Larmour but yeah, bit much to start even him at 13 in a Euro game.

Madelynn Glamorous Range

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

He probably wouldn't have made the Ireland team but that's a right balls for Leinster. I really hope they keep Henshaw at 12 and replace him with ROL. Was going to say Larmour but yeah, bit much to start even him at 13 in a Euro game.

I'd imagine if ISA is fit he'll slot in at 12 with Henshaw 13 as opposed to Henshaw 12 ROL 13.

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

He probably wouldn't have made the Ireland team but that's a right balls for Leinster. I really hope they keep Henshaw at 12 and replace him with ROL. Was going to say Larmour but yeah, bit much to start even him at 13 in a Euro game.

With the depth that's been developed over the last couple of years, I was expecting to see a bit of rotation this 6N. I may be wrong, but having developed depth, you have to maintain it, otherwise it gets stale. On that basis I would have thought Ringrose had a very good chance of making a match-day squad.

Clegg

With Ringrose injured Henshaw is a dead cert to start at 13 for Ireland in the 6N. Get him in that jersey now for Leinster to reacquaint himself with the position. He's good enough to swap from inside to outside centre with minimal fuss but the extra game time there wouldn't hurt. It's tough on RoL but I think a 12/13 combo of Nacewa and Henshaw is marginally better than a Henshaw/ROL one.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

With the depth that's been developed over the last couple of years, I was expecting to see a bit of rotation this 6N. I may be wrong, but having developed depth, you have to maintain it, otherwise it gets stale. On that basis I would have thought Ringrose had a very good chance of making a match-day squad.

6N and rotation just don't go together and they never have. The only case I can think of is in 2009 Kidney made four unforced changes for the Scotland game. He never did anything similar again, EOS didn't do it, Schmidt doesn't do it.

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

6N and rotation just don't go together and they never have. The only case I can think of is in 2009 Kidney made four unforced changes for the Scotland game. He never did anything similar again, EOS didn't do it, Schmidt doesn't do it.

I know it hasn't happened in the past. But I believe we may see it this year.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I know it hasn't happened in the past. But I believe we may see it this year.

It would be a departure on the part of the IRFU not to have this tournament as an absolute priority.

I appreciate what you are saying regarding rotation and squad building and that will happen to a degree as a result of injuries, but I can't see Schmidt not picking his best available 23 for most games this six nations even with the World Cup approaching next year.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be a departure on the part of the IRFU not to have this tournament as an absolute priority.

I appreciate what you are saying regarding rotation and squad building and that will happen to a degree as a result of injuries, but I can't see Schmidt not picking his best available 23 for most games this six nations even with the World Cup approaching next year.

There are a lot of players of a similar level that could be rotated in and out. For example, Luke McGrath and Kieran Marmion.

Edit: I'm typing this from a nuclear shelter as far from Connacht as possible.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

There are a lot of players of a similar level that could be rotated in and out. For example, Luke McGrath and Kieran Marmion.

On the bench, sure, but SH is the one position where Schmidt basically gives nobody else a shot at all. There were some stats about recently about just how little gametime anyone else has had there other than Murray.

Clegg

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

6N and rotation just don't go together and they never have. The only case I can think of is in 2009 Kidney made four unforced changes for the Scotland game. He never did anything similar again, EOS didn't do it, Schmidt doesn't do it.

Kidney rotated the squad a few times at the nadir of his reign. Things weren't working with the old reliables so he parachuted Gilroy, Zebo and Marshall into the squad. It was really a mad scramble to get a decent performance rather than build squad depth but whatever.

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

On the bench, sure, but SH is the one position where Schmidt basically gives nobody else a shot at all. There were some stats about recently about just how little gametime anyone else has had there other than Murray.

OK. Keith Earls and Andrew Conway. Cian Healy and Jack McGrath.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

OK. Keith Earls and Andrew Conway. Cian Healy and Jack McGrath.

What he may do is change things up depending on the type of game he wants to play.

I just don't think he's going to use the 6 Nations to 'have a look' at guys. His first priority will be to win, if he can do that and still manage some rotation then great, but I don't think he'll make changes that will in anyway weaken the side in his view.

We've actually blooded a lot of new players and given out a good few new caps the last while, there is a point where that start to become counter productive as well.

Joe needs to be more conservative

stephen_n

The reality is, neither EOS or Kidney had the depth to make changes. Nor did they have the competitive environment. Would dropping POM for Leavy, or Aki for Ringrose weaken the team in any way. From what we have seen, swapping Toner for Ryan for a game wouldn’t damage us, or Dillane for that matter. This is the first time when our first choice 23 doesn’t pretty much select itself based on ability.

sydthebeat

hes after spending the summer and autumn of last year to "having a look at guys" ...
we capped 14 new players last year (2 during the 6N and 12 during the tours)

due to injury crises wales capped 15
england capped 12
scotland 3
italy 8ish

there is no need to be looking at new players during the 6n at this stage. maybe players like larmour might be brought into the training squad, but i cannot see him starting uncapped in any game.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

What he may do is change things up depending on the type of game he wants to play.

I just don't think he's going to use the 6 Nations to 'have a look' at guys. His first priority will be to win, if he can do that and still manage some rotation then great, but I don't think he'll make changes that will in anyway weaken the side in his view.

We've actually blooded a lot of new players and given out a good few new caps the last while, there is a point where that start to become counter productive as well.

Joe needs to be more conservative

Talk about putting words in my mouth.

He's already 'had a look at them'. I'm talking about using the ones he's looked at. Not having a punt on new caps. Although that's not completely out of the question either, if injuries strike.

I actually gave examples. Did they strike you as new caps?

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Talk about putting words in my mouth.

He's already 'had a look at them'. I'm talking about using the ones he's looked at. Not having a punt on new caps. Although that's not completely out of the question either, if injuries strike.

I actually gave examples. Did they strike you as new caps?

I'm not really having an argument here, reading back over your posts I see what you are getting at and I don't disagree. It's all a bit semantic over the use of the word rotation.

I would see rotation as dropping Sexton for 2 games when fit and starting Ross Byrne or Carbery. Or dropping Rob Kearney for 2 games and starting Conway back there. These changes will happen outside of the Italy game.

I don't think Joe will do these things unless he has to. He will have a gameplan for each match and an ideal 23 to implement that. I don't think 'gametime' for the wider squad will impact who is in that 23. Fatigue, injury and form in camp will be the rotators in chief.

awec

I don't think we'll see any new caps this 6N. There is nobody knocking on the door who hasn't already been capped.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I don't think we'll see any new caps this 6N. There is nobody knocking on the door who hasn't already been capped.

Larmour is the obvious stand out.

Oh God.

I was just doing a quick google to see if I could find a picture of Larmour knocking on a door or something that could be easily photo-shopped into the same and instead I discovered this.

http://armodelagency.com/2015/11/16/jordan-larmour/

Twinkle toes indeed!

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

Larmour is the obvious stand out.

I'd say he's next in line for a cap but I would doubt he is at the stage where he'll be included next month.

It took Stockdale about a year or so, Larmour should aim for the AIs or if he's lucky he might go to Australia.

Who do we play this November?

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I'd say he's next in line for a cap but I would doubt he is at the stage where he'll be included next month.

It took Stockdale about a year or so, Larmour should aim for the AIs or if he's lucky he might go to Australia.

Who do we play this November?

fully agreed,

the best example i can see was ringrose, who had significant people clamouring for his inclusion in the 2016 6N squad, but joe held him off until the november series.

i expect the very same with larmour, unless we have back 3 injury crisis.

sydthebeat

oh and we play the all blacks this november and argentina and a tier 2 (though not fully confirmed IIRC)

Former Former

awec wrote: »

I don't think we'll see any new caps this 6N. There is nobody knocking on the door who hasn't already been capped.

Considering we capped so many people between the summer and Autumn, the only potentials are:
- Larmour - it would only take one or two injuries and he's in the mix
- Ross Byrne - one injury and it's a choice between Byrne and Keatley - and given how fragile Sexton and Carbery are, it's more likely than not.

Can't think of anyone else likely to feature.

awec

Assuming Zebo is omitted from the initial squad I would imagine he'd be the first call up if injuries demanded it.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Assuming Zebo is omitted from the initial squad I would imagine he'd be the first call up if injuries demanded it.

I'd be 50/50 on Zebo being called up. As in that's how I'd rate his chances.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

Assuming Zebo is omitted from the initial squad I would imagine he'd be the first call up if injuries demanded it.

i would be flabbergasted if he was the first call up to be honest.

3rd or 4th maybe, but not first

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

i would be flabbergasted if he was the first call up to be honest.

3rd or 4th maybe, but not first

I suppose it depends on how we are doing. If we've won all our games to that point and are on course for a slam or a championship I'd expect him to be selected over a new cap.

Former Former

I think the back three will be Earls, Stockdale, Kearney with Conway at 23.

Would expect maybe two of Sweetnam, McFadden, Adam Byrne or Larmour in the wider squad. Then you still have Dave Kearney and TOH as guys who've been capped in the last 12 months as emergency cover.

I think at this point only an injury crisis of biblical proportions will bring Zebo back into the fold.

Kenny B

Can't see Zebo being involved, he is playing only OK and there are many alternatives already.

Stockdale has missed too many tackles recently without looking as dangerous, maybe in the Irish team he could be better, neither Sweetnam or Adam Byrne know how to defend either and need huge improvements, 2 of the softest caps doled out in recent years.

Earls and Conway are my 2 wingers, lob in Tiernan and that's a fine back 3, Bundee and Henshaw to murderise all, down the middle.

awec

Kenny B wrote: »

Can't see Zebo being involved, he is playing only OK and there are many alternatives already.

Stockdale has missed too many tackles recently without looking as dangerous, maybe in the Irish team he could be better, neither Sweetnam or Adam Byrne know how to defend either and need huge improvements, 2 of the softest caps doled out in recent years.

Earls and Conway are my 2 wingers, lob in Tiernan and that's a fine back 3, Bundee and Henshaw to murderise all, down the middle.

The Ireland players from Ulster often look rubbish playing for Ulster and then look good playing for Ireland.

awec

awec wrote: »

The Ireland players from Ulster often look rubbish playing for Ulster and then look good playing for Ireland.

And more to the point if you look at the tackles that Stockdale missed or fell off against Leinster, the major lapses happened already and he was stuck with a 1 v 1.

For the same reason as I would defend the likes of Rob Kearney in 1 v 1 situations I'll also defend Stockdale, the attacker has the advantage especially if they are a 20 stone prop moving at pace or an international winger at full tilt.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

And more to the point if you look at the tackles that Stockdale missed or fell off against Leinster, the major lapses happened already and he was stuck with a 1 v 1.

For the same reason as I would defend the likes of Rob Kearney in 1 v 1 situations I'll also defend Stockdale, the attacker has the advantage especially if they are a 20 stone prop moving at pace or an international winger at full tilt.

Yeah. If you're the winger in that case and you get tackled like that, it's all on you. The best the defender can do is try and herd you towards the touchline or slow you down a bit.

Jump_In_Jack

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Prediction for 6N squad, the players likely to be cut after the first week are marked with ( - )
1. Healy/McGrath/ - Kilcoyne
2. Best/Cronin/*McCartney
3. Furlong/Archer/Porter
4. Henderson/Dillane/ - Holland
5. Toner/J Ryan/ - Roux
6. O'Mahony/Leavy/ - O'Donoghue
7. O'Brien/Van der Flier/ - Reidy
8. Stander/Conan/ - Deegan
9. Murray/Cooney/Marmion
10. Sexton/Keatley/ - Byrne
11. Stockdale/Earls/ - Healy
12. Aki/McCloskey/ - T Farrell
13. Henshaw/C Farrell/ - Ringrose
14. Conway/McFadden/ - Gilroy
15. Kearney/O'Halloran/ - Larmour

*Wishful thinking, probably Herring or Tracy.

Garry Ringrose at centre with a six week ankle injury means out for start of 6N, possibility for Darren Cave or Rory O'Loughlin to get a call up to wider squad,
and James Tracy with an elbow injury, looking like out for medium term same as Niall Scannell, so possibility of Herring or McCartney filling that position.
Still a few weeks to go before selection though so anything could happen yet.

Wegians89

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Garry Ringrose at centre with a six week ankle injury means out for start of 6N, possibility for Darren Cave or Rory O'Loughlin to get a call up to wider squad,
and James Tracy with an elbow injury, looking like out for medium term same as Niall Scannell, so possibility of Herring or McCartney filling that position.
Still a few weeks to go before selection though so anything could happen yet.

Don’t think you’d see cave or o loughlin called up, more likely see the same centres picked as November.

Can’t see McCartney ever being capped.

prawnsambo

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Garry Ringrose at centre with a six week ankle injury means out for start of 6N, possibility for Darren Cave or Rory O'Loughlin to get a call up to wider squad,
and James Tracy with an elbow injury, looking like out for medium term same as Niall Scannell, so possibility of Herring or McCartney filling that position.
Still a few weeks to go before selection though so anything could happen yet.

I'd say snowballs in hell are looking down at Cave's chances for selection.

Jump_In_Jack

Not assuming McCartney or Cave, or O'Loughlin will get capped at all, only as wider squad member, get some time in camp, learn the calls, only if a few injuries came along would even have a remote chance of being on the bench, let alone getting a cap.
Isn't it the norm that a wider squad of about 45 get called in for a few days before whittling it down to about 33 for the 6N competition?

Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Not assuming McCartney or Cave, or O'Loughlin will get capped at all, only as wider squad member, get some time in camp, learn the calls, only if a few injuries came along would even have a remote chance of being on the bench, let alone getting a cap.
Isn't it the norm that a wider squad of about 45 get called in for a few days before whittling it down to about 33 for the 6N competition?

We called up 40 players last year. If we do likewise this year, I'd say it will be:

Best, Scannell, Cronin (assuming Tracy injured)
Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Ryan, Porter
Toner, Hendo, Dillane, Ryan, Treadwell
POM, SOB, Stander, Leavy, VDF, Conan, Murphy
Murray, Marmion, McGrath (possibly Cooney ahead of McGrath)
Sexton, Carbery
Henshaw, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey (possibly Scannell ahead of McCloskey)
Earls, Kearney, Stockdale, Conway, Sweetnam, McFadden

That's 36 - a few more to come in depending on where the injury concerns are.

Darren Cave will never play for Ireland again. I'd say Joe would tog out himself before he'd pick Cave.

MattD

Former Former wrote: »

We called up 40 players last year. If we do likewise this year, I'd say it will be:

Best, Scannell, Cronin (assuming Tracy injured)
Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Ryan, Porter
Toner, Hendo, Dillane, Ryan, Treadwell
POM, SOB, Stander, Leavy, VDF, Conan, Murphy
Murray, Marmion, McGrath (possibly Cooney ahead of McGrath)
Sexton, Carbery
Henshaw, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey (possibly Scannell ahead of McCloskey)
Earls, Kearney, Stockdale, Conway, Sweetnam, McFadden

That's 36 - a few more to come in depending on where the injury concerns are.

Darren Cave will never play for Ireland again. I'd say Joe would tog out himself before he'd pick Cave.

Fully agree with that squad, but I do think that Keatley will be called up to the wider squad as well. A.Byrne hasn't gotten fit again, so looks like he'll miss out on Europe for Leinster and so too probably on at least the first couple matches in the 6N.

Squidgy Black

Leinster stated that Adam Byrne's knee has flared up again and he has to see a specialist, so there's a good chance he'll be out for a bit longer. Without gametime since November, I'd be surprised to see him called up.

Yeah_Right

I think Larmour will be called up to the 6 Nations squad and be used in the same as MacKensie and Ioane were with the ABs and Ringrose was with Ireland (if memory serves me correctly). He will spend time in camp, the coaches will tell him what he needs to work on, he will be given a ton of homework but no game time. Basically he will be there to learn not to play.

prawnsambo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think Larmour will be called up to the 6 Nations squad and be used in the same as MacKensie and Ioane were with the ABs and Ringrose was with Ireland (if memory serves me correctly). He will spend time in camp, the coaches will tell him what he needs to work on, he will be given a ton of homework but no game time. Basically he will be there to learn not to play.

Afaik, he's already done that. Not sure when, but I assume during the AIs.