Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

sydthebeat

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Of course he's going to point out the hypocrisy that Jonny Sexton did the exact same thing yet wasn't dropped.

Exact same?

Did zebo broker a clause in his contract to be free for Irish training camps?

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Exact same?

Did zebo broker a clause in his contract to be free for Irish training camps?

It's not even hypocrisy in the first place, that's not what hypocrisy means. It could be a double standard but the rules have changed.

clsmooth

He knew the consequences before deciding to leave. You can make an argument for picking him this year but then he's taking valuable playing time from the likes of Stockdale and Larmour who need gametime if they're going to viable options for the WC in 18 months. Joe is building a squad for 2019, he needs to be ruthless. Zebo has ruled himself out of selection, no one else.

andymx11

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

It's not even hypocrisy in the first place, that's not what hypocrisy means. It could be a double standard but the rules have changed.

I don't know if the rules have changed. IF Sexton left tomorrow I'm pretty sure exceptions would be made, and rightly so. But I'll guess we will never know!

ScissorPaperRock

This talk of hypocrisy is ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure that, when asked about it, Joe has always said that playing abroad just reduces your chances of being picked, and that 50/50 calls would always go the way of the home-based player.

There was nobody close to Sexton in at that time, and he had clauses to participate in trainings - of course he was going to get picked. He was going to be a key figure in the World Cup team.

On the other hand, Zebo won't have those clauses, is not so vital to the team, and won't be here for the World Cup.

The same criteria are being applied - Zebo just doesn't meet them.

prawnsambo

By talking about Jonny Sexton, he's conveniently forgetting about Ian Madigan and Marty Moore who are much more recent exiles. But their circumstances don't suit his narrative. Despite their similarity to his situation.

Vinnie222

prawnsambo wrote: »

By talking about Jonny Sexton, he's conveniently forgetting about Ian Madigan and Marty Moore who are much more recent exiles. But their circumstances don't suit his narrative. Despite their similarity to his situation.

Did Madigan not play for Ireland against the Springboks even thou it was known he was off to France to play his rugby

prawnsambo

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Did Madigan not play for Ireland against the Springboks even thou it was known he was off to France to play his rugby

That's not the comparison he was making though. It was about playing after leaving.

Vinnie222

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Did Madigan not play for Ireland against the Springboks even thou it was known he was off to France to play his rugby

I don't think he was selected for the SA tour, or if he was Schmidt left him out initially but brought him in when Sexton got injured. I'm sure Zebo would be picked in an injury crisis too.

Squidgy Black

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

I don't think he was selected for the SA tour, or if he was Schmidt left him out initially but brought him in when Sexton got injured. I'm sure Zebo would be picked in an injury crisis too.

Specialty position vs back 3 as well. We're far from short for back 3 players at the moment, but we had nobody behind Jackson at the time.

Stheno

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's not the comparison he was making though. It was about playing after leaving.

No he talked about still being in Munster and being selected for this 6N too

I'd a think after the "He's being naive comments

Is it possible that his deal financially with Racing is similar or equivalent to Sextons and that has coloured some of his comments?

I.e. "racing place a similar value on me so I must be as good?"

prawnsambo

Stheno wrote: »

No he talked about still being in Munster and being selected for this 6N too

I'd a think after the "He's being naive comments

Is it possible that his deal financially with Racing is similar or equivalent to Sextons and that has coloured some of his comments?

I.e. "racing place a similar value on me so I must be as good?"

He was making a direct comparison with Sexton. but yeah, it was about the present. In theory. :rolleyes:

1eg0a3xv7b82of

the only hypocrisy and delusion on display is on this thread by posters with no sense of class, i hope the french and especially the english raid and burn your province.
I am going to email every french club now to ask them to set up an academy in Dublin, they could staff it with the three most famous irish rugby turncoats moore, madigan and Johnny "Moneybags" Sexton, the original and in my opinion the best turncoat.

Squidgy Black

Please, nobody take the bait.

prawnsambo

What bait?

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Please, nobody take the bait.

Ha! I think I can guess what this is in relation to.

Here is a clip of Ireland winning ugly for everyone to enjoy

Podge_irl

There is no comparison with Sexton going abroad to be made for several reasons so it is pointless to engage with the concept.

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ha! I think I can guess what this is in relation to.

Here is a clip of Ireland winning ugly for everyone to enjoy

It’s a doosey. Even worth unblocking just to see it in fairness. There’s talk of burning an entire province and emailing French clubs to get them to set up academy’s in Dublin then some classy comments about some players.

Buer

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

I don't think he was selected for the SA tour, or if he was Schmidt left him out initially but brought him in when Sexton got injured. I'm sure Zebo would be picked in an injury crisis too.

And at that, Madigan got a total of 12 minutes from 3 tests despite being on the bench for all of them. He only came onto the field in the dying minutes when others had to go off injured and there was no other back available.

You leave Ireland, you're done. I don't believe there's a single player who would continue to get picked at this point.

Squidgy Black

Buer wrote: »

You leave Ireland, you're done. I don't believe there's a single player who would continue to get picked at this point.

Potentially Murray, but even then I'd imagine it'd only be if he had similar clauses like Sexton had.

Former Former

There isn't anything too offensive in what Zebo is saying. He's been consistently overlooked by Schmidt for the last five seasons so it's not at all surprising that he doesn't have a positive opinion of him in return. It's no surprise that he wants to go somewhere to win medals, what player doesn't?

The "one rule for Jonny, one rule for me" is self-serving, self-pitying horsesh*t but again, it's harmless enough. He knows it's bollocks but he's hoping we don't, or that people will swallow it. Plenty will, but it doesn't matter.

What is baffling is the timing of this. He is playing for Munster this weekend. It's odd that he's telling everyone how pumped he is to be leaving them to play for this weekend's opponents.

If I was one of his teammates, I'd be raging. I'm not, so I just think it's a bit stupid.

Buer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Potentially Murray, but even then I'd imagine it'd only be if he had similar clauses like Sexton had.

If he went the year leading to the RWC, I would say he might be. But if he moved in the summer of 2020 or had done in the summer of 2016, I reckon he'd have been out of the Irish team.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

There isn't anything too offensive in what Zebo is saying. He's been consistently overlooked by Schmidt for the last five seasons so it's not at all surprising that he doesn't have a positive opinion of him in return. It's no surprise that he wants to go somewhere to win medals, what player doesn't?

The "one rule for Jonny, one rule for me" is self-serving, self-pitying horsesh*t but again, it's harmless enough. He knows it's bollocks but he's hoping we don't, or that people will swallow it. Plenty will, but it doesn't matter.

What is baffling is the timing of this. He is playing for Munster this weekend. It's odd that he's telling everyone how pumped he is to be leaving them to play for this weekend's opponents.

If I was one of his teammates, I'd be raging. I'm not, so I just think it's a bit stupid.

Er, what?

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Er, what?

Ah come on.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Er, what?

HE HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY OVERLOOKED BY SCHMIDT FOR THE LAST FIVE SEASONS!

Hope that helps.

In fairness, he has. Look back at the selections. Zebo has started less than half the games that Schmidt has been head coach for. And that usually wasn't down to injury either. He has only become first choice really in 2017. Even after the Chicago game, Zebo was dropped as soon as Earls and Trimble were both fit.

.ak

The count will be taking a leave of absence..

As for the rest of you, please, reign it in. Any breach of forum charter will be dealt with bans, consider this your warning.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

HE HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY OVERLOOKED BY SCHMIDT FOR THE LAST FIVE SEASONS!

Hope that helps.

In fairness, he has. Look back at the selections. Zebo has started less than half the games that Schmidt has been head coach for. And that usually wasn't down to injury either. He has only become first choice really in 2017. Even after the Chicago game, Zebo was dropped as soon as Earls and Trimble were both fit.

The word overlooked implies it was a mistake though. Just seems like the wrong way of phrasing it to me.

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

HE HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY OVERLOOKED BY SCHMIDT FOR THE LAST FIVE SEASONS!

Hope that helps.

In fairness, he has. Look back at the selections. Zebo has started less than half the games that Schmidt has been head coach for. And that usually wasn't down to injury either. He has only become first choice really in 2017. Even after the Chicago game, Zebo was dropped as soon as Earls and Trimble were both fit.

He hasnt been overlooked. He just never nailed down a first choice place. Going by Zebo's comments he told Joe he cant play the way he was required to.

Zebo is a good player. But he wont be missed in any big way in the national set up. There is others emerging who bring plenty and then some IMO. Conway in particular.

Former Former

Apologies. By "overlooked", I didn't mean that Joe forgot Zebo was there.

I meant that Joe consistently preferred other options pretty much whenever he could and so it's no surprise that Zebo wouldn't give Joe's methods a ringing endorsement.

Again, it's not really what he's saying, just the timing of it is mental.

Flincher

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha! I think I can guess what this is in relation to.

Here is a clip of Ireland winning ugly for everyone to enjoy

HEASLIP TRY

Nice offload from Zebo there. Joe must have been livid....

CIARAN_BOYLE

Former Former wrote: »

Apologies. By "overlooked", I didn't mean that Joe forgot Zebo was there.

I meant that Joe consistently preferred other options pretty much whenever he could and so it's no surprise that Zebo wouldn't give Joe's methods a ringing endorsement.

Again, it's not really what he's saying, just the timing of it is mental.

Zebo and a lot of fans would feel that Zebo's talents rate a higher spot on the depth chart than he has had.

mfceiling

Is he really a mercurial or exciting player? I haven't seen him do anything out of the ordinary recently.

L' Armour running the length of the field with more steps than an escalator or Stockdale taking off with the ball under his arm and ending up scoring in the corner. Haven't seen zebo do anything remotely close.

Maybe at Racing?

clsmooth

Flincher wrote: »

Nice offload from Zebo there. Joe must have been lived....

I think your English teacher will be ‘lived’ with that one

andymx11

mfceiling wrote: »

Is he really a mercurial or exciting player? I haven't seen him do anything out of the ordinary recently.

L' Armour running the length of the field with more steps than an escalator or Stockdale taking off with the ball under his arm and ending up scoring in the corner. Haven't seen zebo do anything remotely close.

Maybe at Racing?

Living off that heel flick...

clsmooth

mfceiling wrote: »

Is he really a mercurial or exciting player? I haven't seen him do anything out of the ordinary recently.

L' Armour running the length of the field with more steps than an escalator or Stockdale taking off with the ball under his arm and ending up scoring in the corner. Haven't seen zebo do anything remotely close.

Maybe at Racing?

Ah in fairness he’s a lovely player, great passer and playmaker. Not quite the out and out of flier he was made out to be when he was coming through but he’s a very good player. Deceptively big too.

Flincher

Zebo hasn't really said anything we don't already know. He's obviously a fairly free-spirited young fella and isn't typical of what a lot of us would consider Schmidt's type of player - the likes of McFadden who are hard working, diligent, are well versed at all the basics, and will follow orders rather than exercise independent thought. From the outside, it seems to be part of the reason Zebo could never nail down a jersey under Schmidt. The other part being that Kearney produces decent performance once a year which seems to be enough for him to hold on to his place, and with it his central contract.

The slight irony of Zebo departing now is that he has made huge strides in his all-round game (work-rate, defense, rucking) under Schmidt and Erasmus in the last 18 months and is better placed than ever to take the shirt from Kearney. Under any other coach, Zebo would be nailed on a full back (granted, Larmour is fast approaching). Zebo has always expressed a desire to play in France, but I'm not convinced he'd have left had he been sure of his place in a World Cup team.

Flincher

clsmooth wrote: »

I think your English teacher will be ‘lived’ with that one

Ah no, I meant Joe lived every moment. Ahem.

prawnsambo

Flincher wrote: »

Zebo hasn't really said anything we don't already know. He's obviously a fairly free-spirited young fella and isn't typical of what a lot of us would consider Schmidt's type of player - the likes of McFadden who are hard working, diligent, are well versed at all the basics, and will follow orders rather than exercise independent thought. From the outside, it seems to be part of the reason Zebo could never nail down a jersey under Schmidt. The other part being that Kearney produces decent performance once a year which seems to be enough for him to hold on to his place, and with it his central contract.

Ah here! You can't say guys like Sexton, Murray etc. aren't capable of independent thought. Or that they can't exercise it. At least not seriously.

MJohnston

Flincher wrote: »

Zebo hasn't really said anything we don't already know.

That's not really the point though is it? There's a difference between what we all know, and a player saying it directly to the media.

Burkie1203

Flincher wrote: »

Zebo hasn't really said anything we don't already know. He's obviously a fairly free-spirited young fella and isn't typical of what a lot of us would consider Schmidt's type of player - the likes of McFadden who are hard working, diligent, are well versed at all the basics, and will follow orders rather than exercise independent thought.

International rugby is very much about structure. Its no coincidence that NZ thrive off turnover ball because, as we saw with scarlets tonight, it is when defences are at their weakest.

Zebo has given an interview with fairly bizarre timing, and admitted that he told the national team coach that he doesn't want to play the way he is being asked to. Going by his comments he appears to want to do his own thing on the pitch. He doesn't want to play in the current structure. Then he says he things he can still be called up for the 6n.

Flincher

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah here! You can't say guys like Sexton, Murray etc. aren't capable of independent thought. Or that they can't exercise it. At least not seriously.

I'm not, I'm saying the likes of McFadden / Kearney would rather follow orders than exercise independent thought. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that they're wrong. They're right to from their perspective as more limited players than Zebo or O'Halloran. It gets them picked. For example, when the opposition kicks long, the orders seem to be for the gathering player to run back towards our pack as quickly as possible. Kearney will do that 100 times out of 100. Zebo / TOH / Larmour will try something different.

I'm sure as key decision makers at 9 and 10, Murray and Sexton are allowed think for themselves within the confines of Joe's prescriptive game plan. I would imagine they could also express themselves more than they currently do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see us play more heads up rugby, but in fairness to Joe, his Six Nations record is nearly as good as Eddie O'Sullivan's, and he's brought us as far as Eddie did in a World Cup, so he's doing something right.

The Lost Sheep

Flincher wrote: »

I'm not, I'm saying the likes of McFadden / Kearney would rather follow orders than exercise independent thought. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that they're wrong. They're right to from their perspective as more limited players than Zebo or O'Halloran. It gets them picked. For example, when the opposition kicks long, the orders seem to be for the gathering player to run back towards our pack as quickly as possible. Kearney will do that 100 times out of 100. Zebo / TOH / Larmour will try something different.

I'm sure as key decision makers at 9 and 10, Murray and Sexton are allowed think for themselves within the confines of Joe's prescriptive game plan. I would imagine they could also express themselves more than they currently do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see us play more heads up rugby, but in fairness to Joe, his Six Nations record is nearly as good as Eddie O'Sullivan's, and he's brought us as far as Eddie did in a World Cup, so he's doing something right.

When you say you think Murray and Sexton could express themselves more what exactly do you want them to do and more heads up rugby is very vague? What do you want to change.
His record is better than Eddies in win percentage in 6 nations and in terms of what we've won

Flincher

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

When you say you think Murray and Sexton could express themselves more what exactly do you want them to do and more heads up rugby is very vague? What do you want to change.
His record is better than Eddies in win percentage in 6 nations and in terms of what we've won

I'm thinking of Murray's inside ball to Zebo against Leicester in Thomond last season. That sort of instinctive stuff that I don't think they have the same license to try in an Irish shirt. Granted it's a vague enough term, but for example, Wayne Pivac would be an advocate of what would be termed heads-up rugby. Players are given license to identify space themselves and attack accordingly. Scarlets are probably an extreme example and I'm not suggesting we offload with wild such abandon. I'd consider Ireland's style of play under Schmidt to be at the other end of the spectrum. It's often very choreographed and low-risk.

My frustration is that where Schmidt has loosened the reigns (Scotland 2015, NZ 2016 in Chicago), the players have shown they have the skill set to play a more adventurous style of play. In fairness to Joe, I think he's recognised this. In 2016 we had the fewest offloads on the Six Nations. We were third in this category last year. We went from 4th to 2nd in defenders beaten. We also looked a bit more creative against an albeit tired Argentina outfit in November.

For the record, Joe's win percentage in the 6N is 65%, Eddie's was 69%. I don't see a huge difference between 2 titles won on points difference and 3 Triple Crowns.

daveyjoe

Flincher wrote: »

I'm thinking of Murray's inside ball to Zebo against Leicester in Thomond last season. That sort of instinctive stuff that I don't think they have the same license to try in an Irish shirt.

That was a set play that they had been practicing in training during the week. Schmidt has had some pretty creative set plays over the years.

Flincher wrote: »

Players are given license to identify space themselves and attack accordingly.

Sounds like France.

Flincher wrote: »

In 2016 we had the fewest offloads on the Six Nations. We were third in this category last year.

To use an Eddie O'Sullivan Cliché, you don't put the cart before the horse. Ireland's basic ball handling skills were not up to scratch when Schmidt took over. If your offload success rate is 50/50 then there's no place for it at international level. It's actually much easier to play with no-offloads rather than a few offloads per match. If you know that the player is not going to offload then you can focus on resourcing the ruck earlier rather than waiting on the chance of an offload before resourcing the ruck.

When the ball handling and offloading skills improved then Schmidt brought in more offloading. Schmidt plays to the team's strengths, we didn't have the natural offloaders that southern hemisphere teams have.

Flincher wrote: »

For the record, Joe's win percentage in the 6N is 65%, Eddie's was 69%. I don't see a huge difference between 2 titles won on points difference and 3 Triple Crowns.

I don't know the 6N stats but I'm pretty sure that Schmidt's overall win rate is higher than Eddie's. We also have a much better world ranking now than we did under Eddie.

The Lost Sheep

Flincher wrote: »

I'm thinking of Murray's inside ball to Zebo against Leicester in Thomond last season. That sort of instinctive stuff that I don't think they have the same license to try in an Irish shirt. Granted it's a vague enough term, but for example, Wayne Pivac would be an advocate of what would be termed heads-up rugby. Players are given license to identify space themselves and attack accordingly. Scarlets are probably an extreme example and I'm not suggesting we offload with wild such abandon. I'd consider Ireland's style of play under Schmidt to be at the other end of the spectrum. It's often very choreographed and low-risk.

My frustration is that where Schmidt has loosened the reigns (Scotland 2015, NZ 2016 in Chicago), the players have shown they have the skill set to play a more adventurous style of play. In fairness to Joe, I think he's recognised this. In 2016 we had the fewest offloads on the Six Nations. We were third in this category last year. We went from 4th to 2nd in defenders beaten. We also looked a bit more creative against an albeit tired Argentina outfit in November.

For the record, Joe's win percentage in the 6N is 65%, Eddie's was 69%. I don't see a huge difference between 2 titles won on points difference and 3 Triple Crowns.

I do. I see titles as being well above triple crowns especially one where we were a distant second(being destroyed by winners, france)
I think its almost cliched now that Schmidt doesnt let irish team/players open up and its been proven on many occasions that he doesnt have any such policy.
Yet Eddie won just 3 triple crowns and in an era where the triple crown is not worth anything like what it used to. JS has so far won 2 championships, which were back to back which is also something we've done 3 times in the 120 odd tournaments we've competed in since the 1880s

Flincher

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I do. I see titles as being well above triple crowns especially one where we were a distant second(being destroyed by winners, france)
I think its almost cliched now that Schmidt doesnt let irish team/players open up and its been proven on many occasions that he doesnt have any such policy.
Yet Eddie won just 3 triple crowns and in an era where the triple crown is not worth anything like what it used to. JS has so far won 2 championships, which were back to back which is also something we've done 3 times in the 120 odd tournaments we've competed in since the 1880s

Fair enough. Difference of opinion. Both Six Nations titles were won on points difference with 4 wins. EOS managed 4 wins in 4 of his Six Nations campaigns. In both 2007 and 2015 the destination of the title was completely dependent on final games not involving Ireland. France scored a last minute try against Scotland to deprive us of the Title in 2007. We needed France to do us a favour in 2016. There's little or no difference between those campaigns in my book.

In relation to the comment on France destroying us, in those triple crown years, we lost in 2007 to a last minute Vinny Clerc try, lost by a score in 2005, and really only took a hiding in 2004 to Grand Slam Winners.

Don't get me wrong, I celebrated the 2014 and 2015 titles like Guinness was going out of production, but looking back objectively I'd rank campaigns with 4/5 wins equally.

Flincher

daveyjoe wrote: »

To use an Eddie O'Sullivan Cliché, you don't put the cart before the horse. Ireland's basic ball handling skills were not up to scratch when Schmidt took over. If your offload success rate is 50/50 then there's no place for it at international level. It's actually much easier to play with no-offloads rather than a few offloads per match. If you know that the player is not going to offload then you can focus on resourcing the ruck earlier rather than waiting on the chance of an offload before resourcing the ruck.

When the ball handling and offloading skills improved then Schmidt brought in more offloading. Schmidt plays to the team's strengths, we didn't have the natural offloaders that southern hemisphere teams have.

That's an interesting take, that Schmidt has improved Ireland's ball handling skills. I've looked at a few line-ups from 2013 - 2015 and Schmidt generally selected 13-15 Leinster players in a match day squad. As he'd have worked with these players on a daily basis for the previous few years, then how did he bring their handling skills up to scratch despite having less time to work with them than he had in previous seasons?

daveyjoe

Flincher wrote: »

That's an interesting take, that Schmidt has improved Ireland's ball handling skills. I've looked at a few line-ups from 2013 - 2015 and Schmidt generally selected 13-15 Leinster players in a match day squad. As he'd have worked with these players on a daily basis for the previous few years, then how did he bring their handling skills up to scratch despite having less time to work with them than he had in previous seasons?

I'm not saying Schmidt himself improved ball handling skills while Ireland coach. I'm just saying that the skills have improved. Most of the skills coaching goes on at provincial level e.g.. Stuart Lancaster and Felix Jones.

Flincher

daveyjoe wrote: »

I'm not saying Schmidt himself improved ball handling skills while Ireland coach. I'm just saying that the skills have improved. Most of the skills coaching goes on at provincial level e.g.. Stuart Lancaster and Felix Jones.

Agreed, I misread you there.

Buer

What I would question is Zebo stating he wants to play with more freedom and attacking flair... and then he signs for Racing.

It would be like me extolling the virtues of healthy eating whilst sitting in the McDonald's drive thru. They score shag all tries relative to other top teams and play a forward dominated game. He can say he's going there for the experience or the cash or whatever but nobody goes to Racing for their rugby style.