Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

The word overlooked implies it was a mistake though. Just seems like the wrong way of phrasing it to me.

In the literal sense. Colloquially, I've often seen it used (even in the media) to refer to a player simply being omitted due to a preference of another.

swiwi_

My 2c: just leave Zebo alone. The guy is a magnet for vitriol on this forum. Sure, he's probably signed for Racing for a pay-check, but he's no doubt disappointed he didn't get to pull on Green in November. I don't think he's ever reached his full potential, and he is rotten unlucky that at the very moment he signed for overseas, up step a host of new back three talent across the provinces (including his own), rendering him surplus to requirements...but I sort of feel let sleeping dogs lie and don't kick a man when he's down.

Still, it's your countryman, not mine, so work away if it serves a purpose.

Burkie1203

swiwi_ wrote: »

My 2c: just leave Zebo alone. The guy is a magnet for vitriol on this forum. Sure, he's probably signed for Racing for a pay-check, but he's no doubt disappointed he didn't get to pull on Green in November. I don't think he's ever reached his full potential, and he is rotten unlucky that at the very moment he signed for overseas, up step a host of new back three talent across the provinces (including his own), rendering him surplus to requirements...but I sort of feel let sleeping dogs lie and don't kick a man when he's down.

Still, it's your countryman, not mine, so work away if it serves a purpose.

Remember, this is only being discussed now because a few days before his current side play his future side he has given a fairly bizarre interview.

In that interview he says he cannot (or does not) want to play in the structured manner he has previously been asked to do so.

He says he is moving to win silverware (ringing endorsement of his current team mates there)

Would an All Black player ever give an interview like this ?

prawnsambo

swiwi_ wrote: »

My 2c: just leave Zebo alone. The guy is a magnet for vitriol on this forum. Sure, he's probably signed for Racing for a pay-check, but he's no doubt disappointed he didn't get to pull on Green in November. I don't think he's ever reached his full potential, and he is rotten unlucky that at the very moment he signed for overseas, up step a host of new back three talent across the provinces (including his own), rendering him surplus to requirements...but I sort of feel let sleeping dogs lie and don't kick a man when he's down.

Still, it's your countryman, not mine, so work away if it serves a purpose.

I actually believe his omission from the November series was only partially due to his announced departure. It put more pressure on Joe to develop some new options with the RWC in mind and with the reducing number of opportunities to do so. People seem to have equated the decision with some kind of 'punishment' when it was much more pragmatic than that.

As for the 'freedom to play' thing, I think that's a complete misrepresentation of what Joe is about. He's often said himself that once the players hit the pitch, it's completely up to them and his job is done. His philosophy is to prepare them as well as possible with the tools to deal with whatever comes up in a game and decide themselves as to what to do. Much like a troubleshooter is prepared for any eventuality and can develop multiple plans on the hoof to deal with particular circumstances.

Like the offloading thing. It's not second nature to Irish players like it is in the SH. Look at James Lowe. Three games in and he's already in the top 25 offloaders in the Pro 14.

stephen_n

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Of course he's going to point out the hypocrisy that Jonny Sexton did the exact same thing yet wasn't dropped.
He clearly wants to play for Ireland and doesn't agree with being dropped for a lesser player and he obviously believes he is one of Ireland's best back 3 players, which he may be in fairness, at least one of the top 3, no harm to believe in himself.
He's Irish and wants to play creative rugby but is being dropped for moving to France.
His position is totally understandable.
It's not malicious, but it is a bit naive however hopeful it may be.
And he is still available this season so he's justifiably frustrated.

Once again for the cheap seats, Sexton didn’t do the exact same thing. He negotiated a very specific contract clause, which as yet it seems Zebo hasn’t. Now if Zebo comes out and says he has a clause releasing him for all training camps, then he might have something to cry about. Other than that he is like Ryan and Madigan and is being treated the same as they were. Why didn’t he compare himself to them? Ego maybe?

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

Once again for the cheap seats, Sexton didn’t do the exact same thing. He negotiated a very specific contract clause, which as yet it seems Zebo hasn’t. Now if Zebo comes out and says he has a clause releasing him for all training camps, then he might have something to cry about. Other than that he is like Ryan and Madigan and is being treated the same as they were. Why didn’t he compare himself to them? Ego maybe?

And Marty Moore. Who at the time he left was probably the most likely successor to Mike Ross and as such, a much more valuable player than Zebo or Madigan.

Larbre34

Its pretty undignified from Zebo. I'm sure the Ireland selectors could give two hoots if "he wouldnt understand...".

Its a naïve and clumsy position he is taking, yes this issue reignited with the Sexton move, but it has been a factor since way back in amateurism. After Sexton, the Union saw the cheque books being opened across the waters at a new level and in an aggressive maner and decided they must protect the game. Although rightly they leave the door open for emergencies (by saying there is no policy) Zebo is far from the first example of this (Madigan, Moore, Hanrahan etc) so this interview comes across as whingey, bitter and childish - no doubt assisted by the rapid ascent of guys stepping up into his positions.

Zeebs should stay above all that, gob shut and nose to the wheel for Munster, he is a huge asset in the 6N window and support them in a credible tilt at both titles, then go do the same for his new employer, cos lord knows that club could do with an culture adjustment.

Former Former

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Zebo and a lot of fans would feel that Zebo's talents rate a higher spot on the depth chart than he has had.

That's exactly my point.

Zebo isn't a guy who's ever lacked self - belief so when he's sitting in the stands for big games, he's not going to agree with it and that's fair enough.

This is a PR exercise. He knew before he signed that he was ending his Ireland career, he knows full well why his case is totally different from Sexton's. Any remote chance he had of a call - up has had a bullet put in it by this interview and he knew that going into it.

It's self -promotion fluff for the most part and if this had been published six months from now it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

But being published yesterday, he's giving two fingers to Joe (fair enough) but with the other hand he's giving another two fingers to his Munster teammates and that's not on.

Vinnie222

Former Former wrote: »

That's exactly my point.

Zebo isn't a guy who's ever lacked self - belief so when he's sitting in the stands for big games, he's not going to agree with it and that's fair enough.

This is a PR exercise. He knew before he signed that he was ending his Ireland career, he knows full well why his case is totally different from Sexton's. Any remote chance he had of a call - up has had a bullet put in it by this interview and he knew that going into it.

It's self -promotion fluff for the most part and if this had been published six months from now it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

But being published yesterday, he's giving two fingers to Joe (fair enough) but with the other hand he's giving another two fingers to his Munster teammates and that's not on.

How is he giving another 2 fingers to his teammates ?

pickarooney

Hanrahan, Madigan and Moore were never first choice at their clubs abroad and were not even in the conversation for national selection.

prawnsambo

pickarooney wrote: »

Hanrahan, Madigan and Moore were never first choice at their clubs abroad and were not even in the conversation for national selection.

Before he left, Marty Moore was though. He was the bench option for Mike Ross in two successive 6N campaigns (2014 and 2015). He tore his hamstring in January 2016, just before he announced he was leaving for Wasps and didn't play for either Leinster or Ireland for the remainder of his time here.

But he was definitely in the conversation and his loss was a big blow. Until Furlong turned up in the nick of time.

The Rape of Lucretia

pickarooney wrote: »

Hanrahan, Madigan and Moore were never first choice at their clubs abroad and were not even in the conversation for national selection.

Like wha ?
They were well in Joe's conversation who kept giving them caps until they left.


(You are correct about Hanno who was never capped at all, but how he has any relevence to this conversation I dont know.)

pickarooney

My point is that, no matter how well they might have been doing in Ireland (and Madigan and Moore were behind Sexton and Ross in any case, and the dogs in the street and Moore himself knew Furlong was the better player, one of the reasons Moore left), any discussion of whether they should have been considered for selection when playing abroad was moot, given how little/poorly they were playing.

prawnsambo

Vinnie222 wrote: »

How is he giving another 2 fingers to his teammates ?

Sitting for an interview with his new club just before Munster have to go there for a vitally important match. I'd say that can't have gone down well.

prawnsambo

pickarooney wrote: »

My point is that, no matter how well they might have been doing in Ireland (and Madigan and Moore were behind Sexton and Ross in any case, and the dogs in the street and Moore himself knew Furlong was the better player, one of the reasons Moore left), any discussion of whether they should have been considered for selection when playing abroad was moot, given how little/poorly they were playing.

That doesn't really change Marty Moore's importance. Since he left, there have been a number of other options tried at tight head including Finlay Bealham and John Ryan.

There is significant depth in that position now. But back then, Mike Ross was rapidly running out of steam and Tadhg Furlong was pretty much the only definite option to replace him. But there was nobody immediately available for the bench or rotation. Joe went to the trouble of sitting down with Moore and getting him to change his mind, only to discover that he was locked in to his contract with Wasps.

Vinnie222

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sitting for an interview with his new club just before Munster have to go there for a vitally important match. I'd say that can't have gone down well.

It was a open secret . I say the players are professional enough for it not to bother them . If anyone should be piss off it should be Zebo with his new club .

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Joe went to the trouble of sitting down with Moore and getting him to change his mind, only to discover that he was locked in to his contract with Wasps.

eh.. maybe...

But I'd have John Ryan ahead of Moore anyway. I'd say it's fairly likely Moore will struggle to get back into the international setup with Ryan and Porter ahead of him now, he doesn't offer nearly enough.

irishbucsfan

Vinnie222 wrote: »

It was a open secret . I say the players are professional enough for it not to bother them . If anyone should be piss off it should be Zebo with his new club .

Zebo had to know that this interview would be published this week. It's too specific not to be.

That's the only problem I have with all of this. I have no issue at all with a guy wanting to play a different style to his coach or any of the other stuff, he's admirable in his honesty in all that as far as I'm concerned. And its not like he's been critical of Schmidt at all, the opposite is true.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

eh.. maybe...

But I'd have John Ryan ahead of Moore anyway. I'd say it's fairly likely Moore will struggle to get back into the international setup with Ryan and Porter ahead of him now, he doesn't offer nearly enough.

Hmmm...

Snippage is wonderful really. You doing Donal Trump impressions? :pac:

prawnsambo wrote: »

There is significant depth in that position now. But back then, Mike Ross was rapidly running out of steam and Tadhg Furlong was pretty much the only definite option to replace him.

Also, I know it's the Indo, but...

Marty Moore's Leinster departure in doubt follwing Joe Schmidt intervention.

connachta

Again Beirne did excel yesterday vs Bath.
He should be in the squad right now to prepare RWC 2019. No reason to wait.
It's not like he's signed for Scarlets next season. Ok he won't have 1, and only 1, IRFU rest and recovery period he should have, and then?

Wegians89

In a scenario where Bernie comes to Ireland preforms similarly for munster. What locks do you bring to WC, believe kleyn will be qualified by then?
I’d go with Henderson Ryan Dillane Bernie Toner? Treadwell and kleyn are two solid options could have Cillian Gallagher with Connacht who seems to be an amazing prospect but playing 6 atm, don’t tho k Gallagher would be ready but just mentioning him as a potential bolster similarly for the young munster lad wychesterly

prawnsambo

connachta wrote: »

Again Beirne did excel yesterday vs Bath.
He should be in the squad right now to prepare RWC 2019. No reason to wait.
It's not like he's signed for Scarlets next season. Ok he won't have 1, and only 1, IRFU rest and recovery period he should have, and then?

If he was picked for the 6N squad, it would be tough on Scarlets. Even if he were free to play for them, he'd be missing for their training sessions. And they have four games during the 6N, two against Leinster. You'd imagine there'd be some screams of outrage at one of their best players perhaps not being available or properly prepared for games against Irish rivals.

connachta

prawnsambo wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

Again Beirne did excel yesterday vs Bath.
He should be in the squad right now to prepare RWC 2019. No reason to wait.
It's not like he's signed for Scarlets next season. Ok he won't have 1, and only 1, IRFU rest and recovery period he should have, and then?

If he was picked for the 6N squad, it would be tough on Scarlets. Even if he were free to play for them, he'd be missing for their training sessions. And they have four games during the 6N, two against Leinster. You'd imagine there'd be some screams of outrage at one of their best players perhaps not being available or properly prepared for games against Irish rivals.

We shouldn't care about this.
20 games before RWC. Beirne needs 10 caps/all camps to be ready. Time to end ignoring him. It's been one and a half year now. No more reason to do so, he's back in Ireland in 4 months

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Hmmm...

Snippage is wonderful really. You doing Donal Trump impressions? :pac:



Also, I know it's the Indo, but...

Marty Moore's Leinster departure in doubt follwing Joe Schmidt intervention.

Yeah, an Independent article about how Marty Moore is no longer moving to Wasps isn't a great source.

At the time there were multiple rumours here as to what went down and I really don't think Joe Schmidt sat him down to try and convince him to stay at any point.

Wegians89

Bernie won’t be involved this 6 nations because he won’t be available to train with Irish squad full time, its the same reason why Zebo and the likes won’t get picked when they’re abroad. I know Bernie’s situation is slightly different with him coming back to Ireland next season but making it ok for Bernie to be with squad to suit the scarlets would be hypocritical for not picking Zebo when he’s in Paris. You’ll see him in the summer at the earliest

Synode

Wegians89 wrote: »

Bernie won’t be involved this 6 nations because he won’t be available to train with Irish squad full time, its the same reason why Zebo and the likes won’t get picked when they’re abroad. I know Bernie’s situation is slightly different with him coming back to Ireland next season but making it ok for Bernie to be with squad to suit the scarlets would be hypocritical for not picking Zebo when he’s in Paris. You’ll see him in the summer at the earliest

His name is Beirne for the love of God

irishbucsfan

Great article from DOC on Rob Kearney

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-kearney-not-jordan-larmour-still-better-choice-at-full-back-rbpqdsz0j?shareToken=8091b1cd6c86fd24f771f7543c7ac85e

Former Former

There's another big interview with Zebo in today's Times if anyone is interested

Wegians89

Synode wrote: »

His name is Beirne for the love of God

Sorry for that won’t happen again

Squidgy Black

Scarlets won't release Beirne for Irish training camps. I'm sure there's already been discussions about his international future when he comes back. I wouldn't be in a huge rush to push him into the setup as of yet. Bed him in with the AIs, if he performs there then there's the 6N and the friendlies before the RWC.

Plenty of game time for him to prove he can play as part of the squad.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great article from DOC on Rob Kearney

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-kearney-not-jordan-larmour-still-better-choice-at-full-back-rbpqdsz0j?shareToken=8091b1cd6c86fd24f771f7543c7ac85e

Defensively he is a machine, missed tackles an aberration

Ok Donnacha.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great article from DOC on Rob Kearney

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-kearney-not-jordan-larmour-still-better-choice-at-full-back-rbpqdsz0j?shareToken=8091b1cd6c86fd24f771f7543c7ac85e

That's a brilliant article!!

Burkie1203

connachta wrote: »

Again Beirne did excel yesterday vs Bath.
He should be in the squad right now to prepare RWC 2019. No reason to wait.
It's not like he's signed for Scarlets next season. Ok he won't have 1, and only 1, IRFU rest and recovery period he should have, and then?

Beirne will travel to aus in June. Best time for him to come in. In 6n he is only available for 1 week before 3 of the games and could be playing for scarlets on the weekends prior to games 1, 3 & 4. He is signed to Scarlets this season and they don't have to release him for Ireland duty outside the window.

What if he plays for Scarlets and turns up at carton house with a knock?

Thats not going to help Ireland and whether you like it or not the 6n is a huge part of what funds the provinces and we are always going do our very best in the 6n. Like it or not thats the reality and for most fans i would say agree with that.

Ireland took 9 or 10 guys to the last rwc (original squad and call ups) who had 12 caps or less. Out of a total of 35 players who were called upon. Some only had 3 or 4 (Furlong, White). We dont need to cap guys just so they can have 10+ caps by september 2019. We need to build a squad and we are doing that pretty well right now.

sydthebeat

"Bernie"

That's brilliant

connachta

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Scarlets won't release Beirne for Irish training camps. I'm sure there's already been discussions about his international future when he comes back. I wouldn't be in a huge rush to push him into the setup as of yet. Bed him in with the AIs, if he performs there then there's the 6N and the friendlies before the RWC.

Plenty of game time for him to prove he can play as part of the squad.

We don't care if he misses a bit of camp. Is it better to give him a bit of gametime and partial training time asap, or nothing?
I don't get that logic...

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Ok Donnacha.

You're actually conforming to what he said in that article. You remember those missed tackles because they're so rare.

prawnsambo

connachta wrote: »

We don't care if he misses a bit of camp. Is it better to give him a bit of gametime and partial training time asap, or nothing?
I don't get that logic...

He's not the only one at those training camps. It's not just his progression that's being disrupted by an in again, out again situation.

Squidgy Black

connachta wrote: »

We don't care if he misses a bit of camp. Is it better to give him a bit of gametime and partial training time asap, or nothing?
I don't get that logic...

These aren't the AIs we're talking about. They're not going to throw him in with little training "just to get a bit of gametime". We're not short at lock with Henderson/Toner/Ryan/Dillane. I don't see the point in him taking reps/gametime away from players who are actually available to Joe, just for the sake of it.

Buer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Beirne will travel to aus in June. Best time for him to come in.

And who from Toner, Ryan, Dillane and Henderson is staying in Ireland to accommodate him?

Beirne will be capped but it will take place when Schmidt both wants and needs to bring him in.

The fact is, Beirne is still far from certain to even make the RWC squad at this point. He has one season at Munster to force his way in over guys who have established themselves in the Irish set up and shown they can deliver. He has the ability but he won't be a priority due to solid options already being available.

connachta

He's one of the best lock in Pro14. He's proven. It's a fact. Having him far from Ireland for a few weeks shouldn't make some blind or needlessly cautious.
The only uncertaincy is how he'll fit in the Irish squad. That's why he should be involved asap

sydthebeat

connachta wrote: »

He's one of the best lock in Pro14. He's proven. It's a fact. Having him far from Ireland for a few weeks shouldn't make some blind or needlessly cautious.
The only uncertaincy is how he'll fit in the Irish squad. That's why he should be involved asap

Playing well for your club gets you into the camp.
What you do in there gets you into the squad.

That's an irrefutable fact at this stage.

He's certainly putting his hand up for selection for the camp after he joins munster, due to his last 1 1/2 seasons.... But to be touting him for a rwc squad place at this stage of his career is just wishful thinking really.

prawnsambo

connachta wrote: »

He's one of the best lock in Pro14. He's proven. It's a fact. Having him far from Ireland for a few weeks shouldn't make some blind or needlessly cautious.
The only uncertaincy is how he'll fit in the Irish squad. That's why he should be involved asap

His involvement at this stage would have everything being slowed down so that he can catch up. Right before and during a six nations. Everybody else has had a summer tour, autumn internationals and the December camp to hone their preparation for this. And a guy, who can't be present for all of it, gets parachuted into the middle and spends his days trying to catch up with everyone else.

It makes absolutely no sense. You're willing to sacrifice the progression of everyone else for the sake of giving a lad a 'look' at one of the most important training camps of the season.

prawnsambo

Burkie1203

connachta wrote: »

He's one of the best lock in Pro14. He's proven. It's a fact. Having him far from Ireland for a few weeks shouldn't make some blind or needlessly cautious.
The only uncertaincy is how he'll fit in the Irish squad. That's why he should be involved asap

He has proven he is very good in the Scarlets system where they play and train together week in week out. He returns back to the Ireland set up (provinces) at the end of this season.

Nothing is proven or fact as you put it.

We have 5 games coming up. There is a limited scope for preparation for those games mixed with player welfare rest and some guys getting gametime at the provinces. The French and English unions fought for quite a number of years to have coaches getting access to players in their national sides for pre 6n prep and rest periods mid tournament. There is a reason for that. And its simple. Prep time is seriously limited and the very best use of it has to be made.

Beirne has done very well for scarlets and is on an upward curve in his career. And I am sure he will get a chance with Ireland. But integrating a new guy on a part time basis in a 6n isnt viable unless its in an injury crisis.

The 6n will always be of great importance to the IRFU. You might not like that and are unwilling to accept it. But thats reality of life.

There is an ideal training number, Joe mentioned it a few years ago where anymore and training becomes drawn out and unproductive. Adding players unnecessarily at this stage just hinders the group as a whole.

Deal with it

Bloody hell you'd think having Beirne in the squad would be sabotage reading the comments above. Bizarre stuff. I don't think he'll be called up this time, mainly because he's still abroad and his availability isn't guaranteed for the whole camp, but if he arrives at Munster and keeps playing like he did last night he'll be at the RWC.

sydthebeat

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Bloody hell you'd think having Beirne in the squad would be sabotage reading the comments above.

Would you really?
Bizarre hyperbole by you.....

Its obvious why he won't be involved in the 6n squad, that's all that's being discussed above.

connachta

Burkie1203 wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

He's one of the best lock in Pro14.  He's proven. It's a fact. Having him far from Ireland for a few weeks shouldn't make some blind or needlessly cautious.
The only uncertaincy is how he'll fit in the Irish squad. That's why he should be involved asap

He has proven he is very good in the Scarlets system where they play and train together week in week out. He returns back to the Ireland set up (provinces) at the end of this season.

Nothing is proven or fact as you put it.

We have 5 games coming up.  There is a limited scope for preparation for those games mixed with player welfare rest and some guys getting gametime at the provinces. The French and English unions fought for quite a number of years to have coaches getting access to players in their national sides for pre 6n prep and rest periods mid tournament. There is a reason for that. And its simple. Prep time is seriously limited and the very best use of it has to be made.

Beirne has done very well for scarlets and is on an upward curve in his career. And I am sure he will get a chance with Ireland. But integrating a new guy on a part time basis in a 6n isnt viable unless its in an injury crisis.

The 6n will always be of great importance to the IRFU. You might not like that and are unwilling to accept it. But thats reality of life.

There is an ideal training number,  Joe mentioned it a few years ago where anymore and training becomes drawn out and unproductive. Adding players unnecessarily at this stage just hinders the group as a whole.

Deal with it

Yeah that's the problem. Italy in the 6 nations seems to matter more than Australia this summer. Money money. But certainly not pleasant

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Would you really?
Bizarre hyperbole by you.....

Its obvious why he won't be involved in the 6n squad, that's all that's being discussed above.

I can read thanks. I'm not sure you have read the posts though.

"Hinders the group as a whole"
"Sacrifice the progression of everyone else" - seriously, what?

thomond2006

If Italy was game 4 and Ireland were 3/3 I could envisage some rotation. Since it's game 2 I can't see it happening.

Wales are littered with injuries but may have some back by game 4 and we've seen plenty years where they have performed in the Six Nations despite a torrid November.

It's going to be a challenge for Beirne. Jean Kleyn is an automatic starter at 4 for Munster and while Billy Holland isn't a top level player he's the experienced head in the front five and very dependable. Kleyn qualifies for RWC 2019 as well.

sydthebeat

connachta wrote: »

Yeah that's the problem. Italy in the 6 nations seems to matter more than Australia this summer. Money money. But certainly not pleasant

What the hell has money got to do with anything?

If you can't see why Italy in the 6n means more than Australia in the summer then I'm afraid that says a lot about your understanding of international rugby.