Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Faugheen

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He didn't call Joe out. Come on let's stay somewhat close to the realm of sanity.

He called Joe a "super coach".

Then said he couldn't play in such a rigid structure.

Whether he's right or not is irrelevant. What was said between him and Joe should have stayed behind closed doors. Joe will be asked questions about it when the 6N comes around and you can be sure he won't answer them, because he shouldn't have to.

Zebo no doubt is talented, but one of the best players for Ireland? Not even close. Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Henshaw, O'Mahony and Earls are just 6 names I have in the team before him. However judging by that interview he seems to have this perception that he should be held in the same regard as Sexton when he knows full well why Sexton continued to get picked.

awec

Faugheen wrote: »

Then said he couldn't play in such a rigid structure.

Whether he's right or not is irrelevant. What was said between him and Joe should have stayed behind closed doors. Joe will be asked questions about it when the 6N comes around and you can be sure he won't answer them, because he shouldn't have to.

Zebo no doubt is talented, but one of the best players for Ireland? Not even close. Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Henshaw, O'Mahony and Earls are just 6 names I have in the team before him. However judging by that interview he seems to have this perception that he should be held in the same regard as Sexton when he knows full well why Sexton continued to get picked.

You’d pick Furlong on the wing aye?

irishbucsfan

Faugheen wrote: »

Then said he couldn't play in such a rigid structure.

Whether he's right or not is irrelevant. What was said between him and Joe should have stayed behind closed doors. Joe will be asked questions about it when the 6N comes around and you can be sure he won't answer them, because he shouldn't have to.

Zebo no doubt is talented, but one of the best players for Ireland? Not even close. Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Henshaw, O'Mahony and Earls are just 6 names I have in the team before him. However judging by that interview he seems to have this perception that he should be held in the same regard as Sexton when he knows full well why Sexton continued to get picked.

You are blowing this out of all proportion.

Sexton said similar about Kidney, about how he was having to adapt to a coach who put more emphasis on territory than possession. As for why Sexton continued to get picked, Schmidt himself said he might not if he left today, so he certainly hasn't put him in a different bracket.

It's absolutely meaningless. Just a press cycle playing everyone for dummys. Noone really gives a **** about it and by the time he's available for selection again it'll be long forgotten.

The only real issue I'd have is the Racing announcement, should not have happened this week.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You are blowing this out of all proportion.

Sexton said similar about Kidney, about how he was having to adapt to a coach who put more emphasis on territory than possession. As for why Sexton continued to get picked, Schmidt himself said he might not if he left today, so he certainly hasn't put him in a different bracket.

It's absolutely meaningless. Just a press cycle playing everyone for dummys. Noone really gives a **** about it and by the time he's available for selection again it'll be long forgotten.

The only real issue I'd have is the Racing announcement, should not have happened this week.

Should not have happened until the end of the season if they'd observed the Top 14 rules.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Should not have happened until the end of the season if they'd observed the Top 14 rules.

I don't think the rules are that straightforward

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think the rules are that straightforward

Hard to know since they've been more honoured in the breach.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He didn't call Joe out. Come on let's stay somewhat close to the realm of sanity.

He called Joe a "super coach".

Yes he did, but in the very next breath he says that he has told Joe to his face that "I could not play in such a rigid system. I can't play like that."

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Yes he did, but in the very next breath he says that he has told Joe to his face that "I could not play in such a rigid system. I can't play like that."

How on earth is that calling Schmidt out?

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Yes he did, but in the very next breath he says that he has told Joe to his face that "I could not play in such a rigid system. I can't play like that."

Yeah, but where did he call him out?

Former Former

awec wrote: »

How on earth is that calling Schmidt out?

Sorry. I'm not implying he's calling Joe out for a bout of fisticuffs or pistols at dawn. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

He is publicly criticising the coach that he claims he still hopes to play for.

Happy to clarify.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Sorry. I'm not implying he's calling Joe out for a bout of fisticuffs or pistols at dawn. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

He is publicly criticising the coach that he claims he still hopes to play for.

Happy to clarify.

Noone is claiming you are doing that. He hasn't criticised the coach at all.

It's a conflict of styles. That doesn't mean he's criticising him. It's half a breath after he just called him a super coach.

Faugheen

awec wrote: »

You’d pick Furlong on the wing aye?

You clearly didn't see his step on Cipriani vs Wasps last year

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone is claiming you are doing that. He hasn't criticised the coach at all.

It's a conflict of styles. That doesn't mean he's criticising him. It's half a breath after he just called him a super coach.

When a player says he prefers playing for his club because he doesn't have the "chains" that he has at national level, then it's not exactly high praise. Then he calls him a super coach. Then he says he can't play under Joe's system. There's a fair bit of specific criticism in there, sandwiching a very generic compliment.

And Zebo may well be right but he's utterly deluding himself if he thinks that he's not harming whatever slim hopes he had of a 6N call up.

As you say, it will be forgotten about by next week.

But then the following week the squad will be announced and the whole thing will resurface.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

When a player says he prefers playing for his club because he doesn't have the "chains" that he has at national level, then it's not exactly high praise. Then he calls him a super coach. Then he says he can't play under Joe's system. There's a fair bit of specific criticism in there, sandwiching a very generic compliment.

He's made a comment on the playing styles. You're going out of your way to take it as a criticism.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's made a comment on the playing styles. You're going out of your way to take it as a criticism.

A guy says he's in chains and can't play in an overly rigid system. I'm baffled as to how that could be construed as anything else.

I'm not making any comment on the validity of his criticism. We all know that Joe doesn't rate Zebo particularly highly so it's no surprise that Zebo doesn't agree with his methods. The only thing that surprises me is that he chose this week to say it, three days before he has to play for Munster against Racing and ten days before the 6N squad is announced.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

A guy says he's in chains and can't play in an overly rigid system. I'm baffled as to how that could be construed as anything else.

I'm not making any comment on the validity of his criticism. We all know that Joe doesn't rate Zebo particularly highly so it's no surprise that Zebo doesn't agree with his methods. The only thing that surprises me is that he chose this week to say it, three days before he has to play for Munster against Racing and ten days before the 6N squad is announced.

Saying that a coach likes to play in a certain way is not a criticism of the coach. It's just a statement of how you think that coach plays. There is no judgement made in that statement.

If you would like to point to anywhere that Zebo makes any sort of qualifying statement to support your claim here I'd be happy to see it. He does not. In fact he goes on to say he'd prefer to win than play nice rugby. The only qualifier he makes about Schmidt is that he's a super coach.

I think you would like it if Zebo had criticised the coach, and so you're connecting some dots that aren't there. Just as you always seem to go out of your way to stress that you think Schmidt doesn't rate Zebo. There's clearly a bit of a vendetta here. But in truth all he's done is say that he doesn't suit the way Schmidt wants to play but that Schmidt is a super coach.

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone is claiming you are doing that. He hasn't criticised the coach at all.

It's a conflict of styles. That doesn't mean he's criticising him. It's half a breath after he just called him a super coach.

For me it's not about what Zebo said, it's about the fact he said anything at all right now, while trying to actually get into the 6N squad. It was a dumb move. And it was a dumb move, because here are some headlines:

"Zebo: I couldn't play in rigid Ireland structure - RTE"
"Simon Zebo Reveals His Difficulties Of Playing For "Rigid" Joe Schmidt - Balls.ie"
"Ditched Zebo delivers a defiant Six Nations appeal to 'rigid' Schmidt - Indo"

Just...not a clever move.

irishbucsfan

MJohnston wrote: »

For me it's not about what Zebo said, it's about the fact he said anything at all right now, while trying to actually get into the 6N squad. It was a dumb move. And it was a dumb move, because here are some headlines:

"Zebo: I couldn't play in rigid Ireland structure - RTE"
"Simon Zebo Reveals His Difficulties Of Playing For "Rigid" Joe Schmidt - Balls.ie"
"Ditched Zebo delivers a defiant Six Nations appeal to 'rigid' Schmidt - Indo"

Just...not a clever move.

Yes, the timing of it is poor. Don't disagree with that at all. No doubt the agent has organised these interviews because they knew it'd get this sort of play amongst people who really want this to be a story, and agents are all about building profile.

I'm really just agreeing with your first point, which is that he hasn't said anything really. It's just the media playing with people such as those in this thread who really want this to be more than it is.

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, the timing of it is poor. Don't disagree with that at all. No doubt the agent has organised these interviews because they knew it'd get this sort of play amongst people who really want this to be a story, and agents are all about building profile.

I'm really just agreeing with your first point, which is that he hasn't said anything really. It's just the media playing with people such as those in this thread who really want this to be more than it is.

Well he demonstrably has said something which is a worse decision than saying nothing.

I don't know, I just think there's a way to say something generically ambitious like "I'd love to get a chance in the Six Nations" and nothing else. But he choose to say more, and used the kind of language that was really easy for that media you mentioned to cherry pick and thus twist.

irishbucsfan

MJohnston wrote: »

Well he demonstrably has said something which is a worse decision than saying nothing.

I don't know, I just think there's a way to say something generically ambitious like "I'd love to get a chance in the Six Nations" and nothing else. But he choose to say more, and used the kind of language that was really easy for that media you mentioned to cherry pick and thus twist.

Well I think he's being a lot more realistic than that, he's not going to be playing in the 6 Nations... I don't think anyone thinks there's a chance he is do they? All he said on the subject is that he hoped he would, right after saying he feels its unfair that others have continued to be selected after announcing they were leaving.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saying that a coach likes to play in a certain way is not a criticism of the coach. It's just a statement of how you think that coach plays. There is no judgement made in that statement.

If you would like to point to anywhere that Zebo makes any sort of qualifying statement to support your claim here I'd be happy to see it. He does not. In fact he goes on to say he'd prefer to win than play nice rugby. The only qualifier he makes about Schmidt is that he's a super coach.

I think you would like it if Zebo had criticised the coach, and so you're connecting some dots that aren't there. Just as you always seem to go out of your way to stress that you think Schmidt doesn't rate Zebo. There's clearly a bit of a vendetta here. But in truth all he's done is say that he doesn't suit the way Schmidt wants to play but that Schmidt is a super coach.

Ah here.

It's a weak argument that relies on taking pot shots at the other guy.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Ah here.

It's a weak argument that relies on taking pot shots at the other guy.

There's as many pot shots there as there are criticisms of Joe Schmidt in Zebo's interview.

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I think he's being a lot more realistic than that, he's not going to be playing in the 6 Nations... I don't think anyone thinks there's a chance he is do they? All he said on the subject is that he hoped he would, right after saying he feels its unfair that others have continued to be selected after announcing they were leaving.

I actually thought there was more of a chance he'd play in the 6N than in the AIs, but I think there's no chance now.

Your first sentence suggests that you think he probably wouldn't have said what he said if there where was still a chance of him being picked - which I find a bit difficult to reconcile with the idea that he hasn't said anything negative.

I do think the bit about "winning ugly" right after talking about Schmidt was a really bad move, and I can definitely see why people are reading it as a burning bridges kind of comment - there's an implication in those sentences that Ireland are only winning ugly, intentional or not. If Zebo didn't mean it, he probably should avoid talking to the media, if he did mean it, it's not fantastic.

molloyjh

I simply don’t get a couple of things about the Zebo interview.

For starters he says it should be one rule for all. But all the most recent examples of people who have signed for foreign teams matches his case exactly. That’s just BS for a start.

And then he says that he has spoken to Joe about how he can’t play the way Joe wants, has gone public to say the same thing and still thinks he should get selected? Why would any coach select a guy who says he can’t do what he’s told and then goes telling everyone that he not only can’t do what he’s told, but also that he doesn’t like what he’s been asked to do? Either you play the way you’re told to or you don’t get selected. You can’t have it both ways.

The timing is bloody weird too. It seems to be all about making a bit of a splash. And not in a Venjur way. Why bother? What’s to be gained from it really?

Teferi

The 'I'm such a free spirit' shtick from Zebo is becoming boring at this stage. Silly comments to make, if he wanted more Ireland caps he shouldn't have moved to France when we have a healthy amount of competition in the back three. He's a good player but not essential to Ireland.

Interestingly, the only medal he has in his back pocket from his entire career is due to Joe Schmidt's 'rigid structure'.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I simply don’t get a couple of things about the Zebo interview.

For starters he says it should be one rule for all. But all the most recent examples of people who have signed for foreign teams matches his case exactly. That’s just BS for a start.

And then he says that he has spoken to Joe about how he can’t play the way Joe wants, has gone public to say the same thing and still thinks he should get selected? Why would any coach select a guy who says he can’t do what he’s told and then goes telling everyone that he not only can’t do what he’s told, but also that he doesn’t like what he’s been asked to do? Either you play the way you’re told to or you don’t get selected. You can’t have it both ways.

The timing is bloody weird too. It seems to be all about making a bit of a splash. And not in a Venjur way. Why bother? What’s to be gained from it really?

I don't think the timing is remotely surprising from a business sense. Munster are playing Racing so his press work will get play in two countries, and his agent is likely trying to line up commercial commitments for him after his arrival over there.

stephen_n

its_phil wrote: »

No comparison really. Copeland was playing for a mediocre Blues side, while Beirne is one of the best players for the best team in the Pro 14 over the past two seasons.

Also not claiming he should be brought in for the 6N. He’ll go to Australia and that’s the way it should be done.

What I mean is wait till he gets to Munster before trying to pick him for a 6N squad. Copeland was in a mediocre team, but doing reallly well, but couldn’t get a look in at Munster. Beirne is doing really well and yes he is performing at a higher level than Copeland. But not to the point that he needs to be rushed into squads, while playing in a different country. It’s just more of the shiny new toy syndrome that prevails around here.

The Rape of Lucretia

Teferi wrote: »

The 'I'm such a free spirit' shtick from Zebo is becoming boring at this stage.

Its shorthand for "I'm not really good enough to play a top level structured game that would really get the best out of my physical talents. I am less disciplined, and prefer to do my own thing rather than listen to top level coaching, even if it makes me a lesser player."

jacothelad

MJohnston wrote: »

It just seemed like a really stupidly unprofessional thing for a player to say, especially given the context of what he was trying to achieve by saying it (getting into the Six Nations squad, for example, yeah the first thing you want to do the is go off on one to the media about it).

And I don't think anyone sensible is saying Zebo is now rubbish, just that he's not particularly missed as a selection in the team.

I wonder is it a translation from French. The nuance and meaning may be more sympathetic than what we have seen.

its_phil

stephen_n wrote: »

What I mean is wait till he gets to Munster before trying to pick him for a 6N squad. Copeland was in a mediocre team, but doing reallly well, but couldn’t get a look in at Munster. Beirne is doing really well and yes he is performing at a higher level than Copeland. But not to the point that he needs to be rushed into squads, while playing in a different country. It’s just more of the shiny new toy syndrome that prevails around here.

Fully agreed

thomond2006

Earls looked very sharp today. I don't see him missing out on a starting role.

ionadnapokot

Huge. Billy V out of 6nations
Irreplaceable for English. That’s made up my mind. Ireland to clinch the slam in Twickers.

All aboard the Hype train
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/42682727

Stheno

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Huge. Billy V out of 6nations
Irreplaceable for English. That’s made up my mind. Ireland to clinch the slam in Twickers.

All aboard the Hype train
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/42682727

Is England our last game?

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Earls looked very sharp today. I don't see him missing out on a starting role.

Not being a smart arse but does anyone? Surely himself and Stockdale are seen as the starting wingers with RK at 15 and (I'm guessing) Conway at 23?

ionadnapokot

Stheno wrote: »

Is England our last game?

Oh yea. Paddy’s weekend!

prawnsambo

Stheno wrote: »

Is England our last game?

Yep. Paddy's day iirc.

Podge_irl

Stheno wrote: »

Is England our last game?

Yup. On Paddy's day I believe.

It's written in the stars.

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

Not being a smart arse but does anyone? Surely himself and Stockdale are seen as the starting wingers with RK at 15 and (I'm guessing) Conway at 23?

I’d say your right, but the back 3 is the only place where there is real room for someone to come in at the moment. Stockdale has I think nailed a spot and Earls I think always delivers on the wing both for Munster and Ireland, Kearney despite peoples reservations about him is pretty consistent and delivers exactly what joe wants. Conway looks to be in the driving seat for 23 after the autumn but for all that it’s the area on the pitch that I could see some major changes before the WC.

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

Not being a smart arse but does anyone? Surely himself and Stockdale are seen as the starting wingers with RK at 15 and (I'm guessing) Conway at 23?

He was as nailed on as Furlong or Sexton. Today just showed us why, he was electric.

Stockdale is less secure but there isn't a queue of contenders.

ionadnapokot

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Huge. Billy V out of 6nations
Irreplaceable for English. That’s made up my mind. Ireland to clinch the slam in Twickers.

All aboard the Hype train
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/42682727

Never one to celebrate injuries personally, would rather we beat them at full strength and the chances of us making it to that game without a few knocks of our own is infinitesimal. We've a few irreplaceables ourselves let's not forget.

ionadnapokot

Fair play to ya
We got Jonny covered!

andymx11

Bastareaud looking at a lengthy spell on the sidelines too...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/14/mathieu-bastareaud-six-nations-france-homophobic-slur

MattD

It's crazy that in another time the fact that players of the calibre of Scannell, Moore, Ruddock, Heaslip, Jackson, Payne, Zebo, Bowe etc are unavailable for selection would be causing major alarm bells and hand-wringing. But it still feels like we will be putting out a first choice team. Nice feeling to have.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Not being a smart arse but does anyone? Surely himself and Stockdale are seen as the starting wingers with RK at 15 and (I'm guessing) Conway at 23?

Former Former wrote: »

Stockdale is less secure but there isn't a queue of contenders.

clsmooth

Good shout. Wait til 3D printers can print organic matter #teamofmcfaddens

The Rape of Lucretia

.ak wrote: »

Some of those with prejudice will knock. But he really is in cracking form. I wouldnt discount his participation, but if he loses out, it is indicative of the depth we have in nearly all positions. Remember the dark wing days of the likes of Matt Mostyn and John MacWeeney anyone ?

I truly dont think Ireland has ever, ever, been anywhere near as strong in its depth. Even at stand off, where sure, we have a world level first choice, but even with Jackson having his troubles, we have the likes of Carbs, Byrne and Keatley who you feel could step up to the level without harming the whole.

Stheno

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Some of those with prejudice will knock. But he really is in cracking form. I wouldnt discount his participation, but if he loses out, it is indicative of the depth we have in nearly all positions. Remember the dark wing days of the likes of Matt Mostyn and John MacWeeney anyone ?

I truly dont think Ireland has ever, ever, been anywhere near as strong in its depth. Even at stand off, where sure, we have a world level first choice, but even with Jackson having his troubles, we have the likes of Carbs, Byrne and Keatley who you feel could step up to the level without harming the whole.

Byrne yes. Not sure on the other two

.ak

I'd have no issue with Ireland starting Carbs or Keatley tomorrow. So long as Murray is fit...

We're obviously a different animal without Johnny, but we atleast aren't a one trick pony.

clsmooth

Stheno wrote: »

Byrne yes. Not sure on the other two

Byrne is getting better and better. Very tidy player, has made huge strides in the last year and proving himself capable at European level. I think he's more consistent than Keatley who blows hot and cold within 80 minutes. I would say he's not too disimilar to Jackson in his style of play.

Clegg

Of all the up and coming 10's out there I still think Carbery will be Sexton's long term successor. Keep him fit, give him a bit of time in the jersey and watch magic happen.