Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

awec

mangobob wrote: »

I think its not so much a case of writing off a Grand Slam and saying we are not bothered if we win it. I would LOVE us to win it. Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not. Its THE prize, one that we would have given our left arm for on so many occasions.

I would agree with those who say the Grandslam is the cherry on top. To regard winning another championship as something that would be disappointing without the GS is devaluing it massively, imho. Winning the latter against England on the final day would be absolutely fantastic. But if we don't, I will still be DELIGHTED with the trophy.

Having said that, I completely get the argument that this team should be aiming for the slam. That is correct. We definitely are good enough to do it and that's what we should aspire to. But setting aspirational standards is one thing, downgrading the trophy as a runner up prize is another thing altogether.

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure. It is the greatest achievement available in the six nations. They even put rules in place to ensure it continues in this new bonus point era. This team is capable of winning a slam so I cannot agree with anyone who just decides they aren't bothered by it. Why on earth would you just settle for a championship when you can go one better?

If we win another championship and no slam it's certainly not a bad year but it'll be a bit disappointing. It's the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver that we can reasonably expect of him. The team is good enough, the coaches are good enough, let's get off our knees a bit and stop settling for "good enough" just because we used to be a bit rubbish and never won anything.

I'll still be delighted if we lose in Twickenham and come away with the championship, nobody is saying that is not worth talking about, I just take issue with people downplaying a GS already with two games to go and us as the only team unbeaten, as if they're already predicting an Ireland loss and want to play the expectations game.

The Rape of Lucretia

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

awec

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure

Sure it does. By definition. But only in the fine print. Like a GS with 4 bonus points outranks a GS with no bps.
But do we really care about that detail? Cherry on top is a good way to out it. To be the champion is the goal in sport. To be an all dominating champion is secondary. As long as you come out on top of the table, as better than the rest, how you did it, is by the way.

Buer

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

awec

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure it does. By definition. But only in the fine print. Like a GS with 4 bonus points outranks a GS with no bps.
But do we really care about that detail? Cherry on top is a good way to out it. To be the champion is the goal in sport. To be an all dominating champion is secondary. As long as you come out on top of the table, as better than the rest, how you did it, is by the way.

Obviously we do.

awec

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level???

We've had so many firsts under Schmidt and we're on the cusp of a third title in five years.

What part of that is NOT stepping up?

We've no right to a Grand Slam. They are very rare and England will likely be favourites for the last game.

It would be disappointing to lose the game, but there is no shame in it and certainly the coaches and team will have a lot more credit in the bank with another Championship win under their belts.

You would think we were picking up titles for fun in the years gone by. Spoiled by success a bit here lads.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

Professor Moriarty

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

Watching Ireland walking off the pitch having won the Championship but lost the match would be a great achievement for sure but a bit of an anti-climax. Beating Wales for the Grand Slam in 2009 was one of my top three sporting moments (as a fan). Our championship wins over the years, while very satisfying, didn't come close. Beating England in Twickenham for only our second Grand Slam in 70 years would be amazing.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

The focus right now should be a 5 point return from the Scotland game and going on the media sound bites that is exactly what they doing.

After that any kind of win against England would be utter glory.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

Last year too.

Eddie Jones was talking about his team achieving greatness in the build up to last years game and about how Ireland love spoiling parties.

There was certainly no "we're just happy to have the championship in the bag" stuff.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure. It is the greatest achievement available in the six nations. They even put rules in place to ensure it continues in this new bonus point era. This team is capable of winning a slam so I cannot agree with anyone who just decides they aren't bothered by it. Why on earth would you just settle for a championship when you can go one better?

If we win another championship and no slam it's certainly not a bad year but it'll be a bit disappointing. It's the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver that we can reasonably expect of him. The team is good enough, the coaches are good enough, let's get off our knees a bit and stop settling for "good enough" just because we used to be a bit rubbish and never won anything.

I'll still be delighted if we lose in Twickenham and come away with the championship, nobody is saying that is not worth talking about, I just take issue with people downplaying a GS already with two games to go and us as the only team unbeaten, as if they're already predicting an Ireland loss and want to play the expectations game.

A slam would be great but if we dont get it by losing to England in twickenham is it really a bad thing? Are people downplaying a GS?
Who isnt bothered by a slam? Its winning the title that matters not how the title is won.
It also isnt the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver we can reasonably expect of him. I think a proper world cup attempt and making semis is what we should be reasonably expecting of him and this side.

the perfect ten

Sangre wrote: »

I just can't see Scotland (with their away record) beating us (with our home record).

And one of these days Scotland might tear up their poor away record - just as they tore up their poor home record in recent years against England on Saturday!

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

The focus right now should be a 5 point return from the Scotland game and going on the media sound bites that is exactly what they doing.

After that any kind of win against England would be utter glory.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level???

We've had so many firsts under Schmidt and we're on the cusp of a third title in five years.

What part of that is NOT stepping up?

We've no right to a Grand Slam. They are very rare and England will likely be favourites for the last game.

It would be disappointing to lose the game, but there is no shame in it and certainly the coaches and team will have a lot more credit in the bank with another Championship win under their belts.

You would think we were picking up titles for fun in the years gone by. Spoiled by success a bit here lads.

We have stepped up from where we were.

But there is more to come, I don't think this Ireland team has reached it's potential yet. A Grand Slam would be the feather in Schmidt's cap for his Ireland tenure. A championship with this Ireland team is a great achievement but better riches are within reach.

I really don't care about years gone by. They are irrelevant.

dub_skav

I don't know, there would be something remarkably sweet about being able to pat the English fans on the head and congratulate them on a moral victory while we lift the trophy :pac:

thomond2006

Grand Slam or Joe Out

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great point, thanks for that. Haven't won in Twickenham since 2010 but suggesting it won't happen this tournament is now intentionally lowering expectations.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Grand Slam or Joe Out

We haven't won the championship in 2 years, but if we win it this year, it will definitely be a step back.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

We haven't won the championship in 2 years, but if we win it this year, it will definitely be a step back.

Said nobody ever.

Webbs

awec wrote: »

We have stepped up from where we were.

But there is more to come, I don't think this Ireland team has reached it's potential yet. A Grand Slam would be the feather in Schmidt's cap for his Ireland tenure. A championship with this Ireland team is a great achievement but better riches are within reach.

I really don't care about years gone by. They are irrelevant.

Whilst Ireland havent reached their potential I would argue that Scotland and Wales would have the greater upward curve to come.

This championship as I said before was all about Ire and Eng, the other teams were either in all sort of trouble France or on a change of style and patterns of play that would have their ups and downs (Scot, Wal). That left the 2 most settled teams to fight it out and I wouldnt expect it to be anything different come the last weekend.

thomond2006

#CrookedSchmidt Apologists already excusing a possible FAILING Grand Slam! So untrustworthy! Sad!

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Said nobody ever.

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Professor Moriarty

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Never a truer word.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Ah, I think it's just the recognition that going to Twickenham and getting a win is an event that's rarer than hen's teeth. Especially against an England team that are probably on the best run of form in the history of English rugby.

They got spanked roundly in Edinburgh and have to go to Paris next. But if (as is expected) they beat France there, then they may well have skin in the game.

Having said that, I think I'd prefer to meet an England team with the shackles on than the shackles off.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having unrealistic expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

FYP and it highlights where you have missed the point.

I think Ireland *can* beat England in Twickenham, but I would never expect them to do it. Expecting something means it's very likely to happen. That is not the case, and the bookies will likely have us to lose by between 3 and 5 points unless something goes badly wrong for England in the meantime.

I think Ireland can certainly play better, I think we can beat anyone and we have. But the fact that we are consistently excellent doesn't take away from the fact that other teams have their day too.

Even with a team on an upward curve, you can play top rugby and still lose in Twickenham against the world no.2 team.

irishbucsfan

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

At this stage a Championship win is to be expected. We are odds on for it. The big target now is the Grand Slam. And no, that absolutely does not mean I think it is very likely to happen.

awec

Irish Rugby is in the strongest position it's ever been in the history of the Six Nations. I don't mean within the context of the current tournament, I mean bigger picture. The team is quality from the top of the team sheet to the bottom, there are no weak links. We have more depth than ever before. We have a coaching setup that is familiar with success and who have shown themselves, by and large, to be tactically astute at test level.

It would, in my opinion, be a massive shame if Irish Rugby were to come through this period in it's history without a Grand Slam. Three championships in five years is certainly not to be sniffed at, but there will always be the feeling that something was left behind if we don't capture the ultimate achievement in the six nations.

It's certainly something to be bothered by IMO.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

At this stage a Championship win is to be expected. We are odds on for it. The big target now is the Grand Slam. And no, that absolutely does not mean I think it is very likely to happen.

Well that's pretty much exactly what I posted about earlier. I'd risk the championship at this stage for a shot at the slam, mostly because I think we've a very good shot at the Championship.

But there were posts that I was replying to suggesting that not winning a slam is a sign that we aren't able to step up further. I don't agree with that.

I think we can continue to improve and not necessarily win the slam. I wouldn't see it as a failure, just a disappointment.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

You're doing it again. Nobody is saying what you think they are saying.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's pretty much exactly what I posted about earlier. I'd risk the championship at this stage for a shot at the slam, mostly because I think we've a very good shot at the Championship.

But there were posts that I was replying to suggesting that not winning a slam is a sign that we aren't able to step up further. I don't agree with that.

I think we can continue to improve and not necessarily win the slam. I wouldn't see it as a failure, just a disappointment.

Well if we do go after the slam and we fail to achieve it, it is a failure and it is a sign that we weren't able to step up further. That's nothing to be afraid of, that's exactly where our targets should be set now.

kuang1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well if we do go after the slam and we fail to achieve it, it is a failure and it is a sign that we weren't able to step up further. That's nothing to be afraid of, that's exactly where our targets should be set now.

I think you mean it would be a sign that we weren't able to step up "as far as we possibly could have stepped up to."
We may still have stepped up though.

Pedantry I know.

irishbucsfan

kuang1 wrote: »

I think you mean it would be a sign that weren't able to step up "as far as we possibly could have stepped up to."
We may still have stepped up though.

Pedantry I know.

Well I mean it in the context of us going there with the Championship, it's really the only step up we could possibly make at that stage. Only other step would be a step down for a loss or for a draw... a step, eh, across the, eh, aisle?

kuang1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I mean it in the context of us going there with the Championship, it's really the only step up we could possibly make at that stage. Only other step would be a step down for a loss or for a draw... a step, eh, across the, eh, aisle?

A 2 step?
A draw would be a step up from our recent adventures in Twickenham and we'd be slamless.

irishbucsfan

kuang1 wrote: »

A 2 step?
A draw would be a step up from our recent adventures in Twickenham and we'd be slamless.

A draw would be weird. Noone knew what to do with the Lions draw.

A whole championship without a loss is an achievement but it'd be a killer at the time to come so close.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

Just to clarify, and I admit I phrased the initial post poorly, what I meant was that not winning the GS wouldn't bother me that much. That the title win would be a good achievement and, as per the bolded parts below, not winning the GS wouldn't take away from it for me. That's quite a bit away from not being bothered by the GS. Even if that is technically what I said.

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

prawnsambo

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Yes but that stat is skewed by the performance against Italy, we never seem to be able to score tries against teams like Wales.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but that stat is skewed by the performance against Italy, we never seem to be able to score tries against teams like Wales.

Somebody should tell Venjur that TRoL has hacked his account. :pac:

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Yea the five tries against Wales marks a huge improvement in this department. Long may it continue. We probably still left some tries behind us too.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Yea the five tries against Wales marks a huge improvement in this department. Long may it continue. We probably still left some tries behind us too.

Yeah. Though I suppose you could say that about all the 6N campaigns up to now.

But we finished a lot of 6N with try counts in single figures. I think in 2013 we only scored five. Iirc, the GS year was 12 or 13.

mangobob

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This is really the nub of the issue right here. The point is not whether it would be a massive achievement. OF course it would. No one is denying that at all. The point is about expectations.

Some posters are saying they would be disappointed by not winning the GS and it would be a failure, even if we win the trophy. Disappointment is a function of expectation, and by your own admission beating England in Twickenham is an unlikely occurrence. If something is unlikely, by definition you cannot expect it. Therefore I am not expecting a win, hence I wont regard a defeat there as a "failure". England were disappointed last year not just because they lost the Grandslam, but because they were absolutely expecting (and expected) to win it.

On the other hand, I am expecting us to beat Scotland at home, and if we do it well enough we will essentially be champions with 1 game left. At this point in time, we *should* win the trophy, and I certainly would be disappointed not to. THAT would be a failure in my view.

I also think there is a very subjective element to peoples attitudes. For those saying 4 out of 5 wins and a trophy would be disappointing, lets do a little thought experiment. Lets say we lost the first game, and then proceeded to win the last four, culminating with a hard fought win in Twickenham, maybe even a drop goal at the death to claim the trophy in the dying minutes. How many would feel disappointed with that? How many would feel that its a failure? Very few I would imagine, and yet its the same haul of 4 out of 5 wins and a Championship. Objectively both are equally successful accomplishments and should be regarded as such.

I think both sides on this debate are actually much more in agreement than it appears. I concur with almost everything Awec says about what this team are capable of, what their aspirations should be and I have zero doubt that Schmidt would love to have a GS to show for his time here. Our only points of difference are in our level of expectation and how we define success. I believe that we cant "expect" to beat England at Twickenham (although I believe we can win) and I believe winning the championship equals success. A GS would be a fantastic bonus, and I am certainly NOT saying I'm not bothered about. I would be ecstatic, as would everyone here. But having our name on the trophy come the 17th of March is enough for me to regard this season as a great success.

prawnsambo

mangobob wrote: »

This is really the nub of the issue right here. The point is not whether it would be a massive achievement. OF course it would. No one is denying that at all. The point is about expectations. <Snip>

That is a really excellent post. I think you've expressed what everybody (certainly I do) feels.

I snipped most of it since the original post should be read (and thanked many times) and not my quote of it.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Getting another 5 between the next two games is going to be difficult as well imo.

.ak wrote: »

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

They were 3 or 4 point favourites.

irishbucsfan

mangobob wrote: »

For those saying 4 out of 5 wins and a trophy would be disappointing

Can someone please point to anyone who has said this?

Serious straw manning going on today.

People are getting very, very confused about the idea that you can have a successful campaign but finish it off with a failure.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

If France show up at home to England and decide to front up physically it could be a brutal. Peyper is ref so it could be a complete free for all to be honest.

Still though, England would need to lose in France to drop the favourites tag for the final round and obviously we'd need to well beat Scotland.

irishbucsfan

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Getting another 5 between the next two games is going to be difficult as well imo.

Yeah. Given we don't generally ever score more than one try against good teams it's fairly expected.

However, I really think we could get 5 tries in these games. We could end up hammering Scotland IMO (don't think they'll be the same team who faced England) and England seem to be playing a little looser this year.

Although we could just as easily squeak out an abrasive 0-try win against England and I wouldn't give a ****e!

prawnsambo

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Well perhaps you'll be surprised to know that there haven't been many try counts above our best of 17. England got 29 and 23 in the very early noughties, but after that 18 was the best scored since then.

foxyladyxx

I am passionate about rugby and am passionate about my country. Only 5 wins will make me happy. I believe we can do it.

First up we deal with Scotland and we will win.