Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Shane Horgan pretty scathing of our defence on Second Captains. Doesn't seem particularly impressed by Stockdale.

Former Former

foxyladyxx wrote: »

I am passionate about rugby and am passionate about my country. Only 5 wins will make me happy. I believe we can do it.

First up we deal with Scotland and we will win.

Everyone believes we CAN do it.

The question is whether it's reasonable to be happy only if we beat the second best team in the world in their home ground.

Bridge93

if Facebook is to be believed, a win of any kind for us and loss of any kind for England in two weeks will see us go second in the world. The game at Twickenham of course is a more natural place this issue will be decided on a longer term basis than a single week

mangobob

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can someone please point to anyone who has said this?

Serious straw manning going on today.

Well, since you asked:

awec wrote: »

If we win another championship and no slam it's certainly not a bad year but it'll be a bit disappointing.

Then these which are semantically different but similar in sentiment:

Buer wrote: »

Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize? That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Watching Ireland walking off the pitch having won the Championship but lost the match would be a great achievement for sure but a bit of an anti-climax.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well if we do go after the slam and we fail to achieve it, it is a failure and it is a sign that we weren't able to step up further.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A whole championship without a loss is an achievement but it'd be a killer at the time to come so close.

foxyladyxx wrote: »

Only 5 wins will make me happy. I believe we can do it

The first quote from Awec literally describes it as "disappointing".

Then we have deflating and anti-climactic which are synonyms for disappointment. You yourself, while acknowledging that a championship would still be an achievement, characterise the failure to win a GS in Twickenham as "a failure" and "a killer" which are hardly different. Then one in which the poster says they would only be happy with 5 wins, ergo 4 would be disappointing.

What are you trying to argue here?

irishbucsfan

mangobob wrote: »

Well, since you asked:

Then these which are semantically different but similar in sentiment:

The first quote from Awec literally describes it as "disappointing".

Then we have deflating and anti-climactic which are synonyms for disappointment. You yourself, while acknowledging that a championship would still be an achievement, characterise the failure to win a GS in Twickenham as "a failure" and "a killer" which are hardly different. Then one in which the poster says they would only be happy with 5 wins, ergo 4 would be disappointing.

What are you trying to argue here?

Alright, fair enough awec did actually say it, although it's a bit of a contradiction with other stuff he said I'd say. The others (apart from the one that happened after my post) are not at all people saying they'd be disappointed with 4 wins and a Championship and it's a mischaracterisation, an intentional one, to attempt to use these posts to make that point.

I don't understand how you couldn't possibly understand my argument. Your satisfaction with the entire Championship is completely different to your satisfaction with a single game on the last day. You should be capable of sepurating the two.

(I left in a typo there for you)

Former Former

Bridge93 wrote: »

if Facebook is to be believed, a win of any kind for us and loss of any kind for England in two weeks will see us go second in the world. The game at Twickenham of course is a more natural place this issue will be decided on a longer term basis than a single week

This is correct (assuming we beat Scotland)

In fact, should England lose in Paris and we beat Scotland, we would be in second place even before the Twickenham game.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

This is correct (assuming we beat Scotland)

In fact, should England lose in Paris and we beat Scotland, we would be in second place even before the Twickenham game.

That would be exactly what they said :pac::D

joseywhales

Podge_irl wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

This is correct (assuming we beat Scotland)

In fact, should England lose in Paris and we beat Scotland, we would be in second place even before the Twickenham game.

That would be exactly what they said :pac::D

In fact, a win of any kind over England  will see us go second.
In fact, we only need to win and England to lose next round and we will be second in the world rankings.
In fact

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

That would be exactly what they said :pac::D

Dang, I forgot there was a gap week this week.

irishbucsfan

Don't worry, I read Podge's post and still didn't get it

Podge_irl

I only remember because bye weeks make me sad

Neil3030

Congratulations to us - Ireland are now officially the highest points scorers in Six Nations History

since the bonus points system was introduced in 2017

mangobob

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Alright, fair enough awec did actually say it, although it's a bit of a contradiction with other stuff he said I'd say.

Its not really that its a contradiction as such, its just that (as I understand him) he was saying that this is a great Irish team who are more than capable of winning the GS and that should be our benchmark. Thus winning the championship without a GS would be somewhat of an underachievement and we should not settle for that. I understand where he is coming from, its just I would argue that for me, the benchmark is the trophy and that setting a GS as the only standard for success devalues that. Maybe I just have lower standards :pac:

The others (apart from the one that happened after my post) are not at all people saying they'd be disappointed with 4 wins and a Championship and it's a mischaracterisation, an intentional one, to attempt to use these posts to make that point.

If I am mischaracterising them, I apologise. Its absolutely not my intention. I honestly interpreted those posts at the time (and even now on review) as meaning that if we win our first 4 matches and then fail to win a GS in Twickenham, it would be deflating and anti-climactic which in my mind means the same thing as disappointing. Which is fine. But I am certainly open to correction if I am misrepresenting them in any way.

I don't understand how you couldn't possibly understand my argument.

I thought I did understand it, since I actually agreed with most of it lol.

I simply disputed the part where you said I was straw manning for claiming that some people said they would disappointed with anything less than a GS. It seemed clear to me that that's what was being said.

As I read the thread there were two camps emerging. One camp felt that we should be setting our bar as high as possible and anything less than a slam would be a disappointment and to a degree, a failure, while the other camp believes that winning the trophy alone would be a success, and anything more would be a bonus. Both are perfectly valid positions, I just happen to agree with the latter.

(I left in a typo there for you)

Thanks...I guess lol. Well I can't complain. Looking back over my comments, the number of typos is worrying, especially given the fact that I actually reread them before posting

Podge_irl

**** it lads.

I got my eye on that 19 game winning streak record.

prawnsambo

Podge_irl wrote: »

**** it lads.

I got my eye on that 19 game winning streak record.

Is it not 19?

Ooooh, Ninja edit of the fastest kind. I am reaaaalllly impressed.

kuang1

Podge_irl wrote: »

**** it lads.

I got my eye on that 19 game winning streak record.

WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT....WHY!!!

*throws salt over shoulder*

Neil3030

kuang1 wrote: »

WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT....WHY!!!

*throws salt over shoulder*

Reminds me of when I was living in Italy, I accidentally dropped and smashed a large bottle of olive oil on a tile floor. My housemate from Calabria immediately told me not to do anything and then frantically called his mother. I'm thinking, wow, I know olive oil is a pain to clean up, maybe he's just calling his mam to make sure we do this the best way. He hung up the phone, grabbed the box of sea-salt and dumped the whole thing onto the oil spillage. I asked what that does to help clean the oil up, he replied, "nothing, but IT WILL SAVE YOUR SOUL".

Yeah apparently it's a big superstition down there - smash a bottle of oil, you are jinxed for life, but pouring salt on it will save you.

Burkie1203

Its quite feasible that there is no more away wins in this 6n, excluding Italy. Which would mean our win in Paris would be the only other away win

Was a fairly similar thing last year with England's win in Cardiff the only away win excluding Italy.

A slam would be great. Think its unlikely. If we dont win the title it would be a huge let down.

bilston

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Its quite feasible that there is no more away wins in this 6n, excluding Italy. Which would mean our win in Paris would be the only other away win

Was a fairly similar thing last year with England's win in Cardiff the only away win excluding Italy.

A slam would be great. Think its unlikely. If we dont win the title it would be a huge let down.

Not winning the title from here would be a failure as it would almost certainly involve losing to Scotland, or narrowly beating Scotland and getting hammered by England.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Not winning the title from here would be a failure as it would almost certainly involve losing to Scotland, or narrowly beating Scotland and getting hammered by England.

What he's saying is if there are no more away wins, that means Scotland lose to us, France beat England and England beat us. That adds up to a championship win for us but no GS.

Neil3030

There have actually been 8 Grand Slams in the 18 years of the Six Nations - one for us, two for England and France, and 3 for Wales. I suppose when you factor in the cyclical nature of teams peaking and troughing, combined with the home and away schedules alternating, it makes sense; basically quite often one side will hit a peak, and at the same time get a nice schedule. So they are rare for individual teams, but not rare for the tournament, if that makes sense.

ionadnapokot

Neil3030 wrote: »

There have actually been 8 Grand Slams in the 18 years of the Six Nations - one for us, two for England and France, and 3 for Wales. I suppose when you factor in the cyclical nature of teams peaking and troughing, combined with the home and away schedules alternating, it makes sense; basically quite often one side will hit a peak, and at the same time get a nice schedule. So they are rare for individual teams, but not rare for the tournament, if that makes sense.

Last years 6N schedule was as good as it gets for Ireland.
& I would say that this Irish team Is not at its peak (e.g. chronic defense, injured THead and SOB) with a difficult schedule. Of all the Joe Schmidt 6N campaigns this would be the most unlikely of Championship campaigns to date. As for a Grand Slam? Le Drop from the Gods and a get out jail intercept would indicate that this team are “whistling past the graveyard”

Former Former

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Last years 6N schedule was as good as it gets for Ireland.
& I would say that this Irish team Is not at its peak (e.g. chronic defense, injured THead and SOB) with a difficult schedule. Of all the Joe Schmidt 6N campaigns this would be the most unlikely of Championship campaigns to date. As for a Grand Slam? Le Drop from the Gods and a
get out jail intercept would indicate that this team are “whistling past the graveyard”

Do you mean Stockdale? We were already ahead.

prawnsambo

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Last years 6N schedule was as good as it gets for Ireland.
& I would say that this Irish team Is not at its peak (e.g. chronic defense, injured THead and SOB) with a difficult schedule. Of all the Joe Schmidt 6N campaigns this would be the most unlikely of Championship campaigns to date. As for a Grand Slam? Le Drop from the Gods and a get out jail intercept would indicate that this team are “whistling past the graveyard”

Funny, but that's exactly how it was in 2009. Last game, a drop goal to seal it. We scored only 12 tries in the entire campaign but only let in 3. But we only beat England by a point and Wales by two. Scotland and France were 7 and 9 point games.

Schedule was almost the same too except for the obvious switch of away and home fictures. France first, then Italy. Wales and England swapped places and Scotland were fourth up.

ionadnapokot

Former Former wrote: »

Do you mean Stockdale? We were already ahead.

I do! Yes we were ahead but....sorry.what do you mean?

ionadnapokot

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Last years 6N schedule was as good as it gets for Ireland.
& I would say that this Irish team Is not at its peak (e.g. chronic defense, injured THead and SOB) with a difficult schedule. Of all the Joe Schmidt 6N campaigns this would be the most unlikely of Championship campaigns to date. As for a Grand Slam? Le Drop from the Gods and a get out jail intercept would indicate that this team are “whistling past the graveyard”

We came joint last in 2013 so winning it in 2014 would have been pretty unlikely, and it was also the same schedule as this year. This is Schmidt's fifth season in charge, if we're getting less likely instead of more likely to win it then something has gone very wrong.

ionadnapokot

prawnsambo wrote: »

Funny, but that's exactly how it was in 2009. Last game, a drop goal to seal it. We scored only 12 tries in the entire campaign but only let in 3. But we only beat England by a point and Wales by two. Scotland and France were 7 and 9 point games.

Schedule was almost the same too except for the obvious switch of away and home fictures. France first, then Italy. Wales and England swapped places and Scotland were fourth up.

I think 2009 campaign is very different for many of the reasons you have highlighted. I wouldn’t say we got out of jail in any of the games before Cardiff.
And we never had to use a term such as “work-ons” to describe ****e defense. what I wouldn’t give for a Less Kiss narrow defense led by BOD right now!

irishbucsfan

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I wouldn’t say we got out of jail in any of the games before Cardiff.

I think your memory of 2009 must be very sketchy!

I still get nervous remembering that England game

ionadnapokot

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

We came joint last in 2013 so winning it in 2014 would have been pretty unlikely, and it was also the same schedule as this year. This is Schmidt's fifth season in charge, if we're getting less likely instead of more likely to win it then something has gone very wrong.

Logic is a bit slanted there I think!
Grand Slams usually are dictated by schedule and injuries. Not by how many years head coach is in charge.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think your memory of 2009 must be very sketchy!

I still get nervous remembering that England game

Jesus, that England game. Probably the closest I've ever seen to one player dragging a team over the line in rugby.

We were not good for most of that tournament. But we won - so who cares!

Buer

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

We came joint last in 2013 so winning it in 2014 would have been pretty unlikely, and it was also the same schedule as this year. This is Schmidt's fifth season in charge, if we're getting less likely instead of more likely to win it then something has gone very wrong.

Teams evolve and go through transitional phases. It's almost inevitable that a team will eventually become less likely to win the tournament. Look at Gatland's Welsh teams, for example. GS in 2008 before finishing 4th in three consecutive years as he phased out guys like Stephen Jones, Martyn Williams, Tom Shanklin etc.

There's a similar level of turnover from 2015 to 2018 for the Irish team. Mike Ross, POC, Heaslip, Bowe etc. are all gone from the set up. 10 players from the 23 that featured in our final game of 2015 are no longer available due to retirement/moving abroad (and two more unavailable through injury).

I'm not sure we're making the most of the talent at our disposal but the results have been massively impressive for such a turnover of critical personnel.

Former Former

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I do! Yes we were ahead but....sorry.what do you mean?

I guess I'm not sure I'd class it as "get out of jail" when you're three points up, clock is in the red and your opponent has to go for the hail mary play from inside their own half.

prawnsambo

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I think 2009 campaign is very different for many of the reasons you have highlighted. I wouldn’t say we got out of jail in any of the games before Cardiff.
And we never had to use a term such as “work-ons” to describe ****e defense. what I wouldn’t give for a Less Kiss narrow defense led by BOD right now!

Well as others have said, England was a very close win. Only for BOD etc.

But apart from the law changes that have happened between now and then, that was a very settled Ireland squad with practically no injury issues throughout the campiagn. The only one that I can think of was D'Arcy and he was back before the end of the campaign. The starting XV on day one was almost identical to the starting XV on the last day with the sole exception of D'Arcy being swapped with Paddy Wallace.

If those guys had 'work-ons', I'd be very surprised. Although I think Paddy Wallace might have had something to work on around the ruck area

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think your memory of 2009 must be very sketchy!

I still get nervous remembering that England game

The 2009 GS was as tight as possible. We were losing to Scotland after 50 minutes and and only won by a single score in the end.

We really got the rub against Wales. If it wasn't for a shocker of a kick on the full from Stephen Jones and an early injury to Lee Byrne, I don't think we'd have won the match.

thomond2006

That England game in 2009 has to rank as one of the worst games to watch that Ireland actually won.

Professor Moriarty

Podge_irl wrote: »

Jesus, that England game. Probably the closest I've ever seen to one player dragging a team over the line in rugby.

We were not good for most of that tournament. But we won - so who cares!

There's only one Ginger McLoughlin.

Buer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There's only one Ginger McLoughlin.

I don't think George Clancy could take more than one of him.

Would we have won the championship in 2009 if Jones had made that kick?

Podge_irl

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Would we have won the championship in 2009 if Jones had made that kick?

Yes, don't want to think about how that would have felt. First championship in decades but such a ****ty way to win it.

stephen_n

Winning a grand slam in a year we are playing in Twickenham and Paris is something that has been close to inconceivable in my lifetime. The fact we will be even playing for it, should we beat Scotland on Saturday week is brilliant and a testimony to how good we have become. I hope we have the championship sewn up going to Twickenham, it might relieve some of the presssure on that game. England haven’t looked good so far, not just the Scottish game, but against Wales too. Their game against the French will tell a lot, but we might be going there on Paddy’s day reasonably confident. No GS won’t reflect badly on the team, but it will definitely be a missed opportunity at this stage.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

No GS won’t reflect badly on the team, but it will definitely be a missed opportunity at this stage.

I think this is fair. I really would like us to win the Slam but another championship would be fantastic. Has to be said though losing the England game but winning the championship would be a bit weird.

Winning 3 6Ns from 5 attempts would be an unparalleled achievement for an Irish coach too.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

Winning a grand slam in a year we are playing in Twickenham and Paris is something that has been close to inconceivable in my lifetime. The fact we will be even playing for it, should we beat Scotland on Saturday week is brilliant and a testimony to how good we have become. I hope we have the championship sewn up going to Twickenham, it might relieve some of the presssure on that game. England haven’t looked good so far, not just the Scottish game, but against Wales too. Their game against the French will tell a lot, but we might be going there on Paddy’s day reasonably confident. No GS won’t reflect badly on the team, but it will definitely be a missed opportunity at this stage.

England haven't been convincing since the Australian tour in my opinion. They looked vulnerable all through the six nations last year bar the Scotland game and the Italy game showcased a glaring inability to adapt on the field.

In 2016 they were invincible and to be honest they made the grand slam look very easy. Only Wales came close to troubling them. It's the most dominant any team has been in the tournament in a good while, certainly more convincing than Wales in 2012. To then go on and whitewash Australia truly looked ominous for the balance of power of European rugby.

But then Last years tournament was no where near as impressive from the English as they lost to Ireland and came within a whisker to losing to both France and Wales.

Similar story during the summer albeit without their Lions I felt they made very hard work of that tour and didn't show much evolution in play style at all.

The form of the premiership teams can not be discounted here either. Being frank about it, a good few of the Premiership teams were as bad as the Italian teams ever were in this years competition. It was a spectacle of capitulation.

I'm not sure if the raw materials are there at the moment for Eddie Jones but I think and have said it before that the 2016 result was a combination of years of technical improvement under Lancaster combined with a more relentless coaching setup under Jones resulting in a perfect storm of performances.

The problem now is for Jones to get his team playing smart whilst also having that confidence to play and dominate.

France could be a very sticky place to go for a team that's just taken a proper pasting from the Scots in a match they would have fully expected to win.

If England find themselves in a low scoring dog fight at 60 minutes it could be the best or the worst thing to happen to them under Jones.

I think that 4 or 5 year extension Jones got before the six nations is about to be made look like a bad bit of business to be honest.

I think a big part of the change in England has been that saracens have not been as domanent. When the saracens players where coming into camp winning all around them they looked unreal but now they are showing holes. I suspect billy v is as big a loss as they could have gotten also

Bouncer1234

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think your memory of 2009 must be very sketchy!

I still get nervous remembering that England game

My recollection is of a tight game and us struggling to make our superiority count much like the French game this year. I do recall ROG having an absolute shocker off the tee. He’d actually an up and down tournament IIRC. Had a terrible first half against Wales. What a backrow that year though. Wallace was at the peak of his powers. Ferris just coming through and Heaslip establishing himself as a Lions starter. He almost topped his French try against Italy.

molloyjh

I'd agree that England haven't looked great this year at all, but I think you're over egging it a bit Venjur. They comfortable beat both Australia and Argentina in the November series and in the 2017 6Ns put 61 points on a Scottish team that beat us. They struggled away to Wales, but then who doesn't? The France game was about the only result that was closer than it should have been. They may have expected to come to Dublin and win but that level of expectation is in no way objective. Coming to the home of one of the best teams in the world, like us in a few weeks time, should always be viewed as a "can do" rather than a "will do".

This year though they faded in and out of the Italy game quite badly, only really pulling away in the last 15 mins. They were lucky against Wales that the try that was got disallowed and really seemed to struggle with that game. And then obviously that bad loss to Scotland where they just looked a bit lost nearly. There are question marks over this English side, and it seems that without someone like Billy V they have a hard time enforcing their game plan on good opposition. But they still have a damn good squad there that could turn it around. The big question is can Jones make that happen?

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree that England haven't looked great this year at all, but I think you're over egging it a bit Venjur. They comfortable beat both Australia and Argentina in the November series and in the 2017 6Ns put 61 points on a Scottish team that beat us. They struggled away to Wales, but then who doesn't? The France game was about the only result that was closer than it should have been. They may have expected to come to Dublin and win but that level of expectation is in no way objective. Coming to the home of one of the best teams in the world, like us in a few weeks time, should always be viewed as a "can do" rather than a "will do".

This year though they faded in and out of the Italy game quite badly, only really pulling away in the last 15 mins. They were lucky against Wales that the try that was got disallowed and really seemed to struggle with that game. And then obviously that bad loss to Scotland where they just looked a bit lost nearly. There are question marks over this English side, and it seems that without someone like Billy V they have a hard time enforcing their game plan on good opposition. But they still have a damn good squad there that could turn it around. The big question is can Jones make that happen?

I'm really just trying to highlight the difference between the utter dominance of 2016 and what we've seen since.

It's odd, Ireland went on the rebuild in 2016 and Schmidt himself said top 3 would be a fair turnaround.

England had done the rebuilding before the World Cup and whilst that didn't go to plan, it bore serious fruit the following year. Part of that is most likely because teams like Ireland were starting a new cycle. Would have been the best time for them to play the All Blacks.

I'm hoping Scotland do similar this year by the way, beat a top 4 team at home and then get absolutely hosed away from home.

Sangre

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree that England haven't looked great this year at all, but I think you're over egging it a bit Venjur. They comfortable beat both Australia and Argentina in the November series and in the 2017 6Ns put 61 points on a Scottish team that beat us. They struggled away to Wales, but then who doesn't? The France game was about the only result that was closer than it should have been. They may have expected to come to Dublin and win but that level of expectation is in no way objective. Coming to the home of one of the best teams in the world, like us in a few weeks time, should always be viewed as a "can do" rather than a "will do".

This year though they faded in and out of the Italy game quite badly, only really pulling away in the last 15 mins. They were lucky against Wales that the try that was got disallowed and really seemed to struggle with that game. And then obviously that bad loss to Scotland where they just looked a bit lost nearly. There are question marks over this English side, and it seems that without someone like Billy V they have a hard time enforcing their game plan on good opposition. But they still have a damn good squad there that could turn it around. The big question is can Jones make that happen?

I think the biggest issue for England is that they are fielding an average backrow. Against Scotland they fielded one blindside, one lock and one unfit no.8. As a result they didn't get any quick ball and were second best in the rucks. Very hard to win a game when you lose the rucks.

stephen_n

Billy V would be a massive loss to any team, the lack of a genuine open side is a major issue too. Then behind the scrum, the Ford/Farrell thing works really well with plenty of front foot ball, but when they’re not getting that, it’s not great. Their scrum is not working well at all considering it’s makeup it should be dominating. Yet even the decimated Scottish front row managed to force a penalty off them. With a few changes that English team could be outstanding again but hopefully they won’t come before Paddy’s day.

Sangre

Sangre wrote: »

I think the biggest issue for England is that they are fielding an average backrow. Against Scotland they fielded one blindside, one lock and one unfit no.8. As a result they didn't get any quick ball and were second best in the rucks. Very hard to win a game when you lose the rucks.

It wasn't just that imo. It's the responsibility of the entire pack to clear out your own ball. They looked like they made a deliberate decision to commit as few as possible to their own rucks and Scotland reacted to that, and England in turn didn't react to Scotland's reaction.

stephen_n

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

It wasn't just that imo. It's the responsibility of the entire pack to clear out your own ball. They looked like they made a deliberate decision to commit as few as possible to their own rucks and Scotland reacted to that, and England in turn didn't react to Scotland's reaction.

I think the Italy game last year proved that England lack the on field leadership to react and adapt.