Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

the baby bull elephant

Deleted User wrote: »

mogwai81 wrote: »

I wonder has James Ryan's injury helped his progression in a roundabout way. I remember hearing that he looked a bit light and seemed to get out muscled in his B&I cup games for Leinster. On the Hard Yards podcast I think it was Mike McCarthy who said he had put on some serious muscle while out injured.
A similar programme during pre-season could be a big help to Ross Molony, continuing on from the work he did during the season.

Size doesn't equal power, but he's been bigger than a lot of internationals for the last two years. He's a freak given how filled out his frame is for a 6"8 lad at 22.

That's not the exciting thing about him though. He's naturally very academic and his smarts are evident on the rugby pitch. He would have been a terrific half but his attributes mean he could be a world class lock. It's not hype in this instance, the serious buyers are throwing down the cash. Paulie v.2.1 (but bigger)

Ryan isn't even 22. He was born in 1996.

He's still 20.

bilston

So three members of last year's JWC squad touring with Ireland this summer and all three al out certain to be capped. Great stuff. The scary thing about last year's side is that there are two or three more who could potentially make the step up. But the three selected look to have the potential to be central figures in the Ireland set up over the next 10+ years.

Historically the very best players tend to get thrown in pretty early in their careers. Most of them have been capped by 22 or 23 and some even earlier. If you've got it you've got it. For all the accusations of conservatism being rife in Irish squad and team selections plenty of players have made their debut before the age of 22 or 23.

With my Ulster hat on and looking at players I watch week in week out I'd say Sean Reidy is a bit unlucky but maybe given his age and his "ceiling" (although I'm not sure I buy into the idea of players having a ceiling) it's understandable he's been left out. I'd have been tempted to have brought McCloskey too. He was in decent form at the end of the season after a generally disappointing campaign (as much due to injury than anything) but he brings something very different to the midfield. Anyway he can't have any complaints, like most of the Ulster centres he suffers from there being too many of them of the same level. There is so little between McCloskey, Marshall and Olding for example that Kiss hasn't a clue who his first choice midfield is and therefore there is a total lack of consistency in selection which probably messes with the players mindsets...anyway that's a moan for another thread...

In conclusion a good squad with an eye, and probably an eye and a half to the future.

Peregrine

I'll be honest, I was joking when I put up Ryan's picture on the first page. Didn't expect it to happen at all.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Payne was out of left field when first picked at 13. Carbery getting a call up similarly. Dillane was also a surprise at the time and he brought through Dave Kearney also.

Yeah and remember McFadden getting called up?

/runs away

pickarooney

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDX5gINaZws

Podge_irl

The Bone Collector wrote: »

MOD: re-regs don't have a voice here

Technically James Ryan has no form.

.ak

Well just looking at the 6n fixtures for '18/'19 and I find it difficult to see us winning either of them with those schedules. We have a tendency to start tournaments a bit cold, and both openers are France and England respectively.

I think next year will be a repeat of this year; an opening loss in a messy game, followed by three strong home performances but any hope will be dashed by the 2nd away game...

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

Well just looking at the 6n fixtures for '18/'19 and I find it difficult to see us winning either of them with those schedules. We have a tendency to start tournaments a bit cold, and both openers are France and England respectively.

I think next year will be a repeat of this year; an opening loss in a messy game, followed by three strong home performances but any hope will be dashed by the 2nd away game...

Meh, we've lost to France once in 6 years and that was by 1 point when our scrum was mangled while missing our first choice TH.

I don't particularly agree with the contention that we tend to start tournaments cold anyway. We didn't have a great opening to the last 2 6N but you're trying to create a trend out of that which I don't think exists. Missing Sexton and Ross respectively those two years was fairly relevant to the slow starts I think.

Short of ending up with a schedule of England, France and Wales in a row - which would be unpleasant - I don't think the order of games is all that relevant anyway. I certainly wouldn't be basing a prognosis for our performance on it.

Former Former

bilston wrote: »

With my Ulster hat on and looking at players I watch week in week out I'd say Sean Reidy is a bit unlucky but maybe given his age and his "ceiling" (although I'm not sure I buy into the idea of players having a ceiling) it's understandable he's been left out. I'd have been tempted to have brought McCloskey too. He was in decent form at the end of the season after a generally disappointing campaign (as much due to injury than anything) but he brings something very different to the midfield. Anyway he can't have any complaints, like most of the Ulster centres he suffers from there being too many of them of the same level. There is so little between McCloskey, Marshall and Olding for example that Kiss hasn't a clue who his first choice midfield is and therefore there is a total lack of consistency in selection which probably messes with the players mindsets...anyway that's a moan for another thread...

In conclusion a good squad with an eye, and probably an eye and a half to the future.

Yeah, I think Reidy is unlucky, being 28 probably counted against him.

McCloskey is a different story. Like Gilroy, this is exactly the sort of tour that he should be going on, but instead he's been stepped over by Scannell and O'Loughlin. He'll need something very special to get back into the frame.

Other guys who fall into the 'big loser' bracket:
- Quinn Roux; capped last year, in the wider squad for the Six Nations, now behind Dillane, Treadwell, Ryan and possibly Molony.
- Denis Buckley; a boards.ie favourite, probably needs a biblical injury crisis to earn a cap now.
- James Cronin; looked to be overtaking Kilcoyne at one point but fell back

For more experienced internationals like Trimble, Strauss and McFadden, it's hard to know what exclusion means. Certainly it's hard to see Trimble being ditched completely at this point.

Dezekota

Jaysus Gilroy gets hattrick v Italy in 6 nations but can't get into a squad minus 11 players for lions trip and no kearneys or Mcfadden

awec

McCloskey and Schmidt have issues I think.

Dezekota

awec wrote: »

McCloskey Ulster centres and Schmidt have issues I think.

FYP

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Well just looking at the 6n fixtures for '18/'19 and I find it difficult to see us winning either of them with those schedules. We have a tendency to start tournaments a bit cold, and both openers are France and England respectively.

I think next year will be a repeat of this year; an opening loss in a messy game, followed by three strong home performances but any hope will be dashed by the 2nd away game...

I don't think we could've asked for a better schedule to be honest. France away is typically the most attritional fixture IMO and having that first with hopefully a full deck to choose from is ideal. I prefer the idea of facing France first up when they're yet to hit their stride and may be trying out some new combinations.
Italy the next week is a banker victory so won't be under pressure to go full strength.
Home to Scotland and away to England is a nice way to finish. Even if we lose the first game there's a good chance we'll still be in contention. Twickenham on Paddy's day will be a heck of an occasion.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

McCloskey and Schmidt have issues I think.

His ability to go missing in defense probably.

stephen_n

Dezekota wrote: »

FYP

Jared Payne?

Buer

awec wrote: »

McCloskey and Schmidt have issues I think.

If the whispers that came from some last summer are true and he turned down a call up, he'll never play for Ireland again under Schmidt.

awec

Buer wrote: »

If the whispers that came from some last summer are true and he turned down a call up, he'll never play for Ireland again under Schmidt.

Yes that's what I am talking about.

errlloyd

Dezekota wrote: »

awec wrote: »

McCloskey Ulster Centres and Schmidt have issues I think.

FYP

Just start McCloskey at fullback for Ulster. He'll be back playing centre for Ireland in no time.

awec

awec wrote: »

Yes that's what I am talking about.

Is there any substance to that though? I don't even understand how a player contacted to a province can decide they aren't going to play, surely it's effectively gross misconduct?

Bridge93

Was I completely imagining things or was it mentioned that Gilroy was going to Newcastle?

thomond2006

Ultan Dillane is set to be fit for Connacht's playoff. He's the likely callup.

whatawaster

Would expect an inexperienced side against USA and then the big (ish) guns against Japan in game 1, maybe a few tweaks for the second test.

v USA

O'Halloran, Conway, O'Loughlin, Scannell, Stockdale, Carbery, McGrath

Kilcoyne, Tracy, Bealham, Treadwell, Dillane or Molony, Ruddock (c), O'Donnell, O'Donoghue

Subs: Heffernan, John Ryan, Porter, James Ryan, Leavy, Cooney, Jackson, Earls


v Japan (1)

Zebo, Earls, Ringrose, Marshall, Stockdale, Jackson, Marmion

Healy, Scannell, John Ryan, Toner, Treadwell, Ruddock (c), Van Der Flier, Conan

Subs: Tracy, Kilcoyne, Bealham, Dillane or Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Carbery, Conway


v Japan (2)

Carbery, Earls, Ringrose, Scannell, Zebo, Jackson, McGrath

Healy, Scannell, John Ryan, Toner, Dillane or Molony, Ruddock (c), Leavy, Conan

Subs: Tracy, Kilcoyne, Porter, James Ryan, Van Der Flier, Marmion, Stockdale, O'Halloran

CIARAN_BOYLE

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

Is there any substance to that though? I don't even understand how a player contacted to a province can decide they aren't going to play, surely it's effectively gross misconduct?

I don't think they can be forced to play international rugby by contract. It dose tend to result in the player being treated as a niq by the union though which will result in their contract not being renewed.

Former Former

I don't believe that McCloskey was the player who refused the call-up. No-one is that stupid.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think they can be forced to play international rugby by contract. It dose tend to result in the player being treated as a niq by the union though which will result in their contract not being renewed.

But these guys are all dually contracted to the province and the IRFU?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Former Former wrote: »

But these guys are all dually contracted to the province and the IRFU?

I'm fairly sure that World Rugby would not allow contracts requiring that someone plays international rugby. However its done on an informal basis.

thomond2006

Only a few survivors from the US tour squad 4 years ago. 4 are 2017 Lions.

Rory Best, Mike Sherry, Richardt Strauss
David Kilcoyne, Tom Court
Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick, Jamie Hagan
Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
Chris Henry, Kevin McLaughlin, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony

Isaac Boss, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall,
Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan
Stuart Olding, Robbie Henshaw, Darren Cave
Fergus McFadden, Andrew Trimble, Simon Zebo, Felix Jones

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

Only a few survivors from the US tour squad 4 years ago. 4 are 2017 Lions.

Rory Best, Mike Sherry, Richardt Strauss
David Kilcoyne, Tom Court
Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick, Jamie Hagan
Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner
Chris Henry, Kevin McLaughlin, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony

Isaac Boss, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall,
Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan
Stuart Olding, Robbie Henshaw, Darren Cave
Fergus McFadden, Andrew Trimble, Simon Zebo, Felix Jones

Paul Marshall, shows how little depth we had at SH even then.

thomond2006

stephen_n wrote: »

Paul Marshall, shows how little depth we had at SH even then.

The age profile of this year's squad is a lot younger too.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't think they can be forced to play international rugby by contract. It dose tend to result in the player being treated as a niq by the union though which will result in their contract not being renewed.

As the IRFU have pointed out in the past, everyone who plays here is contracted to the IRFU. I would be really surprised if there's nothing about international rugby in the contracts of IQ players.

If it's true then he's a dope and shouldn't be picked. I suspect it isn't though and there's something in his game Schmidt isn't mad on. Or hasn't seen enough development in during his tenure. Etc etc.

damianmcr

When do the tickets for the Autumn Internationals go on sale?

Am I too late to join the supporters club for these games?

Thanks

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

Paul Marshall, shows how little depth we had at SH even then.

I still remember the final play of that USA game. Marshall was at a ruck at halfway. Madigan was standing outside at first receiver. Jamie Hagan was standing a few metres away from Madigan, trying to stop himself suffering a cardiac arrest as a 19 stone prop does in Houston in June.

Marshall f*cks the ball at Hagan who spills it.

No wonder people were drinking heavily for the next game.

The Lost Sheep

damianmcr wrote: »

When do the tickets for the Autumn Internationals go on sale?

Am I too late to join the supporters club for these games?

Thanks

The clubs, schools, representative parts of the branch will have sent in the number of tickets they want in the past few weeks. Whatever tickets go on public sale will depend on their allocations.
It isnt too late to join IRFU supporters club but its a big lottery to get tickets from there

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I still remember the final play of that USA game. Marshall was at a ruck at halfway. Madigan was standing outside at first receiver. Jamie Hagan was standing a few metres away from Madigan, trying to stop himself suffering a cardiac arrest as a 19 stone prop does in Houston in June.

Marshall f*cks the ball at Hagan who spills it.

No wonder people were drinking heavily for the next game.

I recall a pretty legendary match thread. Can anyone dig out the link?

Former Former

damianmcr wrote: »

When do the tickets for the Autumn Internationals go on sale?

Am I too late to join the supporters club for these games?

Thanks

Usually late summer, so still plenty of time to join.

Matches this year are South Africa, Fiji and Argentina - there will be plenty of tickets, I would expect a public sale on Ticketmaster.

DGRulz

thomond2006 wrote: »

I recall a pretty legendary match thread. Can anyone dig out the link?

I tried looking for it there but couldn't find it. A lot of crazy stuff went on in that game, maybe we imagined it?

thomond2006

Boom!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84981418

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84985206&postcount=516
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84985385&postcount=640

irishman86

stephen_n wrote: »

**** that's an awful lot of injuries so, must be the most unfortunate coach in history for injuries.

How many got into the team through form then?
Not single cap players against teams like Canada against a bigger team

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

The age profile of this year's squad is a lot younger too.

Particularly in the forwards, there were a good few young backs there.

Dave_The_Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

I recall a pretty legendary match thread. Can anyone dig out the link?

A few things contributed to that:

a) the quality of the game.
b) the quality of the referee and the interesting ruck interpretations
c) the fact that a lot of us were drinking heavily, it being the wee hours of the morning.

Good times.

stephen_n

irishman86 wrote: »

How many got into the team through form then?
Not single cap players against teams like Canada against a bigger team

The figures don't lie, more capped players than any other coach, but they're all injury enforced? Seriously does that actually make sense in your head when you type it?

Club form means nothing or very little at international level. If the guys who got caps against Canada or whoever, were actually good enough to displace what's ahead of them, then they would. The fact they failed to take that opportunity suggests they aren't. Form in most people's minds seems to be based on what player x does in attack, then completely ignores everything else. Which of these form players who got their shot in a lesser game demanded inclusion and didn't get it?

Winters

Re the USA highlights. The league has been called many things but the "Rabo Pro Direct" is a first..

molloyjh

irishman86 wrote: »

How many got into the team through form then?

None. Not one. In any national team ever. Not just Ireland.

People talk about form as this single determining factor. It really, really isn't. Players get into their national teams training squads on the back of form and probably a few other things (physical build, attitude, character etc). From there they get the chance to, basically, audition for a spot in a squad. And from there a chance to prove themselves capable of a match day squad. There is no single determining factor to selection.

For example Ferg got into the 6Ns squad for the last week back in March, not because of his form, but because he was going to be able to slot straight in and do exactly what the coaches needed him to do without instruction. He was never going to be in the match day squad, they just needed numbers for training. So they brought in a guy who knew what was expected of him, that they didn't have to coach, and who also brought with him a great work ethic even when he wasn't getting selected which sets a really good tone in the camp. These are the other things that coaches need to consider when selecting squads and match day sides. Not just how well someone is playing for a totally different team, playing a totally different way at a totally different level.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

For example Ferg got into the 6Ns squad for the last week back in March, not because of his form, but because he was going to be able to slot straight in and do exactly what the coaches needed him to do without instruction. He was never going to be in the match day squad, they just needed numbers for training. So they brought in a guy who knew what was expected of him, that they didn't have to coach, and who also brought with him a great work ethic even when he wasn't getting selected which sets a really good tone in the camp. These are the other things that coaches need to consider when selecting squads and match day sides. Not just how well someone is playing for a totally different team, playing a totally different way at a totally different level.

This is the best thing about the summer tour squad. He's going to have players like Stockdale now who are fare more talented that he'll be able to call up instead now in the next 6N. It'll be worth shipping a loss against Japan for that alone, if it came to pass.

molloyjh

Madelynn Glamorous Range wrote: »

This is the best thing about the summer tour squad. He's going to have players like Stockdale now who are fare more talented that he'll be able to call up instead now in the next 6N. It'll be worth shipping a loss against Japan for that alone, if it came to pass.

Yeah it's offering us a great opportunity. Add to that the fact that we might see a few young guys become a bit more established, allowing yet more come through off the back of that over the next year or so. We're in a good place. I'm sure we'd all love to be in a better place with more depth etc, but given where we were 18 months ago I think we're coming along nicely.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

stephen_n wrote: »

Paul Marshall, shows how little depth we had at SH even then.

I still remember the final play of that USA game. Marshall was at a ruck at halfway. Madigan was standing outside at first receiver. Jamie Hagan was standing a few metres away from Madigan, trying to stop himself suffering a cardiac arrest as a 19 stone prop does in Houston in June.

Marshall f*cks the ball at Hagan who spills it.

No wonder people were drinking heavily for the next game.

And you guys want us to start this guy over Pienaar!!!!

Buer

bilston wrote: »

And you guys want us to start this guy over Pienaar!!!!

I wouldn't want you to start Paul Marshall over awec let alone Pienaar.

Former Former

Just so long as people realise that good performances in the matches this summer does not equate to a player deserving selection against the Boks in November. Running in a few tries against sub-Pro12 level opponents does not mean a guy is going to displace a guy who has been there for years. It's a start, but it is not everything.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Just so long as people realise that good performances in the matches this summer does not equate to a player deserving selection against the Boks in November. Running in a few tries against sub-Pro12 level opponents does not mean a guy is going to displace a guy who has been there for years. It's a start, but it is not everything.

So you're talking about the USA match really, not the tour overall.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

And you guys want us to start this guy over Pienaar!!!!

And you still have this guy in every squad for the 7 years you've had Pienaar!!!!!