Why don't our prisoners work?

DickSwiveller

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

What rehabilitation?

There are comments on this thread telling you that there aren't the places for even whats happening at the moment. We don't rehabilitate in Irish prions.

I'm all for sentencing being removed from Judges - it should go to a review panel and all sentences should be for 'as long as it takes'. The problem is who is going to pay for it?

And another point. You said earlier that deterrent never works. How many people drink and drive nowadays? It used to be rampant until the authorities cracked down on it; now it's very rare. A perfect example of deterrence working.

What 'rehabilitation' would you suggest for people who are willing to tie up an innocent family and cause havoc in their house? I'd be very interested to know.

Mark25

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Proper punishment. No weasley sentences. Hard labour everyday for a number of days, no televisions, Playstations etc. That's how you deter someone. What do you propose? The same policies that have our prisoners packed?

Seriously if you took TVs and playstations (for people who have them) away things would be much worse in prisons for both prisoners and the officers. And even if it was allowed hard labour isn't going to happen with the way prisons are. I'm not sure what you even really mean by hard labour?

DickSwiveller

Mark25 wrote: »

Seriously if you took TVs and playstations (for people who have them) away things would be much worse in prisons for both prisoners and the officers. And even if it was allowed hard labour isn't going to happen with the way prisons are. I'm not sure what you even really mean by hard labour?

I know it won't ever happen - because there's no will to change the pathetic system as it currently exists. The excuse industry will keep profiting from these career criminals and the decent, law abiding people will have to put up with it. I have to say that I've noticed from discussing this issue with people, that the ones who make excuses for these criminals generally live in areas that don't suffer from lawlessness, vandalism etc. Very interesting.

Samuel T. Cogley

DickSwiveller wrote: »

And another point. You said earlier that deterrent never works. How many people drink and drive nowadays? It used to be rampant until the authorities cracked down on it; now it's very rare. A perfect example of deterrence working.

Fecking loads of people drink and drive. That aside I didn't say deterrents never work, they work in all sorts of cases. White collar crime (where we actually follow through - Garlic guy anyone?) and in motoring where we don't follow through - unfortunately.

Drink driving has been 'dealt with' through enforcement, not deterrent.

DickSwiveller wrote: »

What 'rehabilitation' would you suggest for people who are willing to tie up an innocent family and cause havoc in their house? I'd be very interested to know.

Well I thought you wanted to address this before that happened, as would I. However as for the violent criminals I'd want them locked up until the risk was reduced considerably. I'd want them studied both physically and mentally and I'd want to use that knowledge to to understand what the earlier signs were and how people could be diverted. I'd want them medicated and closely monitored on release.

I'd want a much smaller prison population with those who can't be fixed kept in. What I wouldn't want to do is a continual cycle of locking up and releasing people with the added effect of making it so bad that they'd rather kill the family than risk going back into prison. As for the obvious alternative of just locking them up forever, we simply can't afford to do that, it's the most expensive option of them all.

Mark25

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Community Service and Community Release Schemes (CRS) do exactly that.



Personally I think the 3 strikes rule should apply to Free Legal Aid. In the event that someone unexpectedly needs it then they'd be covered, in the event that someone routinely needs it they can pay for it themselves.



:rolleyes: All I can say to that is 'Never Say Never'. Plenty of people in jails that never expected to end up in there.

BTW, if "we shouldn't have to pay for them..." how the hell is the system supposed to paid for ?





Where I work there's one 3 course meal in the year - Christmas dinner.
Well fed ? That's subjective, but if you consider a bowl of shredded cheese and a tomato at 4.30 pm with nothing again until cereal at 8am then you're entitled to consider that well fed I suppose.

Yes they have TV. IMO nothing wrong with that as they spend 18 hours a day in cells, suicide and attempted suicide rates have dropped massively since their introduction, as has in cell vandalism. BTW, contrary to popular opinion they don't have Sky Sports etc and they don't all have Playstations either.

IMO nothing wrong with Gym equipment either if it keeps their minds and bodies occupied. 370k equates to about 30k per prison which isn't massive either considering that Mountjoy and Cork were both being refurbished about this time. Most prison gyms in the country only accommodate around 20-25 prisoners at a time maximum so it's not like they're massive state of the art gymnasiums.



Back on topic, most prisoners want to work whilst in jail but there's not enough work for them and there's regularly not enough staff to open the workshops that are there. Prison Officers want to see them in workshops or otherwise occupied. Far better that than 200 prisoners walking around a yard.

Strange for me to be agreeing with a prison officer but everything he said there is right especially about the food and there not been enough work/workshops for everybody. It's good getting outside on the yard but it's better to be doing something to keep busy

MRnotlob606

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Yes and 3 strike rule while we're at it. Be far better off for Irish society if people with 90 convictions are locked up for life after 3 and made to work so they can some use to us.

and the 3 strike rule has worked greatly hasn't it??:rolleyes:

pilly

Samuel T. Cogley wrote:

Drink driving has been 'dealt with' through enforcement, not deterrent.

Enforcement is the deterrent. Don't be silly now Samuel. You're just digging further.

Samuel T. Cogley

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I know it won't ever happen - because there's no will to change the pathetic system as it currently exists. The excuse industry will keep profiting from these career criminals and the decent, law abiding people will have to put up with it. I have to say that I've noticed from discussing this issue with people, that the ones who make excuses for these criminals generally live in areas that don't suffer from lawlessness, vandalism etc. Very interesting.

Areas that do suffer from lawlessness need to develop solutions locally. They need to involve the authorities and stand together against the small number of people that wreck an area. It's extremely hard to do, it's impossible for the CJS to do it where no one will cooperate with them.

That's a larger issue than the one being discussed here.

Mark25

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There's a lot of posters here talking absolute rubbish & they seem to ignore other posters that have actually been to prison. They'd rather repeat what some newspaper published on a quiet day.

The governor has less than 5 euro to feed a prisoner per day. Though they try their best they can't really cook decent meals on 5 per day. This includes any tea, coffee, sugar, milk etc. 5 doesn't go far.

There are TVs in all cells but most prisons only provide the four Irish channels (that'd be punishment enough for me to have to watch Irish TV)
They can have a Playstation but not anything digital so I think that leaves only Playstation one.

BTW When a judge sentences someone to prison the punishment is taking his/her freedom away not weather they can watch TV or play games. They get to see family for 45 minutes per week on visits (sometimes with glass between them & their kids) & one 6 minute phone call per day. Not easy having a relationship with your kids IMO.

They are locked in for 18 hours per day. The cell door opens at 8AM. They have 2 minutes to get cereal & are locked in again till 9:30. They have 30 minutes to shave & shower. Between 10& 12 they work or go to school. 12 they have dinner in their cell & stay there till 2pm. Between 2 & 4 they work or school. 4pm locked in with their tea & let out for REC time from 5:30 to 7:30. 7:30pm they are locked in again till 8AM. (12.5 hours)

It costs more money to have prisoners out of their cells rather than locked in. This is why they are locked in for 18 hours per day. It would cost much much more to have prisoners working outside of the prison. The prison service is responsible for them or responsible if anything happened to a member of the public. As things are right now every prisoner is handcuffed if they have to go to hospital. Even non violent prisoners with short sentences have to be handcuffed & escorted with two prison officers to leave the prison.

Each prisoner gets an allowance of 15 per week for the tuc shop. Here they can buy deodorant & other toiletries, Tobacco, water & biscuits & sweets. The guys working in the kitchen get 5 euro on top of this for the hard work they do.

That's it. Not the most comfortable life to live. Not spoilt rotten IMO. I believe prison doesn't work at rehabilitation & it's not what its there for anyway. It's there to take someones freedom away. It's a flawed set-up worldwide but untill someone comes up with a better way to punish someone we are stuck with it

That's the best post I read telling people exactly what it's like.

biscuithead

Bowlardo wrote: »

I always should of thought they should have out a one out west where the were brought out to fields and had to move rocks from the fields....5 days a week...out in the rain...can only use their hands.....

And if you refuse to do this dumb task? Then what? A beating? So you advocate forced labour camps?

DickSwiveller

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Digging what Pilly? The fact that you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about is fairly obvious. At least some people are willing to engage in the conversation rather than throw in the occasional, and rather dull, one liners.

In all fairness Samuel, you're comment that enforcement and not deterrent stopped high rates of drink driving is absolute balderdash. As a result of the gardaí enforcing the law it has deterred people from doing it.

Turtyturd

Mark25 wrote: »

Seriously if you took TVs and playstations (for people who have them) away things would be much worse in prisons for both prisoners and the officers. And even if it was allowed hard labour isn't going to happen with the way prisons are. I'm not sure what you even really mean by hard labour?

A lot of people just get so outraged at the thought of prisoners having tv's that they don't even look at it from the perspective of making staff's lives easier. It's a horrible job, and if they are in a situation where they are guarding a rec hall with one other officer and 20 plus prisoners where something could kick off at any minute every distraction is welcome.

Omackeral

Turtyturd wrote: »

A lot of people just get so outraged at the thought of prisoners having tv's that they don't even look at it from the perspective of making staff's lives easier. It's a horrible job, and if they are in a situation where they are guarding a rec hall with one other officer and 20 plus prisoners where something could kick off at any minute every distraction is welcome.

Exactly. What difference does it make to you or me if a fella is off the streets behind the wall in a space no bigger than a box room? So what if he looks at a Champion's League match or the soaps in his cell, it's no skin off my nose. Gives them something to talk about amongst themselves and keeps their minds occupied. Suicides are down tenfold since TV's came in and many old school staff say it's the best change in the system they've ever seen.

Samuel T. Cogley

DickSwiveller wrote: »

In all fairness Samuel, you're comment that enforcement and not deterrent stopped high rates of drink driving is absolute balderdash. As a result of the gardaí enforcing the law it has deterred people from doing it.

The difference between the type of deterrent you're suggesting and enforcement is pretty straight forward. The deterrent of a ban or prison time did very little to offending rates. Enforcement has gone some way to helping which is completely different to the MO of just stick a few more years in the legislation.

Education has done way more than a deterrent and enforcement combined.

You're also dealing with, as I've tried to point out to you before, a group that can be, in the main, deterred. An alcoholic who lives 10 miles from the nearest pub is not going to be deterred no matter what obstacles you put in their way. A heroin addict robbing houses is in a very similar position.

Mark25

demanufactured wrote: »

They should be made to do ****e jobs like picking stones in a field.
Digging trenches and then filling them in again.
Building walls, kicking them and then building them again.

Anyone who doesn't want to participate can spend they day in their cell, no TV, play station or Internet... Just the toilet for company.

Anyone who steps out of line gets a night in solitary.

Sounds like you've been watching Cool Hand Luke

PMBC

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The policies you suggest also see prisons packed the world over. The only thing they do - which arguably is a legitimate aim - is make society 'feel good'. It doesn't reduce crime, in fact the opposite, it doesn't reduce recidivism and it increases cost in trying to keep a lid on it.

So honest question here - why do it? Why not do what would reduce crime etc. Putting cost aside as tbh it's the only reason we don't do it. What makes you (and others) so sure hard labour would be any form of deterrent? I'm keeping an open mind here - maybe I've missed something.

The worst part of being in jail is doing nothing. Prisoners, generally would appreciate work but there are issues such as with work tools being used for other purposes.
Read John Lonergan's book for an eye opener and he had a hard time running Mountjoy - though mostly with the Department of Justice. The red-tops and the Indo readily sensationalise prison stuff as do their sister papers in UK. We all know that a lot of terrible and brutal crimes take place. It is also known that there is a huge number of convicted criminals with mental health issues - before they are locked away.
I don't carry a card for Prisoners Rights but the issue is more complicated than it is often presented to us, citizens. Look at the different treatment of white collar criminals compared with 'the riff raff' - as a solicitor that I know referred to the defendants in the District Court in middle Ireland

Summer wind

biscuithead wrote: »

Summer wind wrote: »

Stupid suggestions to those who know better rarely do.

I've been in courtrooms and prisons. I've seen young men do their best in court by interrupting the judge and shouting in the hope of being found in contempt of court so they'll be sent to jail because they think it'll make them look like a hard man. I've seen young men that have been bouncing from jail to jail racking up the convictions because they don't mind doing the time. There's nothing there to deter them. This is a cycle that needs to change.
I understand that prisoners need something to focus on and working out helps but I do think that €370,000 or €30,000 per jail is a bit much. Can you see why I don't think it's terrible if someone that has 90 convictions and has just gotten another 12 months inside doesn't have weights to lift and a trainer to give him a workout plan. I would much prefer to see half that money spent on something for sick children. It's obvious our opinions differ but I'm as entitled to mine as you are to yours.

the_pen_turner

biscuithead wrote: »

And if you refuse to do this dumb task? Then what? A beating? So you advocate forced labour camps?

a judge could give a sentence of 2 years hard labour. if they refuse or only do some days a week then it will take longer to do the 730 days

Sleeper12

the_pen_turner wrote:

a judge could give a sentence of 2 years hard labour. if they refuse or only do some days a week then it will take longer to do the 730 days

They can't make the same people work outside of jail there's not a chance that they'll make them do hard labour inside jail.
Also you'll notice hard labour has vanished in most countries if not them all. Doesn't work. Never has and never will