Switch and sockets heights in slated shed

086lavey

New shed wired , had a inspection today by reci , nothing wrong there ,
I installed all outlets out of reach of cattle ,due to shed not having a area to install them between 400/1200
Told today I have to lower them down , but yet told to keep them out of cattle harm ,there is not one place to mount them lower , what now ?

Mississippi.

Could you ask the inspector to point out where he would suggest putting them and then argue from there with him?

2011

086lavey wrote: »

New shed wired , had a inspection today by reci , nothing wrong there ,
I installed all outlets out of reach of cattle ,due to shed not having a area to install them between 400/1200
Told today I have to lower them down , but yet told to keep them out of cattle harm ,there is not one place to mount them lower , what now ?

I would fight this. It may require a letter / email with photos. I would argue that the proposed change not safe.

554.1.1 states that socket outlets shall be installed so that they will not be subjected to mechanical damage during normal use.

086lavey

Mississippi. wrote: »

Could you ask the inspector to point out where he would suggest putting them and then argue from there with him?

The inspector was not helpful , told me fix it , but it is not safe to leave them low ,

086lavey

2011 wrote: »

I would fight this. It may require a letter / email with photos. I would argue that the proposed change not safe.

554.1.1 states that socket outlets shall be installed so that they will not be subjected to mechanical damage during normal use.

I am going to fight it , I'd say it's going to be tough , he wanted the fuse board down at 2.25 to top as well , looks like I will have to move that outside in agri box ,

brightspark

depending on the type of shed involved can you argue it comes under regulation 705 which only specifies a minimum height (450mm) ? But that regulation only applies in certain cases.

Alternatively you are going to have to encase them in a cabinet or something maybe protected by a strong barrier.

2011

From my experience with wiring milking parlours I learned that cattle deliberately rub off anything that is sticking out off a wall. So even if you put something around the socket to protect it the cattle would simply rub against it ensuring that it won't last. It should also be noted that as little as 25V can kill a cow!

086lavey

brightspark wrote: »

depending on the type of shed involved can you argue it comes under regulation 705 which only specifies a minimum height (450mm) ? But that regulation only applies in certain cases.

Alternatively you are going to have to encase them in a cabinet or something maybe protected by a strong barrier.

this guy shoot me down straight away when I tried to explain my case , I rang reci then to see if I could talk to some one , was told talk to your inspector, is there any one else I can ask to talk to ?
The thing now is , there is a grant on this shed , and they are not happy with low Switch's and sockets

2011

086lavey wrote: »

this guy shoot me down straight away when I tried to explain my case , I rang reci then to see if I could talk to some one , was told talk to your inspector, is there any one else I can ask to talk to ?
The thing now is , there is a grant on this shed , and they are not happy with low Switch's and sockets

I would contact CER. Explain to them that you have attempted to explain your case to RECI. Point out that what they propose is against regulations, specifically 554.1.1

A more thorough read of the regulations will throw up more noncompliance I would think. Do your homework before making the call.

The problem with common sense is that it is not that common

086lavey

2011 wrote: »

I would contact CER. Explain to them that you have attempted to explain your case to RECI. Point out that what they propose is against regulations, specifically 554.1.1

A more thorough read of the regulations will throw up more noncompliance I would think. Do your homework before making the call.

The problem with common sense is that it is not that common

Thanks very much , I get the feeling he was trying to push his weight around with me , is there a direct contact number for CER in relation to electrical issues

2011

086lavey wrote: »

Thanks very much , I get the feeling he was trying to push his weight around with me , is there a direct contact number for CER in relation to electrical issues

I have emailed them in the past, they respond quickly.
Failing that google is your friend

It would be important to get all of your ducks in a row first.
I would focus on the safety aspect. Milking parlours can be particularly dangerous, water, electricity and large strong animals.

086lavey

2011 wrote: »

I have emailed them in the past, they respond quickly.
Failing that google is your friend

It would be important to get all of your ducks in a row first.
I would focus on the safety aspect. Milking parlours can be particularly dangerous, water, electricity and large strong animals.

What would you think about locating the consumer unit to a agri box outside ?
With a locked door ? Access problems?

Electricman

2011 wrote: »

I would fight this. It may require a letter / email with photos. I would argue that the proposed change not safe.
.

What part of the country are you located in? I am a shocked at the advice being given here. It is the role of RECI inspectors to ensure that all works carried out by Registered Electrical Contractors (RECs) comply with the current wiring rules (ET101 2008). It is not the role of RECI inspectors to modify the rules to suit particular installations.
There are no circumstances where deviations from the rules can be overlooked, no matter how illogical the particular rule might be in a particular situation.
If RECI inspectors allowed exceptions to the rules it would quickly become a free for all with the REC and the general public installing whatever they liked, wherever they liked, and arguing "Special Circumstancces"
As confirmed in another thread in this forum all work in special locations listed in part 7 of the rules can only be legally carried out by a REC. Agricultural work (705) comes under this heading. It is a total waste of time contacting the CER as they will simply confirm that the RECI inspector is correct.
Bite the bullet and make the modiications outlined by the RECI inspector. Don't waste your valuable time talking to the CER as they will confirm the RECI inspector is correct. You need to learn from this and simply carry out all your work in full compliance with the wiring rules. This will make your life much easier in the future.

2011

Electricman wrote: »

What part of the country are you located in? I am a shocked at the advice being given here. It is the role of RECI inspectors to ensure that all works carried out by Registered Electrical Contractors (RECs) comply with the current wiring rules (ET101 2008).

I have just highlighted where the advice provided by the inspector conflicts with the regulations, specifically 554.1.1

Bite the bullet and make the modiications outlined by the RECI inspector.

Even if it unsafe to do so?
There is nothing wrong with arguing your case especially when there is a serious safety concern.
RECI are not infallible!

You need to learn from this and simply carry out all your work in full compliance with the wiring rules. This will make your life much easier in the future.

I think that safety must come first.
Blindly following regulations regardless of ambient conditions can be very dangerous.
The inspector's proposal will expose people and livestock to risk of electrocution in an already high risk area.
My suggestion is not to simply ignore the inspector and "do your own thing", it is to engage in a logical dialog and seek expert opinion.

As confirmed in another thread in this forum all work in special locations listed in part 7 of the rules can only be legally carried out by a REC.

I think that it is safe to assume that the OP is a REC as he has engaged with a RECI inspector.
I would be confident that the inspector would insist on this.

brightspark

Perhaps a stupid question but are sockets needed in the shed where the cattle are? Could a separate section be created either with a full wall or other secure barrier to keep the animals away from the sockets etc? ( note I see a consumer unit now being referred to as well)

@ Electricman. While rules cannot be modified the interpretation of many of the rules has always been a source of debate. Section 705.554.02 only has a minimum height specified. And 705.513.01 states that Electrical equipment generally should be inaccessible to livestock. And for the wiring something similar in 705.522.6.02

Perhaps this ultimately means no electrical equipment can be installed in the areas accessible to the animals?

086lavey

brightspark wrote: »

Perhaps a stupid question but are sockets needed in the shed where the cattle are? Could a separate section be created either with a full wall or other secure barrier to keep the animals away from the sockets etc? ( note I see a consumer unit now being referred to as well)

@ Electricman. While rules cannot be modified the interpretation of many of the rules has always been a source of debate. Section 705.554.02 only has a minimum height specified. And 705.513.01 states that Electrical equipment generally should be inaccessible to livestock. And for the wiring something similar in 705.522.6.02

Perhaps this ultimately means no electrical equipment can be installed in the areas accessible to the animals?

the shed has no locations for points at 1200 , I can't even put the light switches outside the shed ( which I don't want to ) due to large sliding doors ,

2011

086lavey wrote: »

the shed has no locations for points at 1200 , I can't even put the light switches outside the shed ( which I don't want to ) due to large sliding doors ,

Could you use a PIR and have no light switch?
Or use a key fob to switch the lights on? Stinel make very good fobs.

See link:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/STRC400.html

Mississippi.

I would contact reci/ safe electric again and ask to speak to the head of inspectors, and if necessary put it in writing to them with photos attached.

Farmers could not be expected to build a separate switch room with every shed and there are no spare walls in them.

There are thousands of sheds in the country and the way you describe yours is the standard way they are done.

I assume this inspector never wired any before he was appointed inspector.

086lavey

Mississippi. wrote: »

I would contact reci/ safe electric again and ask to speak to the head of inspectors, and if necessary put it in writing to them with photos attached.

Farmers could not be expected to build a separate switch room with every shed and there are no spare walls in them.

There are thousands of sheds in the country and the way you describe yours is the standard way they are done.

I assume this inspector never wired any before he was appointed inspector.

Cheers that's the way I'm going to go , my inspector is a ex contractor,
So should be more on ball ,

gctest50

Out of interest, what would you be using the sockets near the cows for ?

Lights n stuff ?

086lavey

gctest50 wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you be using the sockets near the cows for ?

Lights n stuff ?

Power washing , heat lamp , hoof trimming, etc etc ,

Sparks365

Can you post some pictures of the installation? fuse board, sockets and switches showing their locations?
were there any other breaches highlighted during the inspection ?

086lavey

Sparks365 wrote: »

Can you post some pictures of the installation? fuse board, sockets and switches showing their locations?
were there any other breaches highlighted during the inspection ?

I would , I want to contact reci first with them , small world and that ,

Sparks365

How did you get on with RECI and the CER? another inspection coming up if you did contact them me thinks!

086lavey

Sparks365 wrote: »

How did you get on with RECI and the CER? another inspection coming up if you did contact them me thinks!

Contacted CER , they where surprised inspector told me to drop them , waiting for department of agri to send me a email then it's on to reci , hope for the best , I'd say there will be another inspection yet

2011

086lavey wrote: »

Contacted CER , they where surprised inspector told me to drop them , waiting for department of agri to send me a email then it's on to reci , hope for the best , I'd say there will be another inspection yet

I would be interested to know how this ends up, please keep us posted.

Sparks365

Did the RECI inspector say to lower them or point out that they were at the wrong height?. From my experience with them they will only tell you whats wrong but not advise on how to put it right. What did the inspector note on the paperwork? that's what going be key here!
Just on a side note, Are you close to retirement ?

086lavey

Sparks365 wrote: »

Did the RECI inspector say to lower them or point out that they were at the wrong height?. From my experience with them they will only tell you whats wrong but not advise on how to put it right. What did the inspector note on the paperwork? that's what going be key here!
Just on a side note, Are you close to retirement ?

Afraid I'm not near retirement yet !! Not going to say much about paper work till it's sorted , in my favour or not ,

086lavey

Just coming back to this , reci came back to me yesterday, they have said the installation is satisfactory and no further works needed ,
Result !!

2011

086lavey wrote: »

Just coming back to this , reci came back to me yesterday, they have said the installation is satisfactory and no further works needed ,
Result !!

So they are not infallible.....
Great news!

Glad it all worked out for you in the end.

Electricman

086lavey wrote: »

Just coming back to this , reci came back to me yesterday, they have said the installation is satisfactory and no further works needed ,
Result !!

Can the poster confirm that he has been asked to make no modifications to the installation.

Having operated in the electrical contracting sector for many years I cannot accept that the above is true. Does the poster expect me to accept that RECI has allowed clear breaches of the wiring rules. If this is allowed why am I carrying out my installations in accordance with ET 101?. The OP confirmed in post 5 of this thread that the distribution board was installed at a height not conforming with ET 101.

Rule 530.5.3 is clear and states

"A wall mounted distribution board shall be mounted at a height not greater than 2.25m measured from the floor to the top surface of the board"

I can see no circumstances where RECI could allow this rule to be ignored. I myself in the past have been asked to move equipment which does not comply with the rules. If the correct location allowed livestock to access equipment, the equipment should be installed in enclosures or barriers installed to protect the equipment.

If the poster confirms that he has been allowed leave his Distribution Board in an non compliant location I intend contracting the chief inspector in RECI and asking why some contractors are being allowed break the rules.