Are you glad the Catholic Church in Ireland is finished ?

Huntergonzo

gifted wrote: »

My eldest girl made her communion last saturday, it was a beautiful day, all started with a wonderful mass celebrated by 2 of the most approachable priests I have ever met...one in his early 50s and the other in his 30s. The relaxed and very humourous atmosphere at the mass was brilliant. The kids were so relaxed and happy because the priests had been up to their school numerous times rehearsing the big day.

I don't think the church is finished. It's seriously in trouble and rightly so because of what happened in the past but if they are getting priests of the calibre of what we have here then I feel there is hope.

2 very talented salesmen by the sounds of things gifted.

One eyed Jack

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

a man who has zero life experience and yet preaches about children and marriage and vows and other sh?te he has no personal knowledge of is beyond comprehension.

What's beyond my comprehension is why you would assume that any man by virtue of the fact that they are a member of the clergy would have 'zero life experience'? How are you concluding that they have no personal knowledge of children, marriage, vows and other sh?te just because such a concept is indeed beyond your own comprehension?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The most tragic thing though is the stone age bullshít children are subjected to on a daily basis in our publicly funded primary schools. They're taught faith based creationism (in other words foundationless fairy stories) over scientific fact.....tragic.

You might want to run and tell their parents that. I imagine most of them will simply look at you as though you're a bit out of touch with reality.

martingriff

Nabber wrote: »

The problem which has afflicted society throughout the ages we always need something to believe in, religious or not.

Today belief has moved to science. Once again it's followers support it passionately.

Eventually science will be the cause of conflict and hardship.

Humanity won't rid itself of its woes

This is very true we even see it now with climate change, vaccinations etc. Scientists trying to come up with the new thing in a way its a religon also

Cee-Jay-Cee

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's beyond my comprehension is why you would assume that any man by virtue of the fact that they are a member of the clergy would have 'zero life experience'? How are you concluding that they have no personal knowledge of children, marriage, vows and other sh?te just because such a concept is indeed beyond your own comprehension?

Because the vast majority of them went straight from school into the seminary. They have no experience of bringing up they're own children, married life, etc. They live sheltered lives in houses provided for them, many of them have never had a proper job earning their own money. How can someone like that then stand up and preach to others on how to live as a family, how to bring up our children etc etc

My main point being is that priests should be allowed marry and have normal lives before being in a position to preach to others on how to live their lives.

Huntergonzo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You might want to run and tell their parents that. I imagine most of them will simply look at you as though you're a bit out of touch with reality.

haha well that is ironic One eyed Jack I'll give you that, "out of touch with reality" would be a perfect slogan for the teaching of the Catholic church. They're an organisation with many definite answers to big questions, just little or no proof to back up their answers.

Ps, in fairnees most of those parents are also products of the same education system as their children so there's little point in trying to reason with them, see how the cycle just goes on and on and on to the benefit of the church.

milehip

Nature abhors a vacuum,
would you prefer to be facing East 5 times a day?

gifted

Huntergonzo wrote: »

2 very talented salesmen by the sounds of things gifted.

No, just genuine people.

Huntergonzo

gifted wrote: »

No, just genuine people.

Maybe so, I didn't meet them so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but look at the organisation they work for, it's a shame to lose genuine people to such a profession.

jobbridge4life

_Brian wrote: »

I know it's not a popular opinion and I'm not a frequent church goer myself but I do know many young and old who have gotten great peace near the end of their lives from religion. It's a bit like the old saying "there's no atheists in foxholes".

I effing hate that expression. F anyone who dares co-opt the suffering and pain of those in their last moments to make a bullshnip claim like that.

1. You have no clue what people are feeling when they die. Okay a few people you spoke to were comforted, how about the countless others who weren't? Or those for whom it was terrifying? Who wondered seriously if they might not be headed to Hell.

2. What does it say about something that when faced with death and the terrible anguish that often accompanies it they suddenly discover faith? That sounds like belief at peril of persecution to me.

Zebra3

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If the word Catholic was replaced with Muslim, Jew, traveller, transgender, red cards be handed out.

If "RC bishop who protected RC priest from prosecution for raping kids" was replaced with Muslim, rabbi, swimming official, youth club leader, they'd have been put in jail.

Needless to say the cowardly Catholics who feel their crooked institution is under attack never called for the full application of the law against those who participated in the paedophile rings that existed within their beloved Mafiosi, I mean, church.

Until the law of the land is applied equally against all those scumbags and Catholics demand it, tough shit.

One eyed Jack

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Because the vast majority of them went straight from school into the seminary. They have no experience of bringing up they're own children, married life, etc. They live sheltered lives in houses provided for them, many of them have never had a proper job earning their own money. How can someone like that then stand up and preach to others on how to live as a family, how to bring up our children etc etc

My main point being is that priests should be allowed marry and have normal lives before being in a position to preach to others on how to live their lives.

So they have a different life experience to the one that you assume they should want for themselves in order to be able to talk about things you assume they have no authority to talk about?

Well that's a very different argument to suggesting they have 'zero life experience', particularly when they would have grown up in a family structure where their parents were married, and they have relatives and friends who are married and have children, and they were hardly sitting around on their holes all day in the seminary, they would have studied many subjects besides theology. They would also have travelled to other countries and experienced other cultures, so to assume they have 'zero life experience' would simply be wrong, on a number of counts. They're clergymen, not hermits.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

haha well that is ironic One eyed Jack I'll give you that, "out of touch with reality" would be a perfect slogan for the teaching of the Catholic church. They're an organisation with many definite answers to big questions, just little or no proof to back up their answers.

Ps, in fairnees most of those parents are also products of the same education system as their children so there's little point in trying to reason with them, see how the cycle just goes on and on and on to the benefit of the church.

Well you could reason with them if you actually had a point. Your point that children are taught creationism over science just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, particularly when it's weighed against the point that were it not for the education I for one received at both primary and secondary level, I would have been unlikely to progress to third level where I studied computer science and have been working in the area of software development for the last 20 odd years.

I don't have an issue with my child being a product of the same education system you're so quick to scorn which is why I for one would look at you if you came out with such nonsense as though you're a bit out of touch with reality.

osarusan

It isn't finished, and won't ever be finished, as there will always be adherents. That's fine with me - people should be free to believe in whatever they want.

But it should have no influence on the state. Yet, it still does, and that is not fine with me.

_Brian

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The RC church is far from being finished (in Ireland at least) but thankfully they do not have the same hold on the people they used to have and they can no longer dictate what we can and cannot do as people simply no longer stand for that crap.

I was brought up a catholic, I served as an alter boy for a few years too. I made my first communion and confirmation and I was married in a RC church (albeit in Spain) but I have zero respect or time for the RC church. Their teachings are borderline ridiculous, a catholic Mass is just the most stupid nonsensical thing ever. Why grown people are expected to go to a church every week and sit down, kneel and stand up for no apparent reason and then ramble off a few nonsense rhymes all the while listening to made up stories being told by a man who has zero life experience and yet preaches about children and marriage and vows and other sh?te he has no personal knowledge of is beyond comprehension.

I've been brought up RC myself and like many you mention above wouldnjave issues with what in particular the RC church preach on a Sunday.
Many "Catholics" think priests should marry for real world experience, that women should be priests, few believe the Eucharist becomes body and blood, few believe Mary was a virgin. Truth is many, many "Catholics" like this, including myself are actually Protestants because of their beliefs.
Myself religion is so far down on my life priorities that I couldn't bother changing, but my religious thinking as above would indeed be more aligned with Protestant teachings than Catholic teachings.

Rubberchikken

they have no more proof of a god than any other religion nor, imo, are they finished in ireland.
it's so 'on' at the moment to bash the catholic church here and worldwide while bowing down to the muslim faith. people are afriad to speak negatively about it for fear of comeback. the catholic church takes the bashings handed out to it, it doesn't threaten to bomb/maim/kill anyone who,speaks out against it. in fact, it's open to criticism from all.

Dr Crayfish

What's this thing where if you're anti-Catholicism and atheist people come into these threads and start saying you're trying to be edgy and cool? Seriously it's just odd?!? It must be great to be able to believe in fiction if it makes you feel more comfortable about dying, I'm sure I'll just be sh*tting myself thinking of the eternal blackness that lies ahead, but I just can't get my head around how you can believe what are basically fairy tales.
Anyway, I can't understand why anyone believes in God but yes no one nowadays would trust their children around priests etc and they hopefully wouldn't get away with it any more so all that stuff hopefully is dead and buried. I wish they had nothing to do with our schools and hospitals but that's just another one on my list of things that are wrong with this country.
I've no kids but if I ever did I'd like to think I could raise them without any religious influence and let them make their own minds up on these things.

infogiver

chillin117 wrote: »

If they do, Thats fine, The point I am trying to make is, Ruling through fear is gone, Never to return.

The ruling through fear is gone.
The RCC is not nor will it ever be gone in Ireland.
Humans are programmed to worship and humanity can be divided in 3 tribes.
Libertarian ( worship themselves) Communists (worship the State) and Conservatives (worship a deity).
There will always be enough conservatives here to ensure the survival of the Church.

Dr Crayfish

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If the word Catholic was replaced with Muslim, Jew, traveller, transgender, red cards be handed out.

Well, none of the above are famous for widespread child abuse or oppressing this nation are they?

infogiver

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

What's this thing where if you're anti-Catholicism and atheist people come into these threads and start saying you're trying to be edgy and cool? Seriously it's just odd?!? It must be great to be able to believe in fiction if it makes you feel more comfortable about dying, I'm sure I'll just be sh*tting myself thinking of the eternal blackness that lies ahead, but I just can't get my head around how you can believe what are basically fairy tales.
Anyway, I can't understand why anyone believes in God but yes no one nowadays would trust their children around priests etc and they hopefully wouldn't get away with it any more so all that stuff hopefully is dead and buried. I wish they had nothing to do with our schools and hospitals but that's just another one on my list of things that are wrong with this country.
I've no kids but if I ever did I'd like to think I could raise them without any religious influence and let them make their own minds up on these things.

I hope that if you do have kids that you have the sense not to leave them unsupervised around ANY adults unaccompanied by at least 1 other adult.
Because Jimmy Savile and the football coach WERENT priests.

Yourself isit

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well, none of the above are famous for widespread child abuse or oppressing this nation are they?

Depends on which nation you are talking about.

Huntergonzo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well you could reason with them if you actually had a point. Your point that children are taught creationism over science just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, particularly when it's weighed against the point that were it not for the education I for one received at both primary and secondary level, I would have been unlikely to progress to third level where I studied computer science and have been working in the area of software development for the last 20 odd years.

I don't have an issue with my child being a product of the same education system you're so quick to scorn which is why I for one would look at you if you came out with such nonsense as though you're a bit out of touch with reality.

They are taught creationism over science, there's nothing to debate there.

Fairplay if you done well, many people do well, many don't (that's life), but how is you specifically doing well an endorsement for teaching creationism over science? I've honestly yet to see a credible argument for that, and I'm not trying to be smart or get personal, I genuinely mean that.

Personally I felt my primary education was an embarrassment, yes I liked it at the time but when I got to secondary and started reading real science books for the first time and doing my own research (because I'm interested science and astronomy etc) I realised how much of my primary education was an utter waste of time!

Dr Crayfish

Also this is a watershed moment in boards history. 5 pages in, on a Catholicism thread, and no arsehole has come along and quoted Father Ted, thinking their absolutely hilarious. Give yourselves a round of applause.

p.s. I know I'm opening myself to I'll put your head through a wall etc etc, so knock yourselves out.

infogiver

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well, none of the above are famous for widespread child abuse or oppressing this nation are they?

What religion were the men who groomed and raped children in Rochdale?

Depp

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well, none of the above are famous for widespread child abuse or oppressing this nation are they?

this has to be a joke? seriously? don't want to turn this into an islam bashing thread but come on like...

Huntergonzo

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Also this is a watershed moment in boards history. 5 pages in, on a Catholicism thread, and no arsehole has come along and quoted Father Ted, thinking their absolutely hilarious. Give yourselves a round of applause.

p.s. I know I'm opening myself to I'll put your head through a wall etc etc, so knock yourselves out.

ARSE BISCUITS!!!

Dr Crayfish

infogiver wrote: »

I hope that if you do have kids that you have the sense not to leave them unsupervised around ANY adults unaccompanied by at least 1 other adult.
Because Jimmy Savile and the football coach WERENT priests.

Is that a thing now? Everyone is a suspected paedo to my (non existent) kid if they're not with another adult? Even my brother or dad?!?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well, none of the above are famous for widespread child abuse or oppressing this nation are they?

I think you need to think a bit more about that. Mass killing of ethnic groups, child slavery, suppression lf basic human rights on grounds of gender religion and sexual orientation, people trafficking, and worse have been attributed to some of them.

Dr Crayfish

Depp wrote: »

this has to be a joke? seriously? don't want to turn this into an islam bashing thread but come on like...

I don't get it, what? Are we being oppressed by Islam?

Beyondgone

Here was me thinking it was an epic week because Edna had deigned to go off cycling/golfing/taking cruises.. Now to hear the Catholic church has called it a day! Wow! Interesting times.

Was there a vote? Did the Nuns not object?? Why isn't it on The Journal??

Depp

chillin117 wrote: »

Nobody bashing the church, Just an observation, Now come down from that High Horse, It's Dangerous ! ffs ! Did I hit a (deeply engraved) nerve ?
It will take a while for this to ''Wash Out''

the thread title asks directly if you are happy to see the demise of the church? hardly a pro church thread is it? the concept is done to death on here and its getting very boring.

Dr Crayfish

It is boring alright this discussion. Some people like to believe in make believe and some people don't. I do envisage an Ireland in 50 years where the church is totally separate and that's progress. Or maybe global warming will make us all poor and hungry again and we'll suddenly need to start believing in God...

infogiver

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Is that a thing now? Everyone is a suspected paedo to my (non existent) kid if they're not with another adult? Even my brother or dad?!?

Over 90% of child abuse occurs within the family.
I would hope at this stage that everyone would know that.
If you are ushering your child protectively past the Presbytery door and then letting her go for a sleepover to another child's house without batting an eyelid then you are criminally neglectful.

Beyondgone

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I don't get it, what? Are we being oppressed by Islam?

Not yet. But give it time. I for one am wondering how the whole "You have to grow a beard" thing will play out. I grow rubbish facial hair.:(
The Missus is in two minds about the Burqa. A bit of her reckons it'll be epic for bad hair days/I'm feeling a little bloated moments. The other bit wonders will the cut of it make her ar5e look big. I'm just dreading the whole "praying 5 times a day, no smoking and no drinking" part. It'll take 20 weeks of rehab and cold turkey to get me in line with that part.:(

blueser

Finished?

Depp

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

It is boring alright this discussion. Some people like to believe in make believe and some people don't. I do envisage an Ireland in 50 years where the church is totally separate and that's progress. Or maybe global warming will make us all poor and hungry again and we'll suddenly need to start believing in God...

I agree with this a complete seperation of church and state is the way forward, as do most who people of faith, but theres no need for the arrogance, theres more to belief in a higher power than make believe no need to be an arse about it.

One eyed Jack

Huntergonzo wrote: »

They are taught creationism over science, there's nothing to debate there.

Fairplay if you done well, many people do well, many don't (that's life), but how is you specifically doing well an endorsement for teaching creationism over science? I've honestly yet to see a credible argument for that, and I'm not trying to be smart or get personal, I genuinely mean that.

Personally I felt my primary education was an embarrassment, yes I liked it at the time but when I got to secondary and started reading real science books for the first time and doing my own research (because I'm interested science and astronomy etc) I realised how much of my primary education was an utter waste of time!

I can't tell if it's your misunderstanding of Catholicism, Creationism, or Science is at fault here, but rest assured your point here -

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The most tragic thing though is the stone age bullshít children are subjected to on a daily basis in our publicly funded primary schools. They're taught faith based creationism (in other words foundationless fairy stories) over scientific fact.....tragic.

Is simply incorrect.

From what I can tell of the rest of your post, you developed an interest in science in secondary school (a bit late to the table, I was interested in science in primary school myself), and now in primary school it's part of the national curriculum as Social, Environmental and Scientific Education (SESE).

You see, I love science, I'm all over science, anything I can get my hands on, but I also enjoy studying religion, languages, cultures, the Arts (politics is a bit meh, but it's a necessary component of studying sociology which is a social science!), and rather than take the point of view that they have to contradict and conflict with each other, my mind just happens to have enough processing power if you will, to be able to compartmentalise the various concepts in all of these different fields.

None of which would have been possible had I not received the minimum standard of education required by the State in an educational facility of my parents choosing (well, my mother was a teacher in the primary school I attended!), as was their right as my parents, a right protected by the Irish Constitution.

You shouldn't be embarrassed by your education either, it's given you the means to be able to communicate your ideas to other people, some who may agree with you, and some who may not. That same rationale would obviously apply to any number of subjects.

Huntergonzo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is simply incorrect.

From what I can tell of the rest of your post, you developed an interest in science in secondary school (a bit late to the table, I was interested in science in primary school myself), and now in primary school it's part of the national curriculum as Social, Environmental and Scientific Education (SESE).

Bit presumptuous and smug I must say One eyed Jack, how do you know I wasn't interested in science in primary school? And also how do you know much time and interest my primary school dedicated to science? The answer is very little by the way, but religion and the Catholic creation story was given a substantial amount of time.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You see, I love science, I'm all over science, anything I can get my hands on, but I also enjoy studying religion, languages, cultures, the Arts (politics is a bit meh, but it's a necessary component of studying sociology which is a social science!), and rather than take the point of view that they have to contradict and conflict with each other, my mind just happens to have enough processing power if you will, to be able to compartmentalise the various concepts in all of these different fields.

None of which would have been possible had I not received the minimum standard of education required by the State in an educational facility of my parents choosing (well, my mother was a teacher in the primary school I attended!), as was their right as my parents, a right protected by the Irish Constitution.

You shouldn't be embarrassed by your education either, it's given you the means to be able to communicate your ideas to other people, some who may agree with you, and some who may not. That same rationale would obviously apply to any number of subjects.

Sorry I'm too stupid to understand all those purty words and sentences, can you please dumb it down for little ole me?

Yourself isit

Huntergonzo wrote: »

They are taught creationism over science, there's nothing to debate there.

Fairplay if you done well, many people do well, many don't (that's life), but how is you specifically doing well an endorsement for teaching creationism over science? I've honestly yet to see a credible argument for that, and I'm not trying to be smart or get personal, I genuinely mean that.

Personally I felt my primary education was an embarrassment, yes I liked it at the time but when I got to secondary and started reading real science books for the first time and doing my own research (because I'm interested science and astronomy etc) I realised how much of my primary education was an utter waste of time!

Where is creationism taught in Irish schools?

Huntergonzo

Yourself isit wrote: »

Where is creationism taught in Irish schools?

In the ones with a religious ethos, which is most of them.

lazybones32

Church is far from finished; it might currently be in decline in attendance etc; but that means squat. Foreign missionaries will come to ireland if needed.
An institution that's been here for about 1,400 years won't disappear quickly.

Saudi Arabia, China, N Korea and the Maldives are the only Countries without a RCC presence. China has a State controlled version; NK has a church but no known priest (underground church most likely); can't remember the maldives story and the Saudi's have no churches but Mass is celebrated in consulates - which are foreign soil, so doesn't count.

The RCC is global: don't expect it to disappear.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biscuitus

In 20 years the majority of priests in Ireland will be dead with no replacements leaving countless churches unmanned and empty. If you want to go to mass you will have to go a few towns over. Need a wedding or baptism, join an even lengthier queue for a one-on-one or pair up with a crowd of others on a Sunday morning. Your local priest will be a county celebrity at that stage but it will do no good.

Good riddance.

Edit: It is nice to be born into a religious country where you have the freedom to very loosely follow it and even openly reject it.

Yourself isit

Huntergonzo wrote: »

In the ones with a religious ethos, which is most of them.

Really? What do you mean by creationism. I most definitely learned evolution in school, which like most Irish schools had a religious ethos.

One eyed Jack

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Bit presumptuous and smug I must say One eyed Jack, how do you know I wasn't interested in science in secondary school?

I never said you weren't?

From my reading of your post, by your own admission you developed an interest in science in secondary school?

I wasn't either being smug nor presumptuous?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

And also how do you know much time and interest my primary school dedicated to science? The answer is very little by the way, but religion and the Catholic creation story was given a substantial amount of time.

I don't know, but I never made any comment on how much time and interest your primary school dedicated to science, I assumed that when you said this -

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The most tragic thing though is the stone age bullshít children are subjected to on a daily basis in our publicly funded primary schools. They're taught faith based creationism (in other words foundationless fairy stories) over scientific fact.....tragic.

You weren't just talking about your own experience?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Sorry I'm too stupid to understand all those purty words and sentences, can you please dumb it down for little ole me?

I don't think you're at all stupid HG, and I'm not sure I could make it much simpler. Your being unable to comprehend what I said wouldn't mean you were stupid either, it just means it might take you more time to read what's been said is all. It's an issue I often struggle with myself. I don't expect you to apologise for it either.

infogiver

Beyondgone wrote: »

Not yet. But give it time. I for one am wondering how the whole "You have to grow a beard" thing will play out. I grow rubbish facial hair.:(
The Missus is in two minds about the Burqa. A bit of her reckons it'll be epic for bad hair days/I'm feeling a little bloated moments. The other bit wonders will the cut of it make her ar5e look big. I'm just dreading the whole "praying 5 times a day, no smoking and no drinking" part. It'll take 20 weeks of rehab and cold turkey to get me in line with that part.:(

The Ramadan. Please. Up at 3.30am cooking a fry and not even a glass of water till 10pm

infogiver

Yourself isit wrote: »

Where is creationism taught in Irish schools?

In huntergonzos fevered imagination

Beyondgone

lazybones32 wrote: »

Church is far from finished; it might currently be in decline in attendance etc; but that means squat. Foreign missionaries will come to ireland if needed.
An institution that's been here for about 1,400 years won't disappear quickly.

Saudi Arabia, China, N Korea and the Maldives are the only Countries without a RCC presence. China has a State controlled version; NK has a church but no known priest (underground church most likely); can't remember the maldives story and the Saudi's have no churches but Mass is celebrated in consulates - which are foreign soil, so doesn't count.

The RCC is global: don't expect it to disappear.

So is the Mafia.
I don't know which is worse.

Huntergonzo

Yourself isit wrote: »

Really? What do you mean by creationism. I most definitely learned evolution in school, which like most Irish schools had a religious ethos.

You've never heard of creationism?

There was no evolution taught in my primary school (an average, run of the mill, local publicly funded school), it was noah's ark, burning bushes and loaves and dishes all the way, my secondary did teach evolution though (again a local publicly funded school).

Depp

infogiver wrote: »

The Ramadan. Please. Up at 3.30am cooking a fry and not even a glass of water till 10pm

telling you one thing they better be turkey rashers and sausages or there'll be trouble

boombang

Are primary schools really teaching 2.5 hours a week of religion on average?

That seems huge. Half an hour a day (on average) is a fairly hefty proportion. I can think of a lot of better stuff to be learning than religion.

maryishere

_Brian wrote: »

I've been brought up RC myself and like many you mention above wouldnjave issues with what in particular the RC church preach on a Sunday.
Many "Catholics" think priests should marry for real world experience, that women should be priests, few believe the Eucharist becomes body and blood, few believe Mary was a virgin. Truth is many, many "Catholics" like this, including myself are actually Protestants because of their beliefs.
Myself religion is so far down on my life priorities that I couldn't bother changing, but my religious thinking as above would indeed be more aligned with Protestant teachings than Catholic teachings.

Well said. Its no harm that the Roman Catholic Church with its track record on contraception, child abuse, cover-ups etc is on the decline.