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Kill your babies - Super Nintendo edition

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    ACTRAISER
    ALADDIN
    AXELAY
    CASTLEVANIA: VAMPIRE'S KISS (DRACULA X)
    CONTRA 3 - THE ALIEN WARS
    COOL SPOT

    DEMON'S CREST
    DESERT STRIKE: RETURN TO THE GULF
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 3 - DIXIE KONG'S DOUBLE TROUBLE
    EARTHWORM JIM
    F-ZERO
    GOOF TROOP

    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    INTERNATIONAL SUPERSTAR SOCCER DELUXE
    KILLER INSTINCT

    THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: A LINK TO THE PAST
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    THE LION KING
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    THE MAGICAL QUEST STARRING MICKEY MOUSE
    MEGA MAN X
    MORTAL KOMBAT 2
    MORTAL KOMBAT 3

    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    PUZZLE BOBBLE
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    R-TYPE III - THE THIRD LIGHTNING
    SECRET OF MANA
    SHADOWRUN
    STAR FOX
    STREET FIGHTER II TURBO - HYPER FIGHTING
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER DOUBLE DRAGON
    SUPER GHOULS 'N GHOSTS
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO KART
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER MARIO WORLD 2 - YOSHI'S ISLAND
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER STAR WARS
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES IV - TURTLES IN TIME
    TETRIS ATTACK
    WILD GUNS

    Tetris Attack is not even as good as actual Tetris.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,707 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    ======
    Hope you don't mind I changed the formatting, but it was impossible to read for me (removed all the killed games).

    ---
    Anyway: Killing Actraiser!
    No idea how it survived for so long.
    Game really hasn't aged well, yeah it has good graphics & sound but it's just boring to play in the modern age.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Aw. I love actraiser. The sum stages are a bit simplistic and the platforming is clunky but I feel the game is better than the sum of its parts. And that Yuzo koshiro soundtrack!

    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS


    Killing Sunset Riders. It's no where near as good as the arcade game and feel there's better shooters such as Contra.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Killing Sunset Riders. It's no where near as good as the arcade game and feel there's better shooters such as Contra.

    touche Retro...touche, we are now even on the super mario world 2 killing. I adored the snes version of sunset riders. Even as a mega drive kid I would admit without question how much more I loved the snes version.


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Killing street racer because honestly as this point having a fake snes game on the list is just getting embarrassing. This was on so many formats and even its best version (the saturn version) was pretty dull.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,847 ✭✭✭✭ShaneU


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS


    Killing Super Adventure Island. Again, better platformers on there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Super Bomberman was an embarrassment.

    With the old Bomberman games we thought that the slowness that was making it bad, but then they sped it up and it was still boring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    ~19 remain from from ~55, it's hotting up :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭SeantheMan


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Gonna be controversial and a d1ck and take out Mario All-stars.
    Just a collection of previous Mario games, and sure WORLD is there anyways which is as good as 3 and gave us Yoshi.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    As good as it was, Super Mario World was surpassed in every way by Yoshi's Island. It doesn't deserve a place on this list.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Make People Hate you - Super Nintendo edition

    This is getting to the stage now where 90% of posters won't have played 90% of the games left

    Only even recognise ~50% of the games left by name, never mind having played them


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    I'm afraid this is getting to the stage now where 99% of posters won't have plated 90% of the games left

    There are 4 games left that I've played. I can't get rid of the ones I haven't played and I don't want to get rid of the ones I have so...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Banjo wrote: »
    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Killing THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA

    Yeah it's weird, quirky, odd, got lots of mad Japanese stuff, but well if we're binning Super Mario World & All Stars, well this niche madness can go too. N64 version wasn't any great shakes either. A game memorable more for it's silliness rather than gameplay
    There are 4 games left that I've played. I can't get rid of the ones I haven't played and I don't want to get rid of the ones I have so...

    Same here, I love some of the ones that are left (but I won't say which cause of revenge killing :pac:)

    Google them. Worst Game Cover? Kill It :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    SeantheMan wrote: »
    Gonna be controversial and a d1ck and take out Mario All-stars.
    Just a collection of previous Mario games, and sure WORLD is there anyways which is as good as 3 and gave us Yoshi.
    Banjo wrote: »
    As good as it was, Super Mario World was surpassed in every way by Yoshi's Island. It doesn't deserve a place on this list.

    I am possibly the biggest d*ck in this thread seeing these 2 posts :D

    but I stand by my choice baby mario needed to be aborted for the sake of my ears.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Killing rock n Roll racing. Blizzard did a much much better snes game with The Three Vikings and RnR is a lot of dazzle (soundtrack, digitised voices etc) on a game design that wasnt a huge leap from other stuff we've seen on earlier 8 bit consoles. It really is a perfect example of a lot of sizzle selling the experience.

    Also it is yet again another game that has gotten very far thats not really a snes exclusive (though this time unlike jungle strike the snes version is a lot better then the mega drive version)

    I've played most of the remaining games, though not all the way through. I think Axelay and Lufia the only I've never heard of or played.

    I know Illusion of Gaia but never played it.

    Everything else I've played to some extent, though some not on snes (nba jam on mega drive and wild guns I played the recent re-release) so i dont know if either count.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    F**k. I was hoping Rock and Roll racing was gonna win :(

    Now it'll be some weird unknown instead


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    F**k. I was hoping Rock and Roll racing was gonna win :(

    Now it'll be some weird unknown instead

    only if someone gets the balls to sacrifice all credibility to kill super metroid.

    Unlike yoshi's island's crying mario I cant identify any personal dislike for metroid to justify killing it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    More people need to play Axelay. It's an incredible shooter by Konami, far better than UN Squadron which gets all the love. UN Squadron is great but it's no Axelay.

    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Aaaaawwwwoooooo
    Aaaaaaawwoooooo!!!

    What's that noise, is it the 5-0?

    Nope it's the framerate police.

    Starfox is a great game but the 10 frames per second it runs at make it very hard to love.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    And here I thought Retro was going to be crazy enough to do it.

    I knew star wing was gonna go. There's a reason why all the memes spawned from Lylat Wars instead (because it is so much better and if we were doing an N64 version of this list I'd fight every one of you who tried to kill it)


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Getting down to the meaty stuff now. Cutting NBA Jam because it always felt like a game that was better suited to the Megadrive. Maybe it was the three-button layout of the Megadrive controller but something always felt off about NBA Jam on the SNES.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Yeah, it needed the extra processing oomph the megadrive had and the SNES usually lacked in animation since pixel work took more memory on that system due to the expanded colour palette.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭SeantheMan


    Banjo wrote: »
    As good as it was, Super Mario World was surpassed in every way by Yoshi's Island. It doesn't deserve a place on this list.


    Yoshi's Island wasn't on the list.
    I was at least trying to leave 1 mario game ....
    There are 4 games left that I've played. I can't get rid of the ones I haven't played and I don't want to get rid of the ones I have so...

    I'm also at that stage, except it's not even games I've played. Just ones I recognize now.
    I think I played Donkey and that's it.
    So I'm gonna bow out now as my participation would be random acts of killing and not in the spirit of the game....as I can't justify one over the other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    ACTRAISER
    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    HARVEST MOON
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    THE LEGEND OF THE MYSTICAL NINJA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    NBA JAM
    PILOTWINGS
    ROCK'N'ROLL RACING
    SECRET OF MANA
    STAR FOX
    STREET RACER
    SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND
    SUPER BOMBERMAN
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER MARIO ALL-STARS
    SUPER MARIO WORLD
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    SUNSET RIDERS
    WILD GUNS

    Killing off Harvest Moon, as the life/farm sim just bored me after quite a short while, and it just doesn't stand up to the others on the list that I do know (and love)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    What's left is fairly Grim. How can we kill that which we do not know?

    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    PILOTWINGS
    SECRET OF MANA
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    WILD GUNS


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Not sure how people don't know any of those games. It's a pretty great list of the Super Nintendo's best.

    The only 2 that might be a bit out there is Demon's Crest, which is pretty well known now as a hidden gem on the system and Lufia 2 which should be more well known in Europe as it's one of the few JRPGs to make it to Europe and is considered one of the very best on the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Lufia 2 which should be more well known in Europe as it's one of the few JRPGs to make it to Europe and is considered one of the very best on the system.

    By who though? The Grand Council of 100 SNES Elite?

    I never got into RPG/JRPGs back in the SNES days but I had definitely heard about Illusion of Gaia and Secret of Mana. And having watched many a "Hidden Gem" type series on Youtube (Stop Skeletons from Fighting, Clan of the Grey Wolf) I've never heard it even mentioned, not once, never mind having any type of positive feedback.
    Sure it can be a Critics Favourite but that doesn't make it one of the best if we never heard of it never mind played it. If there's as many of us here in our late 20s onwards that ain't even heard of it, it should be gone off the list, people are killing Super Mario World in Liue of that weird niche stuff.

    Demons Crest I believe I had only heard of from one of the two YT channels mentioned above as being a few degrees separated from Ghosts and Ghouls.

    I've heard of all the rest but not played them, with the exception of 2. I've played Castlevania 4 and Donkey Kong Country 2. But I've both only played each once, and a long time ago. So I don't know what was so good about DKC2 to have it remain, so it would be unfair of me to cut it comparing it to Castlevania, as honestly, I can barely even remember it. And objectively it may have been an awesome game.

    If I was stuck on a Desert Island and wanted to pick one game, I don't know what kind of Longevity Super Punch out would have


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    Retr0gamer wrote:
    Not sure how people don't know any of those games. It's a pretty great list of the Super Nintendo's best.


    Despite not being released here I bet more have played Chrono Trigger than have heard of Illusion of Gaia or Lufia II.
    That Link to the Past was gone so early & Donkey Kong Country 2 is there now doesn't do the final few any favours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,707 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    ERG89 wrote: »
    Despite not being released here I bet more have played Chrono Trigger than have heard of Illusion of Gaia or Lufia II.
    That Link to the Past was gone so early & Donkey Kong Country 2 is there now doesn't do the final few any favours.

    DKC2 is one of the greatest platformers of all time.
    Fight me.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Well all I can say is it's not my fault you haven't played or remember any of these games. You can look at as many top hidden gems videos on youtube but youtube is hardly a bastion of informed videogame opinions and anyone doing top hidden gem videos probably doesn't really know what they are talking about anyway.

    Anyway here's no use complaining to me about the games that are left. I only recommended Demon's Crest, none of the others. The everything on that list other than Demon's Crest and Lufia 2 were massively popular games on the SNES or well known (not counting wild guns, it's rare but well known as a great SNES game and it had a recent remake on PS4 as well). There's kind of no excuse for not having played them if you know your SNES games.

    The list has become Sophie's Choice now. That's also not my fault and pretty much the entire point of this thread anyway. It's meant to be a bit of fun anyway and the only reason to get truly annoyed is when someone is dumb enough to vote out Super Metroid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    AXELAY
    DEMON'S CREST
    DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 2 - DIDDY'S KONG QUEST
    ILLUSION OF GAIA
    LUFIA II - RISE OF THE SINISTRALS
    PILOTWINGS
    SECRET OF MANA
    SUPER CASTLEVANIA IV
    SUPER METROID
    SUPER PUNCH-OUT!!
    SUPER TURRICAN
    WILD GUNS

    Super Punch out.

    Is my issue that its short? No. Some great games are short.

    Is my issue that it feels like a polished NES port? No. Graphics aren't everything.

    Is my issue that it was difficult? No. It needed to be hard because it was essentially only a one player game.

    Is my issue that it was one player? No. The single player mode is deep enough that it stands on its own.

    My problem was that the game went down the cartoony route but saddled us with the worst two final bosses of all time. I don't care if I beat Nick/Rick Bruiser. Who even are they?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    It's not a personal complaint Retro, I just think there's a few titles that are niche that are making it hard cause no ones played them.

    Which reminds me, I should get Wild Guns on PS4

    Can someone boot up a Rom of Lufia for 30 seconds os they can Kill it? :pac:


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