Buses and bicycles - whats the story

NeedMoreGears

As far as I can see from SI 294 of 1964 (I cant seem to locate a more up to date version)

22.—(1) When starting from a stationary position a driver shall yield the right of way to other traffic and pedestrians

This appears to be the legal requirement - I couldn't locate a provision that gave an exemption to buses or imposed an obligation on other drivers (which definition includes the person cycling a bike) to yield when a bus has signalled an intent to pull out. Having said that , it makes sense to me that drivers should let buses out as a matter of courtesy - but the fact remains that other drivers are not obliged to yield the right of way to a bus in the circumstances described.

I love Sean nos

dashcamdanny wrote: »

By overtaking you put enlightening passengers at risk.

Could you give examples of how this is done? Do you give lectures or hand out audiobooks for the journey?

plodder

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way too early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

I emailed Dublin Bus about this exact issue several months ago, and in fairness whoever replied got that it's not acceptable behaviour. It only annoys people who are happy to let buses out (drivers and cyclists) with the result they don't bother in future. They said they would put up a notice in the depot about it.

As far as I was aware, there isn't any legal obligation to let buses pull out. The relevant statement in the ROTR would say "must" rather than "should" if there were. Though I think it should be mandatory.

Wishbone Ash

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This does happen. There are reasons for it. The two main reasons are

1. The door brake on the bus. We hit the close door button and indicator at the same time. Some buses close the door quick and its never a problem. Other buses with 2 doors or a slow door that will not release the brakes until everything is shut up tight. a few seconds.
2. A passenger thumbing for change or asking questions when you expect them to be in their seat and you are letting the hand brake off.. ..


And I nearly forgot. some buses will not release the brakes unless the suspension is full up. The driver is trying to go, but the bus says no.

Danny - I used to drive buses and I agree that they all 'behave' differently. However the simple solution is to wait until the doors have closed, the floor has risen and the parking brake has released before activating the indicator.

As others have said, it is recommended that other road users allow buses to pull out but it is not a statutory requirement. You are legally obliged to wait until it is clear and safe.

ThisRegard

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As the original question stated. Why not? The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

It also says I should pull out safely. If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

Are you really a bus driver?! FWIW I more often than not let buses out when I'm driving, but you're not entitled to pull out and force cyclists or any traffic to stop to enable you do so. As a professional driver you shouldn't even have had to ask in the first place if people on bikes are traffic.

I love Sean nos

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

That's not true.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

And took exception to it.

Fancy that.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Swearing and making plonker out of himself in front of a packed bus.

Unlike the driver of the bus, who almost caused a collision in front of said passengers, while supposedly transporting them safely.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just wondering who is in the right.

Doesn't matter. You're not allowed to drive your bus into or over people. If you have any doubt about this matter, ask your company instructor/trainer.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Are bikes considered traffic?

Yes.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday.

Thanks for joining a thread in a cycling forum about near misses, holding up your hand and saying, "It's me. I cause them."

Hrududu

mr spuckler wrote: »

at some point we need to reset and remember that we're in a thread discussing near misses. it seems to get derailed very frequently!

Yes can this be taken to a new thread?

dashcamdanny

I love Sean nos wrote: »

That's not true.


Fancy that.


Unlike the driver of the bus, who almost caused a collision in front of said passengers, while supposedly transporting them safely.


Doesn't matter. You're not allowed to drive your bus into or over people. If you have any doubt about this matter, ask your company instructor/trainer.


Yes.


Thanks for joining a thread in a cycling forum about near misses, holding up your hand and saying, "It's me. I cause them."

Since ya put so much effort into that quote, I thought the least I could do is reply...
As i said .. and you quoted.. I was in the middle of a manover. Its genrally a good idea for a bike or car to stop and not continue until its safe to do so. I cant see behind the bus.
Thanks for your kind words though. You sound like a nice fella..

Corca Baiscinn

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Could you give examples of how this is done? Do you give lectures or hand out audiobooks for the journey?

I don't like this belittling of a poster who makes an error and uses the wrong word. What about all the Boards advice about not playing the man? it's clear Danny meant alighting, so why not just disagree with his point instead of making snide remarks

I love Sean nos

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

I don't like this belittling of a poster who makes an error and uses the wrong word. What about all the Boards advice about not playing the man? it's clear Danny meant alighting, so why not just disagree with his point instead of making snide remarks

I wasn't belittling him, I took his statement at face value rather than assuming he meant something different. Why do you feel the need to score points by drawing attention to my misunderstanding of what he meant to say?

dashcamdanny

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I wasn't belittling him, I took his statement at face value rather than assuming he meant something different. Why do you feel the need to score points by drawing attention to my misunderstanding of what he meant to say?

Its ok. As a bus driver I have developed a thick skin. I am using a phone so its trying to correct my bad grammmmer.

Ok. So a situation where it could be considered dangerous would be exiting passengers running in front of a bus and making a dive across the road.
School kids do this more so than others.
I believe for this very reason in the states all traffic must stop behind a bus.

punisher5112

If pulling into a stop cyclists must yield.

Its not a rule on the pulling out but people are asked to be considerate and allow a bus out.

Yellow boxes at the end of bus lanes are fitted for the reason as most will block the bus even with the yellow box.

If a bus has indicated and already safely pulled out and is in traffic lane then bus is in lane.

Simple rule to all on the road if you can't see me or my mirror then quite simply I can't see you.

Cyclists will stay as far left to the last second then pull out which means when in a large vehicle they can't be seen and also remember the bigger the vehicle the more blind spots it has.

I love Sean nos

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was in the middle of a manover. Its genrally a good idea for a bike or car to stop and not continue until its safe to do so. I cant see behind the bus.

This isn't a gameshow; "I've started so I'll finish" is not appropriate. If a manoeuvre is unsafe half way through, it's likely that it was unsafe at the beginning and started in error. Regardless, if a manoeuvre becomes unsafe, you cease. You don't blunder on. This is basic stuff, covered in private car and motorcycle training. I'm surprised that it's not covered in bus driver training. Taxis...they're another bunch of LOLs, but I have higher expectations of bus drivers because it's a larger vehicle and carrying people.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Thanks for your kind words though. You sound like a nice fella..

I'm grand really. Perhaps a bit touchy if bullied by a bus as a roaduser.

punisher5112

I love Sean nos wrote: »

This isn't a gameshow; "I've started so I'll finish" is not appropriate. If a manoeuvre is unsafe half way through, it's likely that it was unsafe at the beginning and started in error. Regardless, if a manoeuvre becomes unsafe, you cease. You don't blunder on. This is basic stuff, covered in private car and motorcycle training. I'm surprised that it's not covered in bus driver training. Taxis...they're another bunch of LOLs, but I have higher expectations of bus drivers because it's a larger vehicle and carrying people.


I'm grand really. Perhaps a bit touchy if bullied by a bus as a roaduser.

If one has pulled out safely the onus is then on traffic behind to pull back or slow down to a safe speed which should be adhered to anyway.

Just because someone is on a bicycle doesn't take away from that.

ED E

Funny how those paid to drive always have the least clue how to actually do it...

Wishbone Ash

punisher5112 wrote: »

If pulling into a stop cyclists must yield....

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say there - that cyclists must yield to a bus which is pulling up to a bus stop? You think a bus may pass a cyclist and then immediately pull into a stop? How about reading the road ahead and simply waiting behind the cyclist for a second or two and then pull in?

punisher5112

ED E wrote: »

Funny how those paid to drive always have the least clue how to actually do it...

Funny how the ones that don't have a licence believe they are always right.



Look this is something everyone needs to understand no matter what people make mistakes its never going to change but pedestrians and cyclists even if in the right its not the brightest idea to take on any vehicle of any size but especially a bus or truck as usually there is only one winner.

punisher5112

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say there - that cyclists must yield to a bus which is pulling up to a bus stop? You think a bus may pass a cyclist and then immediately pull into a stop? How about reading the road ahead and simply waiting behind the cyclist for a second or two and then pull in?

I apologise I wasn't clear.

No I do not condone above.

I mean in terms of say I'm driving along and indicate and am pulling in and haven't just flown past and darted in.


That is a sh1tty thing to do and unsafe what you have said.

Wishbone Ash

punisher5112 wrote: »

Funny how the ones that don't have a licence believe they are always right..

I have a full clean driving licence in all 14 categories.

(and my bus licence is a proper unrestricted one unlike the ones most DB drivers have).

...and about 85% of cyclists are also motorists.

punisher5112

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I have a full clean driving licence in all 14 categories.

(and my bus licence is a proper unrestricted one unlike the ones most DB drivers have).

...and about 85% of cyclists are also motorists.

Excellent so what's your point.

I have a licence but not all categories but let's say a good few.

Like anything in life there are d1cks driving and cycling and walking.

Again no point been right and dead taking on a large vehicle.

punisher5112

Car license is probably the easiest to acquire and bus and truck the hardest with a cpc each year.

Driving standards are terrible and it seems lately a lot more in a hurry and highly stressed.

I find women have gotten a lot more aggressive and will not give an inch and pass in very bad situations even with oncoming traffic.

Victor

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Where does it say this?

http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

This book uses a ‘how to’ approach and covers many of the manoeuvres identified as factors in a road crash. It uses three methods to set out clearly and concisely how the law applies to all road users.
* It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.
* It uses terms such as should and should not to tell you how best to act in a situation where no legal rule is in place.
* It illustrates and describes traffic lights, road markings and the signs used to regulate traffic.

Taking care with buses and pedestrians
You should allow signalling buses back into the stream of traffic after they let passengers on and off.

Note that this is making a suggestion to other users, but places no obligation on them and gives you no right.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Are bikes considered traffic?

Yes. Everything except pedestrians (which includes prams, wheelchairs, etc.) is traffic.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

"traffic" does not include pedestrians;

dashcamdanny wrote: »

If I think they can stop safely or move away from me, I pull out.

If you are doing this, you are abusing your power as a driver. You should not force other users to do anything.

Some cyclist go mental and start swearing like crazy though.

They do this because you could very easily kill them.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As the original question stated. Why not? The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

"Should", not "must". Imagine the vehicle that is passing you is going too fast to stop by the time it gets to you. Imagine that vehicle is a large truck.

If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

An obligation on another user does not give you a right.

Its black and white in any other countries.

But we aren't in other countries. Other countries have monarchies or the death penalty, we don't.

As Ireland seems not to prioritize public transport, it leaves the area gray.

No grey area - you must not endanger yourself or others.

Wishbone Ash

punisher5112 wrote: »

Excellent so what's your point....

What's that you were saying about those that don't have a licence? Why would you assume cyclists don't have a licence?

punisher5112

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

What's that you were saying about those that don't have a licence? Why would you assume cyclists don't have a licence?

Ah here I never said that....

I didn't mean to come across like that if that's what you interpreted it like.

punisher5112

Victor there are occasions where the cyclist puts themselves in a dangerous position and these tend to be the ones that go looking for it.

They tend to push as hard as possible to catch up or pass on a bend or turn.

Simple rule do not pass a vehicle small or large on a bend or turn and seriously from what I see there are quite a few.

Luas works is another issue where roads are narrow and cones and barriers with no space but yet cyclists and pedestrians think its perfectly fine to pass on inside and outside.

No enforcement of laws already there so I wish they would stop coming out with new ones till they can sort ones already there.

HivemindXX

punisher5112 wrote: »

Funny how the ones that don't have a licence believe they are always right.

Look this is something everyone needs to understand no matter what people make mistakes its never going to change but pedestrians and cyclists even if in the right its not the brightest idea to take on any vehicle of any size but especially a bus or truck as usually there is only one winner.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ah here I never said that....

I didn't mean to come across like that if that's what you interpreted it like.

You did say that. Perhaps that's not what you meant. If so what did you mean by that "ones that don't have a licence" comment?

punisher5112

As in I've had many a warrior on and they have never held a licence.

Even in a place I worked where manager tried to tell me how to swerve and how to drive but here is the shocker.

He had no licence never sat the test so how could he be the right person to comment?

shootermacg

Car / bus / lorry drivers can harp on about how much of an annoyance bad cyclists are, but are they truly any risk to you?

No, not even on a blue moon.

Is a bad driver a risk to a cyclist? absolutely.
In fact a bad driver is a risk to every other mode of transport.

They are undeniable facts!

Plenty of cyclists and pedestrians have been mowed down this year through no fault of their own.
You can do absolutely everything right on a bike and still get killed by some idiot on a mobile phone or god forbid, some monkey with anger issues.

So all you lads quoting edge cases, go away and have a think about your world view, because it is flawed.

dashcamdanny

Victor wrote: »

Where does it say this?

http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

Note that this is making a suggestion to other users, but places no obligation on them and gives you no right.

Yes. Everything except pedestrians (which includes prams, wheelchairs, etc.) is traffic.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

If you are doing this, you are abusing your power as a driver. You should not force other users to do anything.

They do this because you could very easily kill them.

"Should", not "must". Imagine the vehicle that is passing you is going too fast to stop by the time it gets to you. Imagine that vehicle is a large truck.

An obligation on another user does not give you a right.

But we aren't in other countries. Other countries have monarchies or the death penalty, we don't.

No grey area - you must not endanger yourself or others.

I already quoted the paragraph Victor. Its there in black and white. Except the wording was wrong in my first post. You "should" not you "must" I think it page 53 . Im not at home to look .
I started this with a question on a cycli' st opinion on another thread. I really did not think it would get its own.
It would be hard for you to say if I was abusing my position without riding my bus. I have a 100 percent safaty record in 10 years of driving for a living. Not one collision. So I must be doing somthing right.. I always look out for cyclist. I am one myself.
As mentioned . I was started my manovier in a safe manor, when a cycle tryed to cut through . And got himself in a bit of a tight spot. He should have held back. As the rotr suggests. Let a bus pull out.
Why cant i use example what goes on in other countries who have a better public transport system to support an argument? And to show that maybe we are doing it wrong. Its relavent.

punisher5112

shootermacg wrote: »

Car / bus / lorry drivers can harp on about how much of an annoyance bad cyclists are, but are they truly any risk to you?

No, not even on a blue moon.

Is a bad driver a risk to a cyclist? absolutely.
In fact a bad driver is a risk to every other mode of transport.

They are undeniable facts!

Plenty of cyclists and pedestrians have been mowed down this year through no fault of their own.
You can do absolutely everything right on a bike and still get killed by some idiot on a mobile phone or god forbid, some monkey with anger issues.

So all you lads quoting edge cases, go away and have a think about your world view, because it is flawed.

Of course they are a risk.

Here are a few instances of a issue.....

1 they are killed how do you think the driver will feel.
2 they can cause the drive to have to take evasive action which in turn injures a passenger on board... Who is then blamed for this?? No you are wrong the driver will be at fault.

Its not on either way.