Buses and bicycles - whats the story

DanDublin1982

I find the majority of DB driver's grand but the coach drivers are a bit of a nightmare. I guess if you drive a DB you see and encounter cyclists all the time and especially on routes through the city.

The Quays are a nightmare to navigate the last few months and I'm really worried about how the proposed second bus lane might operate in practice if/when introduced. The very issue raised at the beginning of the thread will become very topical with buses jumping between bus lanes quite regularly.

Weepsie

The word is manoeuvre. That's been bothering me. Back on topic.

Bit more common sense and patience from all sides is all that's required

Kaisr Sose

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ah here I never said that....

I didn't mean to come across like that if that's what you interpreted it like.

It may not have been your intention but it read like that.

Cyclists don't have to have a licence but that does not mean they don't know the rules of the road and the law. The converse is true for motorists – having a licence does not mean they have a greater knowledge. Some seem to have less than a full grasp of them but posess a total lack of any cop on, or respect.

Always in a hurry to get ahead. One of the fundamentals of the rules of the road is to show respect to other road users and behave in a mature and responsible manner. Sometimes that can't be taught. Sobthose without this ability really have no place on the road - in any form of vehicle.

Tony EH

I've been cycling Dublin roads for about 25 years. It used to be a matter of politeness to stop and let an indicating bus out. In fact, there used to be signs on the back of the bus asking traffic to let the bus pull out.

Often, I'll stop when an indicating bus is showing its intent, assuming I have the actual space to perform the stop. Most bike brakes aren't instantaneous, as some motorists seem to think.

I've been of the opinion that Dublin Bus drivers were of a generally good quality and it's harder to drive one of those monsters than a lot of people spare a thought for. The driver's spatial awareness and concentration has to remain relatively high and he/she has people on board to think about too, never mind a schedule to keep to.

However, over the years, I think there's been a definte decline in standards. It might just be my perception, but a lot of DB drivers worry me these days. Recently, I had one overtake me and immediately pull into a stop, making me jam on the brakes and come to an inch away from belting into him. This dangerous crap was augmented by some idiot in an overtaking white Ford beeping at me as I gathered myself and tried to go around the bus!

I've also been left in limbo, looking at a flashing indicator and waiting for the bus to pull out, only to realise that the driver was still taking fares. Thus putting me in a "should I stay or should I go" situation, coupled with pissed off car drivers behind me and subsequently the bus. Not a comfortable moment, I can tell you.

luketitz

I'm concerned that the OP needs to ask 'are bikes considered traffic?' although the motivations of the post seem well intended for sure, the fact that this question is being asked is alarming and perhaps indicative of the decline in bus driving standards many mention in recent years (proliferance in knob cyclists certainly on the rise too, mind)

I would like to think that the status of cyclists gets some dedicated attention during bus driving learning courses seeing as they share the lanes throughout the city with what the most vulnerable road users and no match for a bus in the outcome of a rash manoeuvring decision - clearly not the case if this question needs to be asked, sadly.

ted1

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way to early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

Rules of the road clearly state that traffic should yield to an indicating bus pulling back into traffic.

There's rules of the road and then there's the law of the land. I have never heard of a law that says vehicles must yield to busses pulling out.

overshoot

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I already quoted the paragraph Victor. Its there in black and white. Except the wording was wrong in my first post. You "should" not you "must" I think it page 53 . Im not at home to look .

there is a massive legal difference between must and should. I might have only had a module in law but the lecturer drilled that one into us. The other was always go to the source. Your argument relies on a mere interpretation of legislation, which you're even making an error in reading.

It would be hard for you to say if I was abusing my position without riding my bus.

You have stated your abusing your position. You have stated you pull out if they can stop, but they do not have an obligation to stop. You do have one to merge safely.

Why cant i use example what goes on in other countries who have a better public transport system to support an argument? And to show that maybe we are doing it wrong. Its relavent.

Its not relevant to your question- who is right. The question was based in ireland and current legislation. Its legal to drive 200mph on sections of German motorway. Doesnt mean its legal here.
Obviously forms of transport which maximise density should be given priority but this is bikes and buses and we can learn from other countries... but that doesnt help you if you knock someone down tomorrow. Legislation cannot be retrospectively applied.

ted1

shootermacg wrote: »

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

You are parked for all intents and purposes and it's up to you to safely enter traffic. But you'll find cyclists will be more liable to let the bus out when they see an indicator, because you're blocking the cycle lane. Other traffic just want to be ahead of a bus, so that you're not holding them up at the next stop. That behavior becomes more ridiculous the nearer you get to town, because of the mad rush to get 10M down the road to the tail end of traffic.

I'm referencing to the N11 here, but there are certain bus drivers that indicate to pull out as soon as they open the door and as such their indicators are pointless and get ignored . Also on many roads cyclists and busses play lap frog. Bus drivers accelerate past cyclists only to pull in and then get over taking again.

ted1

punisher5112 wrote: »

ED E wrote: »

Funny how those paid to drive always have the least clue how to actually do it...

Funny how the ones that don't have a licence believe they are always right.



Look this is something everyone needs to understand no matter what people make mistakes its never going to change but pedestrians and cyclists even if in the right its not the brightest idea to take on any vehicle of any size but especially a bus or truck as usually there is only one winner.

Very condescending, you said must as if it's the law but it's not. So must is not the word to use.
Who is talking about taking on a vehicle ?

dashcamdanny

ted1 wrote: »

There's rules of the road and then there's the law of the land. I have never heard of a law that says vehicles SHOULD yield to busses pulling out.

This all maybe true.

Funny enough I have yet to meet a driving instructor to hand out The Irish statue law book as part of driver training. In any of my a b c or d lessons and tests.

Its a pity. We all should use that instead of the ROTR.

As I have said. LOADS of times here. But I will repeat it again for you.

It was a quote from the ROTR .. The book everyone uses in every class of licence . Then gets tested on by the NDLS. Our state testers. The exception being the cyclist.

The word should pops up 180 time in the rules of the road, is also states on the next paragraph in question:
Taking care with cyclists
If you are at a junction where there is an advanced stop line for cyclists, you
should allow cyclists to move off ahead of you.
Off course we should, just as traffic SHOULD give way to buses pulling out
Only a fool would do otherwise

ted1

dashcamdanny wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

There's rules of the road and then there's the law of the land. I have never heard of a law that says vehicles SHOULD yield to busses pulling out.

This all maybe true.

Funny enough I have yet to meet a driving instructor to hand out The Irish statue law book as part of driver training. In any of my a b c or d lessons and tests.

Its a pity. We all should use that instead of the ROTR.

As I have said. LOADS of times here. But I will repeat it again for you.

It was a quote from the ROTR .. The book everyone uses in every class of licence . Then gets tested on by the NDLS. Our state testers. The exception being the cyclist.

The word should pops up 180 time in the rules of the road, is also states on the next paragraph in question:
Taking care with cyclists
If you are at a junction where there is an advanced stop line for cyclists, you
should allow cyclists to move off ahead of you.
Off course we should, just as traffic SHOULD give way to buses pulling out
Only a fool would do otherwise

Why would only a fool ? A bus will likely pull in again in 200m.

Bus passengers don't even pay road tax, in fact they get subsided journeys. They should pay taxes for road usage. Haha good to be on the giving end for once.

flatface

I am happy to see this thread, it's appears like the OP came to this with a genuine question instead of the usual rants and entrenched ideas we see here. Please let us know if this discussion has answered your question or changed your viewpoint as that would be a success worth applauding.
I travel up and down the N11 daily and see plenty of respect between bus drivers and cyclists. Most give way to each other and I see plenty of common sense - e.g. A driver not opening his doors if a cyclist is approaching on the cycle lane, cyclists yielding to opening doors, buses waiting until safe points to overtake etc.
So mostly I want to say thanks to DB.

I think you should take from this that if a cyclist is in the process of overtaking for whatever reason you must yield.
The cause of the manoeuvre should not come into the reaction to it. It doesn't matter why is this cyclist overtaking, just since he is I must yield.
Likewise it shouldn't matter the reason why I may not be in a cyclelane (there are a few reasons for the ones I avoid) just since I am in the bus lane instead I must be overtaken with care and respect. Thanks.

1bryan

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I had an interesting one yesterday on Pearse St where I was cycling in the Bus Lane. A bus ahead of me was stationary, and I went to overtake it. However as I was overtaking (into the RHS lane) the bus took off, driving ahead in the bus lane. So then I had clear bus lane to my left again. I went to move back into it; however another bus was travelling fast along the lane and basically didn't slow down at all as the first bus had taken off - this was split second stuff and fortunately I had looked back and saw him coming.

I have submitted 2 separate complaints to Dublin bus for much the same thing, also on Pearse St. Having 2 bus lanes is a recipe for disaster, especially with cyclists who wish to turn onto Tara st.

Pinch Flat

I use pearse street daily on my way home - just take the right hand lane if you're heading right at the fire station.

Blahfool

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

I find the majority of DB driver's grand but the coach drivers are a bit of a nightmare. I guess if you drive a DB you see and encounter cyclists all the time and especially on routes through the city.

OP, what do you think of this point. It's my experience too. Only going up and down the quays a few months so hopefully have a while before confirmation bias really kicks in. Are coaches wider than buses? Because it sure feels like it. I find the give and take with DB drivers 99%(really) fine for navigating the busiest roads in the country in rush hour. But I feel like if I'm going to be flattened, it will be by a coach.

punisher5112

ted1 wrote: »

Very condescending, you said must as if it's the law but it's not. So must is not the word to use.
Who is talking about taking on a vehicle ?

What you on about????¿

foxatron

I find that half the time one major problem is that, our cycle lanes and bus lanes are in fact the same lane!
And when is a cycle lane not a cycle lane.....when cars, vans and every other type of vehicle just park in them. Hold on there for a second there Mr/ms driver while i swerve into the middle of the road so i can overtake this car parked arseways in the cycle lane.

beauf

dashcamdanny wrote: »

.. As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

... ..

I think there's a bit of 50:50 to this you shouldn't pull out in front of a cyclist and the cyclist should let you out and also shouldn't over take a bus pulling out. Sometimes it all happens too fast to prevent it. In which case we should all back off on the side of safety.

ED E

Tony EH wrote: »

However, over the years, I think there's been a definte decline in standards. It might just be my perception, but a lot of DB drivers worry me these days. Recently, I had one overtake me and immediately pull into a stop, making me jam on the brakes and come to an inch away from belting into him. This dangerous crap was augmented by some idiot in an overtaking white Ford beeping at me as I gathered myself and tried to go around the bus!

I've also been left in limbo, looking at a flashing indicator and waiting for the bus to pull out, only to realise that the driver was still taking fares. Thus putting me in a "should I stay or should I go" situation, coupled with pissed off car drivers behind me and subsequently the bus. Not a comfortable moment, I can tell you.

You can say that again.

amcalester

Two idiots in that clip.

shootermacg

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course they are a risk.

Here are a few instances of a issue.....

1 they are killed how do you think the driver will feel.
2 they can cause the drive to have to take evasive action which in turn injures a passenger on board... Who is then blamed for this?? No you are wrong the driver will be at fault.

Its not on either way.

No you seem to be confusing yourself there. They are no risk to you. It's your own actions in case 2 that cause the risk.

As for point 1, well get a grip, if you're sitting there parked and a cyclist slams into your bonnet, why would you feel wracked with guilt?

Now if you somehow drove over someone on the road, yeah, you really should feel that there may have been something you could do, because I've yet to see someone driving with due care and a safe speed that couldn't preempt running over a cyclist or pedestrian.

Just to set your mind at ease, cyclists, even bad ones do not appear out of thin air, 2 meters in front of your car bonnet forcing you to swing wildly into a tree.

As I said previously go away and have a think about your arguments.

CramCycle

dashcamdanny wrote: »

believe for this very reason in the states all traffic must stop behind a bus.

School buses in many states have legally enforceable stop signs that the driver operates as kids alight and until they are safe. I have never heard your version of the law there.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ah here I never said that....

I didn't mean to come across like that if that's what you interpreted it like.

It was pretty clear to me that there was only one way to interpret your statement. Funnily, it was wrong across a large cross section of cyclists. Secondly, considering how many licensed drivers don't know or understand the law let alone good etiquette, it is a bit of an odd point to make as it falls apart when you go outside and observe typical Irish traffic.

punisher5112 wrote: »

As in I've had many a warrior on and they have never held a licence.

And I have witnessed many who had and were still wrong, what's your point?

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This all maybe true.

Funny enough I have yet to meet a driving instructor to hand out The Irish statue law book as part of driver training. In any of my a b c or d lessons and tests.

Its a pity. We all should use that instead of the ROTR.

As I have said. LOADS of times here. But I will repeat it again for you.

It was a quote from the ROTR .. The book everyone uses in every class of licence . Then gets tested on by the NDLS. Our state testers. The exception being the cyclist.

The word should pops up 180 time in the rules of the road, is also states on the next paragraph in question:
Taking care with cyclists
If you are at a junction where there is an advanced stop line for cyclists, you
should allow cyclists to move off ahead of you.
Off course we should, just as traffic SHOULD give way to buses pulling out
Only a fool would do otherwise

Just to clarify the rules of the road are simply guidelines and interpretations of road traffic law. Mainly to give a common tongue and interpretation of the law. In most cases it is quite reasonable but there are enough issues in it for me to see it easily dismissed in court if it was called in.

1bryan wrote: »

I have submitted 2 separate complaints to Dublin bus for much the same thing, also on Pearse St. Having 2 bus lanes is a recipe for disaster, especially with cyclists who wish to turn onto Tara st.

I love the two lanes and find it far less stressful and far safer than it was before.

Pinch Flat

amcalester wrote: »

Two idiots in that clip.

Perhaps, but one of them is driving a huge vehicle that can kill someone. As he pointed out rather eloquently.

Corca Baiscinn

I was hoping that all the various traffic changes planned for Dublin CC would lead to cyclists, bus users and bus drivers/management finding common cause against the real enemy. Buses and bikes are highly efficient users of limited urban road space. Private cars are not and are going to impede bikes and buses even more than they do already. It's unfortunate that the shared space creates conflict sometimes and it's understandable that cyclists get irritated as it's their lives that are on the line. But neither bus drivers or cyclists designed what we have. At the risk of sounding like "the farmer and the cowboy should be friends" I do think we should be open to the views of Punisher and Danny, (as should they to us). Driving a bus in Dublin is hardly a picnic , Of course we should point out when bus drivers carry out unsafe manoeuvres but an efficient bus service is in our interest whether we're on bikes or on the bus.

railer201

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Perhaps, but one of them is driving a huge vehicle that can kill someone. As he pointed out rather eloquently.

.......and the other is driving a little vehicle with no protection at all and should be fully aware of the consequences of a collision with a bus, and play safe accordingly.

The main problem is the continuing reality that buses and bikes are not a good mix at close quarters such as in sharing bus lanes & bus/cycle lane combos. Cyclists, for the most part, don't even have the basic protection that pedestrians have, as in raised footpaths, solely for their use.

Unknown Soldier

I pity bus drivers.

What they have to put up with is shocking. Really shocking.

A lot of the people using bikes in the City are just pedestrians, but on bikes.

Oblivions in the extreme.

I however, suffer the consequences of their ways.

Pinch Flat

railer201 wrote: »

.......and the other is driving a little vehicle with no protection at all and should be fully aware of the consequences of a collision with a bus, and play safe accordingly.

The main problem is the continuing reality that buses and bikes are not a good mix at close quarters such as in sharing bus lanes & bus/cycle lane combos. Cyclists, for the most part, don't even have the basic protection that pedestrians have, as in raised footpaths, solely for their use.

But this incident was in a mandatory bike lane - one I use myself daily and that vehicles are prohibited from using - This includes buses. There's room for the bike and bus to travel together - you're just relying on the bus driver not to be a tw@t.

railer201

Pinch Flat wrote: »

But this incident was in a mandatory bike lane - one I use myself daily and that vehicles are prohibited from using - This includes buses. There's room for the bike and bus to travel together - you're just relying on the bus driver not to be a tw@t.

You've said it another way - there's room to cycle but no room for errors by the bus driver or the cyclist. Bus drivers, in turn, are relying on cyclists not to be twats either.

However there's a basic flaw, any protection is just theoretical as in the term 'mandatory' - whereas what would offer practical separation would be proper cycle tracks with raised kerbs or barriers.

Pinch Flat

railer201 wrote: »

You've said it another way - there's room to cycle but no room for errors by the bus driver or the cyclist. Bus drivers, in turn, are relying on cyclists not to be twats either.

Maybe so. The cyclist did nothing wrong in this clip. But the bus driver seemed to be happy enough if the cyclist went under his wheels.

railer201

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Maybe so. The cyclist did nothing wrong in this clip. But the bus driver seemed to be happy enough if the cyclist went under his wheels.

Do you not think - notwithstanding this incident - that the fault lies generally with the poor cycling infrastructure in Dublin and elsewhere ? - and that most of these 'Dulux' cycle lanes do really nothing to protect a cyclist from driving errors by either themselves or other vehicles ?