Homophobia still alive in modern Ireland

One eyed Jack

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'm interested to know if those posting in this thread that there's "no homophobia in Ireland" anymore are gay themselves? As someone who gets called names and stared at walking down the street for my gender/ sexuality expression, and asked to leave public toilets and changing rooms fairly regularly, I'd have to disagree.

Nobody posted that though, that was Joey who suggested that there was a perception that homophobia doesn't exist any more in this country -

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think sometimes there can be a perception that homophobia doesn't exist anymore here in this country since May 23rd 2015.

It does. The george was vandalised last night

https://lovindublin.com/news/pic-the-george-nightclub-got-horrifically-vandalised-last-night

Ok so less gay bashing is happening but there's still gay kids being kicked out of the house when they come out to their parents, there's still teachers afraid to come out to their students and talk about their husband or wife, there's still lots of that happening. Just because it's not on the news like this doesn't mean it's not homophobia.

Of course there's homophobia in Ireland, and you listed some good examples of it, but from reading the comments on the article linked by Joey, I think some people really are losing their sense of perspective in claiming this is some sort of homophobic attack and that unless a person were LGBT they wouldn't know how it feels.

It's chalk, it wipes off. It's not like anyone had a milk carton thrown at them.

Jentle Grenade

These incidents don't irk me half as much as all the apologists they bring out.

wordofwarning

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'm interested to know if those posting in this thread that there's "no homophobia in Ireland" anymore are gay themselves?

There are around 1.3m people living in Dublin. The odd negative incident against a LGBT person occurs. Yet we are supposed in buy into this notion that Ireland is a homophobic society because a few people a year out of 1.3m do something bad in Dublin?

Do a few isolated LGBT related incidents make Ireland a homophobic place? IMO not at all.

I feel there is a certain segment of the LGBT community who refuse to accept Ireland is in large a LGBT friendly country. They live for isolated incidents like this to confirm their bias that Ireland is not LGBT friendly...

wakka12

Jentle Grenade wrote: »

These incidents don't irk me half as much as all the apologists they bring out.

100% !

Manion

I can't believe there are people here arguing this is not homophobic. One wonders what would meet the criteria.

Also won't someone think of the Syrian's

lawred2

Manion wrote: »

I can't believe there are people here arguing this is not homophobic. One wonders what would meet the criteria.

Also won't someone think of the Syrian's

Of course it's homophobic.

However does it say anything beyond there being at least one person in Dublin who is a homophobic loser?

Bebopclown

Jentle Grenade wrote: »

These incidents don't irk me half as much as all the apologists they bring out.

What this mean?
Also people saying this was faked, I guess it could have been but it seems a big risky to do something like that on a busy street no matter what time it is. Maybe it was done in chalk so it could be done quickly.

wordofwarning

Manion wrote: »

I can't believe there are people here arguing this is not homophobic. One wonders what would meet the criteria.

Of course it is homophobic. No one disputes that.

But if someone in the 1.3 m people who live in Dublin wrote the N on a wall in Town. Does that make Ireland a nation of racists? Does your neighbour making a derogatory remark mean you are of a similar mindset?

No one is disputing this is a hateful thing to say. But saying that what a single person said/wrote reflects the views of the 4.5m residents in Ireland is bizarre to say the least.

AllForIt

infogiver wrote: »

The point is, no particular group can claim to be any more victimised then any other. Actually my own idea is that currently elderly people living alone in rural Ireland have it pretty bad between being under threat from marauding traveller gangs and being treated like nuisances by the health service, and no one really cares.

AllForIt wrote: »

That's hilarious that is.

infogiver wrote: »

Old people terrorised in their homes and put in a corner to die in the hospital is hilarious?

That is not what I meant and you know that perfectly well.

Cynically comparing minorities/demographics and evaluating which one is worse off in an attempt to show that one minority is moaning too much.

Oh yes, gays don't care about old people because they want all the sympathy attention. Risible comment by you.

gizmo81

But you cannot claim to know the lived experience of every gay person in Ireland.

Homophobia exists beyond the incidents that make the headlines.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Of course it is homophobic. No one disputes that.

But if someone in the 1.3 m people who live in Dublin wrote the N on a wall in Town. Does that make Ireland a nation of racists? Does your neighbour making a derogatory remark mean you are of a similar mindset?

No one is disputing this is a hateful thing to say. But saying that what a single person said/wrote reflects the views of the 4.5m residents in Ireland is bizarre to say the least.

Grey Wind

wordofwarning wrote: »

Of course it is homophobic. No one disputes that.

But if someone in the 1.3 m people who live in Dublin wrote the N on a wall in Town. Does that make Ireland a nation of racists? Does your neighbour making a derogatory remark mean you are of a similar mindset?

No one is disputing this is a hateful thing to say. But saying that what a single person said/wrote reflects the views of the 4.5m residents in Ireland is bizarre to say the least.

Nobody is saying that this incident reflects the view of every person in Ireland. We're saying it's a reminder that these views are still prevalent in this country, as evident by the examples listed in this thread and the experiences of virtually any gay person.

What's really bizarre to me is a bunch of straight people trying to dictate how much of a problem homophobia is.

infogiver

baby and crumble wrote: »

I disagree. Why should we be ok with some of our population being treated unequally? "Just because"? That's not good enough

Most of the population feel they're been treated unequally.
I get abused on the street because I'm fat and I waddle as opposed to walk.
Non-white people are abused.
Old people are discriminated against.
Lots of women feel they are treated unequally.
Mentally ill people feel discriminated against by the health system.
Everyone is fighting for their rights.

One eyed Jack

gizmo81 wrote: »

But you cannot claim to know the lived experience of every gay person in Ireland.

Homophobia exists beyond the incidents that make the headlines.

Yes it does, and it shows how far Ireland has come as a society when an incident like this makes the headlines.

The insinuation in the opening post that homophobia is "alive and well in modern Ireland" as though people who are LGBT are still subjected to persecution, well it was always bound to raise an eyebrow.

It's very difficult to know who chalked the graffiti and why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been a publicity stunt.

AllForIt

infogiver wrote: »

Most of the population feel they're been treated unequally.
I get abused on the street because I'm fat and I waddle as opposed to walk.
Non-white people are abused.
Old people are discriminated against.
Lots of women feel they are treated unequally.
Mentally ill people feel discriminated against by the health system.
Everyone is fighting for their rights.

I'm thinking of throwing fat people into a concentration camps so we can say there are no fat ppl in Ireland. I propose Leitrim as the camp base.

Manion

AllForIt wrote: »

I'm thinking of throwing fat people into a concentration camp so we can say there are no fat ppl in Ireland.

It's called fat camp. I go Tuesdays and Thursdays.

I'm not too sure what's been argued on this thread. Seems to be spitting hairs at an Olympic standard. While forgetting someone's business and several peoples livelihood and community focal point has been attacked.

gizmo81

Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?

Manion wrote: »

It's called fat camp. I go Tuesdays and Thursdays.

I'm not too sure what's been argued on this thread. Seems to be spitting hairs at an Olympic standard. While forgetting someone's business and several peoples livelihood and community focal point has been attacked.

gizmo81

I don't know why you're going out of your way to deny homophobia exists.

Gay people are still treated with hostility (i.e. persecuted) in Ireland today.

People should really know how to define words before they use them.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yes it does, and it shows how far Ireland has come as a society when an incident like this makes the headlines.

The insinuation in the opening post that homophobia is "alive and well in modern Ireland" as though people who are LGBT are still subjected to persecution, well it was always bound to raise an eyebrow.

It's very difficult to know who chalked the graffiti and why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been a publicity stunt.

Manion

gizmo81 wrote: »

Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?

Too soon?

AllForIt

gizmo81 wrote: »

Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?

No , I am comparing what is happening in Chechnya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Chechnya

One eyed Jack

gizmo81 wrote: »

I don't know why you're going out of your way to deny homophobia exists.

I didn't deny at all that homophobia exists? I'm saying that it doesn't exist to the degree that was implied in the opening post.

Gay people are still treated with hostility (i.e. persecuted) in Ireland today.

Some are, most aren't. That's why I said we shouldn't lose our sense of perspective, because losing our sense of perspective causes people to raise an eyebrow.

People should really know how to define words before they use them.

I think it's more important that people can agree on a definition, otherwise one might be given to perceiving homophobia all around them, creating mass paranoia where it's totally unnecessary and divisive.

wordofwarning

gizmo81 wrote: »

But you cannot claim to know the lived experience of every gay person in Ireland.

Homophobia exists beyond the incidents that make the headlines.

So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...

wakka12

This thread is getting weird

Grey Wind

wordofwarning wrote: »

So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...

Do you have anything to back up the absurd claim that 99% of gay people in Ireland have never experienced homophobia?

Here's a couple of examples that prove that that certainly isn't the case:

http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/
http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-1329801-Feb2014/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-case-study-there-s-no-classification-of-these-crimes-1.3022277
http://www.independent.ie/sport/revealed-ireland-the-second-worst-offender-when-it-comes-to-homophobia-in-sport-31210431.html

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't deny at all that homophobia exists? I'm saying that it doesn't exist to the degree that was implied in the opening post.

What degree did the OP imply? Literally all it says is that it exists.

One eyed Jack

Grey Wind wrote: »

I really, really do not understand why people are bending over backwards to try and minimize any sort of a problem.

By that same token, and only speaking for myself, I don't understand why you're so desperate to go looking for problems tbh.

DivingDuck

There will always be homophobia in Ireland, and everywhere else— there are people who still don't think women are fit to vote and who'd bring back slavery if they could, and those rights are much older and more established in society than the right to freedom of sexuality, which has only been guaranteed in this country for a handful of years. Some people are never going to believe in the rights of others, and that's an unavoidable fact.

That said, on a state-wide level we should seek to punish people who try to infringe on the rights of others so that these opinions are recognized as being the views of only a small minority, and not considered "acceptable" by society as a whole. Sure, graffiti is just that; it's not somebody getting a beating or being refused accommodation or let go from their job. You can walk past the words, and go in and have a pint just like every other day.

When something like this is considered "okay", though, it gives the impression that society is signing off on those views. It contributes to a feeling of being unwelcome and other. It plants the seeds of fear and anxiety. Is that really something people think is all right? Is that something people want to encourage?

I hope they catch whoever was responsible for this and throw the book at them.

wakka12

Grey Wind wrote: »

Do you have anything to back up the absurd claim that 99% of gay people in Ireland have never experienced homophobia?

Here's a couple of examples that prove that that certainly isn't the case:

http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/
http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-1329801-Feb2014/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-case-study-there-s-no-classification-of-these-crimes-1.3022277
http://www.independent.ie/sport/revealed-ireland-the-second-worst-offender-when-it-comes-to-homophobia-in-sport-31210431.html


I really, really do not understand why people are bending over backwards to try and minimize any sort of a problem.

One of those links reminded me of just how bad being gay was when i was younger. Whatever about in adult society, Id be more of the opinion that homophobia is not a huge problem there, but I would say gay youth suffer a lot. I left secondary school just 4 years ago and abuse for being gay was constant and harsh
It was easy for me to forget..college being so accepting and open minded, like night and day
So that is definitely one setting where homophobia is a massive problem, still, highly doubt its changed a lot in the 4 years since I left either.

Grey Wind

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By that same token, and only speaking for myself, I don't understand why you're so desperate to go looking for problems tbh.

I'm not looking for problems. They exist. They're there. I've given examples. I've linked to stories. How is that "looking for problems"?

marienbad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Some are, most aren't. That's why I said we shouldn't lose our sense of perspective, because losing our sense of perspective causes people to raise an eyebrow.

.

Jack unless life conforms to your perspective you always seem to raise an eyebrow ! And that applies to most issues outside a 'traditional' view of life .

Every LGBT person I have ever met ( and I have met quite a lot) has and will continue to have experience of homophobia . That is simply a fact of life .

Sometimes it will just be a 'here we go again' minor irritation and sometimes it will be a lot more so - but it will always be there . And it makes no difference if it is 00.1% or 10 % of the population . If a person is being insulted, assaulted, intimidated should they remind themselves that it is only a minority ?

Will it ever end ? IMHO opinion - never , but we can at least call it what it is without equivocation .

gizmo81

Where do you get your statistics from?

Why do you think you and your friends are representative of wider society?

Have you polled gay teenagers to ask if they feel persecuted? UNESCO have and they disagree with you;

More than 52 per cent of LGBTI (lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, trans and intersex) young people have experienced homophobic or transphobic name-calling while at school in Ireland, according to a Unesco study.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002

Like the Marriage referendum, having a gay Taoiseach will have no bearing on the day to day lives of gay people and their experience of discrimination.

ireland actually slipped in it's ranking with ILGA

And if you want to focus on homophobia as violence rather than bias,


Hate crime figures from the Central Statistics Office, released to the Press Association in October, showed that 26 cases of crimes based on gender, transphobia or homophobia were recorded in the first six months of 2016, compared to 25 overall in 2015. These were the first statistics available since the Pulse recording system used by An Garda Siochana was expanded to include transphobic crimes in 2015.


http://ilga-europe.org/sites/default/files/2017/ireland.pdf

wordofwarning wrote: »

So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...

Annasopra

NIMAN wrote: »

There's homophobia is the US, Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia, Austrialia, NZ ...........

Its not just Ireland.

In fact, Ireland is a lot more progressive than most Western countries when it comes to gay rights, so a bit harsh to judge the entire country due to the actions of a few scumbags.

Oh for fūck sake. I didnt say the whole country is homophobic.

Annasopra

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You don't have to be ok with it. You just can't do anything about how people feel.

You can do many things. Challenging through counter speech. Education. Etc etc

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody posted that though, that was Joey who suggested that there was a perception that homophobia doesn't exist any more in this country -

Of course there's homophobia in Ireland, and you listed some good examples of it, but from reading the comments on the article linked by Joey, I think some people really are losing their sense of perspective in claiming this is some sort of homophobic attack and that unless a person were LGBT they wouldn't know how it feels.

It's chalk, it wipes off. It's not like anyone had a milk carton thrown at them.

Are you seriously saying this wasn't homophobia?

NIMAN

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Oh for fūck sake. I didnt say the whole country is homophobic.

I'm going to make this my last comment on this thread as some people seem to be getting a tad wound up.

I know you didn't say the whole country is homophobic, but if you expect there to be zero anti-gay people in Ireland, then you are wasting your time, and you are simply stating the obvious.

That's my point. Cheerio.

Annasopra

Literally all it says is that it exists.

Exactly. I don't why people are hopping up and down because I pointed out it exists.

wakka12

NIMAN wrote: »

I'm going to make this my last comment on this thread as some people seem to be getting a tad wound up.

I know you didn't say the whole country is homophobic, but if you expect there to be zero anti-gay people in Ireland, then you are wasting your time, and you are simply stating the obvious.

That's my point. Cheerio.

I don't think anyone expects that
We can hope that one of the countrys few gay bars wont be vandalised with gay slur words though and criticise it when it does happen
Don't you think?

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Are you seriously saying this wasn't homophobia?

Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.

gizmo81

Publicity for what or whom?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.

Manion

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.

Holly ****. I can help but get the feeling... You literally don't know what to make of it.

Manion

gizmo81 wrote: »

Publicity for what or whom?

For the agenda obviously. Did you not get the news letter?

Grey Wind

Someone spray paints fag and a swastika across a gay bar and you think it's a publicity stunt? Are you for real? No wonder you don't think homophobia's a problem if this is your reaction to it.

wakka12

Manion wrote: »

For the agenda obviously. Did you not get the news letter?

You'd have to admit the graffiti is strange though, I have never seen graffiti that neat and in chalk as well.
I dont agree that it was a publicity stunt as I think the george does very good business..and I don't think that would make more people go to it
but strange graffiti none the less.

gizmo81

Was that the pink glitter thing that came in my letterbox?

Manion wrote: »

For the agenda obviously. Did you not get the news letter?

One eyed Jack

marienbad wrote: »

Jack unless life conforms to your perspective you always seem to raise an eyebrow ! And that applies to most issues outside a 'traditional' view of life.

It's understandable you'd have that impression marien given that you don't know me at all.

Every LGBT person I have ever met ( and I have met quite a lot) has and will continue to have experience of homophobia . That is simply a fact of life.

Every one of them? I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it but one of the reasons why threads like this raise an eyebrow is because most people I know who are either gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender don't experience that sort of treatment. To say it's a fact of life is exactly the sort of negative, divisive attitude I'm referring to.

Sometimes it will just be a 'here we go again' minor irritation and sometimes it will be a lot more so - but it will always be there . And it makes no difference if it is 00.1% or 10 % of the population . If a person is being insulted, assaulted, intimidated should they remind themselves that it is only a minority ?

Yes they should, because that would be maintaining the perspective I mentioned earlier rather than allowing themselves to give in to mass paranoia which would be completely irrational and closing themselves off from society as a result. The George would probably close down as a result though if people realised that people aren't generally homophobic.

Will it ever end ? IMHO opinion - never , but we can at least call it what it is without equivocation .

No equivocation is necessary, nor was it ever necessary (I hate when people make equivocations myself, they're never legitimate comparisons), nor is exaggeration and polarisation necessary either.

One eyed Jack

gizmo81 wrote: »

Publicity for what or whom?

To whip up hysteria and paranoia among the LGBT community is one reason off the top of my head. These incidents go viral very quickly on social media.

Manion

wakka12 wrote: »

You'd have to admit the graffiti is strange though, I have never seen graffiti that neat and in chalk as well.
I dont agree that it was a publicity stunt as I think the george does very good business..and I don't think that would make more people go to it
but strange graffiti none the less.

You make an excellent point. Trump wasn't in America last night, can any of us truly be sure it wasn't him? Yes is the answer.

I feel I've fallen into an episode of brasseye. You realise you're insane yes ?

DivingDuck

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Every one of them? I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it but one of the reasons why threads like this raise an eyebrow is because most people I know who are either gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender don't experience that sort of treatment.

When you say "that sort of treatment", what do you mean?

Most people haven't had the crap kicked out of them or been told they're not being hired because they're gay, no.

Most people will have experienced something along the lines of hearing "Really? Jesus, you don't look gay" or had someone shout something rude at them while they were holding hands with a partner in public, for example, or maybe been called something in a derogatory way while at school.

There are degrees of homophobia. I would be surprised if most of your LGBT friends/acquaintances haven't experienced at least the smaller examples of it.

gizmo81

We don't need to fake homophobia see post 80 for facts and stats!!!!!!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To whip up hysteria and paranoia among the LGBT community is one reason off the top of my head. These incidents go viral very quickly on social media.

AllForIt

wordofwarning wrote: »

There are around 1.3m people living in Dublin. The odd negative incident against a LGBT person occurs. Yet we are supposed in buy into this notion that Ireland is a homophobic society because a few people a year out of 1.3m do something bad in Dublin?

Do a few isolated LGBT related incidents make Ireland a homophobic place? IMO not at all.

I feel there is a certain segment of the LGBT community who refuse to accept Ireland is in large a LGBT friendly country. They live for isolated incidents like this to confirm their bias that Ireland is not LGBT friendly...

Yes, Ireland is largely a friendly LGBT country. Nevertheless this state of affairs came about by the efforts of LGBT rights activists over the last few decades. It certainly didn't come about by some innate evolution by the ordinary citizens of Ireland. And certainly not the Catholic ones. It was fought for and won.

Any kind of homophobia is unacceptable. Why would anyone accept a tiny bit of homophobia. As long as there still exists a 'tiny' bit of homophobia then I don't see why anyone gets upset when it is pointed out. It has to be totally eradicated otherwise it may flourish again in the future.

One eyed Jack

Grey Wind wrote: »

Someone spray paints fag and a swastika across a gay bar and you think it's a publicity stunt? Are you for real? No wonder you don't think homophobia's a problem if this is your reaction to it.

They'd want to be in their 40s to have any understanding of the relevance of the graffiti. Younger people wouldn't get it at all.

wakka12

Manion wrote: »

You make an excellent point. Trump wasn't in America last night, can any of us truly be sure it wasn't him? Yes is the answer.

I feel I've fallen into an episode of brasseye. You realise you're insane yes ?

I said I didnt think it was a publicity stunt but the graffiti just looks weird.