The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

trellheim

Hopefully as posters get the analysis and insights, they can see that the issues relate to infrastructure and airline operations not the organisation (and its staff) at whom the finger was pointed at various points during this thread.

Partially true. INIS@Dublin are free to conduct their business just like other ports of entry like Connolly etc but do not do so. While further discussion of this will lead us back to banned CTA discussions , your assertion deserves challenge.

There is no denying Lxf's analysis about volume but neither is it broken down by origin immigration area.

The Veteran

Lxflyer'S analysis is very definitely broken down by area; very clearly so.

In relation to your point in CTA Trellheim your view of how the CTA should operate is irrelevant to the late night situation in the area serving the 100/200 Gates.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Partially true. INIS@Dublin are free to conduct their business just like other ports of entry like Connolly etc but do not do so. While further discussion of this will lead us back to banned CTA discussions , your assertion deserves challenge.

There is no denying Lxf's analysis about volume but neither is it broken down by origin immigration area.

The vast majority (especially the later arrivals) are from non-CTA locations for the record - but that's getting back into another issue.

The fundamental problem is the concentration of flights within such a short period, followed by the space available in the immigration hall.

JCX BXC

9 Ryanair arrivals between 10-12pm are CTA, it would be absurd to suggest this has no affect on the situation.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

9 Ryanair arrivals between 10-12pm are CTA, it would be absurd to suggest this has no affect on the situation.

I really don't want to do re-open that debate to be honest, it just goes round and round in circles. While it is clearly annoying, I've not seen any indication that the checking of all passports at Irish airports is going to change anytime soon, and on that basis, I was looking at it realistically from a practical perspective as to what can be done?

Either Ryanair could stagger their arrivals over a longer period (like Aer Lingus do), which I suspect is unlikely to happen, or (and I think this is the more realistic option) the DAA can do something about providing an adequately sized immigration hall with facilities that can meet the maximum scheduled number of arrivals in any hour from those gates.

Even if you took the CTA flights out, there would be queues - the basic issue is that the immigration hall can't cope with that volume of flights.

JCX BXC

lxflyer wrote: »

I really don't want to do re-open that debate to be honest, it just goes round and round in circles. While it is clearly annoying, I've not seen any indication that the checking of all passports at Irish airports is going to change anytime soon, and on that basis, I was looking at it realistically from a practical perspective as to what can be done?

Either Ryanair could stagger their arrivals over a longer period (like Aer Lingus do), which I suspect is unlikely to happen, or (and I think this is the more realistic option) the DAA can do something about providing an adequately sized immigration hall with facilities that can meet the maximum scheduled number of arrivals in any hour from those gates.

Which I accept perfectly, and had your point only been that I'd have to agree

Even if you took the CTA flights out, there would be queues - the basic issue is that the immigration hall can't cope with that volume of flights.

This is what can't go unchallenged. 9 flights is a significant number to take out of passport control, and would likely drastically reduce queues. Of course there would still be queues, but 20 minutes is much shorter than 40 minutes!

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

Which I accept perfectly, and had your point only been that I'd have to agree

This is what can't go unchallenged. 9 flights is a significant number to take out of passport control, and would likely drastically reduce queues. Of course there would still be queues, but 20 minutes is much shorter than 40 minutes!

Hang on - this isn't a court of law - I'm not trying to make a case here about the CTA - other people keep bringing it up.

I just did that analysis off my own bat out of sheer curiosity to see how the flights were scheduled, and I decided to share it.

Nothing more than that.

But that still leaves 19 non-CTA flights within a very short period (most of the scheduled arrivals after 23:00).

Realistically, do you think there is no likelihood of the CTA flights being taken out of passport control for the foreseeable future (irrespective of one's personal view on them)? Personally I don't see that changing - and that's the basis I am looking at it from - I'm purely looking at it from a practical perspective rather than bringing the politics into the equation.

JCX BXC

lxflyer wrote: »

Hang on - this isn't a court of law - I'm not trying to make a case here about the CTA - other people keep bringing it up.

I just did that analysis off my own bat out of sheer curiosity to see how the flights were scheduled, and I decided to share it.

Nothing more than that.

Realistically, do you think there is no likelihood of them being taken out of passport control for the foreseeable future (irrespective of one's personal view on them)?

Personally I don't see that changing - and that's the basis that we have to assess this - I'm purely looking at it from a practical perspective rather than bringing the politics into the equation.

I'd guarantee that if this was a court of law, the challenges would be much harsher.

I'd agree I can't see it changing for the foreseeable future, but you cannot write it off as it doesn't matter like you're currently doing, because it's quite clear it does matter and it does make a difference.

Irish Steve

The checking of passports at Dublin is unlikely to change any time soon for one very simple reason, even with how things stand now, and that's ignoring the eventual implications of Brexit, which could complicate things significantly.

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland. It is totally reasonable and acceptable to ensure that people entering Ireland are entitled to do so.

There is a very clear issue with the number of desks available to process arrivals through T1, given the peaks that the airline scheduling systems are causing, INIS have the staff, but they don't have the kiosks to deploy those staff due to space restrictions, which is a DAA issue. In theory, some flights could be bussed to T2 for processing, but that would have significant staff, cost and logistical implications, which would involve DAA, the airline handling agents and INIS, for what may turn out to be a short term issue, depending on how DAA plan to manage the installation of automatic gates in T1, the requirement that has to be addressed is to increase the number of gates/kiosks so that more passengers can be processed.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'd guarantee that if this was a court of law, the challenges would be much harsher.

I'd agree I can't see it changing for the foreseeable future, but you cannot write it off as it doesn't matter like you're currently doing, because it's quite clear it does matter and it does make a difference.

I'm not writing anything off. You are misinterpreting my point. The sheer volume of non-CTA flights alone in that short period means that there would be problems.

That immigration hall is too small to cope with it.

And as I posted above, I was looking at it from a practical rather than political perspective.

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland. It is totally reasonable and acceptable to ensure that people entering Ireland are entitled to do so.

Even a larger proportion than on Ferry or Rail? That would surprise me.

Anyway I'm not going to get that far into it, we've been through the Ferry Vs Rail Vs Plane debate.

My point is lxflyer, that you're simply saying it doesn't matter because it'll be busy anyway, which is a strange assertion to have. While it won't be removed for obvious political reasons (namely brexit as above), you cannot write it off as not mattering.

Also, Irish Steve you refer to it as possibly being a short term problem, I'd like to ask how you think the issue will improve in the future, say next summer and the summer after, as Dublin's growth is expected to stay strong.

Irish Steve

I would expect the INIS are involved with ongoing and very detailed discussions with DAA to ensure that they have enough space to be able to operate effectively, there are specific issues at present with the installation of automatic passport scanners, which will be installed in the autumn, and hopefully, DAA will also ensure that sufficient additional space is made available to allow for the number of kiosks that are needed to process the volumes.

DAA's track record at being proactive in dealing with problems is not good, I have either used or worked in most areas of the airport over nearly 30 years, and have watched with increasing incredulity as things have evolved over that time, on so many occasions, the changes made by DAA to deal with the issues have been at best short term and limited, with very little real vision or innovation.

I'd like to hope that things will improve, but I don't have huge confidence that the relevant people at DAA are still seeing beyond the "operating the biggest pub in Ireland" mentality that seems to have been their primary focus for too long.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

My point is lxflyer, that you're simply saying it doesn't matter because it'll be busy anyway, which is a strange assertion to have. While it won't be removed for obvious political reasons (namely brexit as above), you cannot write it off as not mattering.

I never said it didn't matter.

What I said was that the number of arriving flights within a short two hour period would cause problems at the best of times - as it happens the vast majority are non-CTA, and most of these are concentrated in the second hour of that period.

That's inevitably going to put pressure on the facilities regardless of whether the CTA flights were checked simply due to the large number of arriving flights within such a short period, given the size of the current immigration hall. A new larger hall is needed, full stop, to cope with the business that the DAA have encouraged - they should be providing facilities that are commensurate with the number of scheduled arrivals.

My point all along is that the facilities in T1 are put under significantly more pressure than the corresponding ones in T2 due to the fact that the entire Ryanair fleet returns within a much closer defined period than the Aer Lingus fleet and that the facilities cannot cope with that.

That's all - I have no wish to get involved in the CTA debate.

As I said in my original post - if you want to minimise the risk of being in a long queue, my simple advice at the moment, is to avoid flying on a Ryanair flight scheduled to arrive after 22:00.

trellheim

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland

And, as we all know, INIS are free to deal with them just as at other ports of entry - random intelligence led checks.


I am not reopening this debate but , as we've been round it many times it is not credible to claim that the problem is not down to purely DAA and the airlines. Yes, there is substantial volume to contend with - I can read an analysis as well as the next man - no denial of that. As long as the immigration agencies perform different processing at our airports than at other ports of entry this situation will continue.

Irish Steve

With the exception of a very limited number travelling on ferries from France, the underlying reason for the difference in processing at the airports is that every other route into Ireland the passengers have been processed through the (very structured and rigid) UK immigration and control processes, whereas there are no guarantees that people arriving into Dublin by air have been through an EU or UK passport control check, due to the somewhat nebulous manner in which such formalities are carried out at European locations, and in some cases, a transit passenger into Ireland via an EU airport may well not have been fully and appropriately checked prior to arrival in Ireland, and the numbers arriving in Dublin massively dwarfs the numbers arriving by ferry or across the border from the North.

Then there is the issue of the sheer volume of numbers. I've travelled on a number of the ferries over the last while, the numbers of foot passengers on most sailings is relatively low, and can be managed quite easily, whereas there are no facilities at the airport to perform checks on each flight, unless you want to put a passport control point on each gate, which is not going to be practical, given that the same gate can be used for an A330, and the next flight on that gate could be an ATR42, which would mean having multiple kiosks at each gate, which is going to cause all manner of problems, and could well significantly delay the off loading of flights, which won't go down well with the airlines, handling agents or DAA.

There are probably more passengers per day at the airport than there are in a month on the ferries, that's the reality of the way that travel has changed, and the issue at the airport is the way that passengers can cross Europe in a very short time with minimal checks, and with the numbers using Dublin as a transit hub, there are significant pressures from other countries to make sure that "the system" is aware of and managing such passengers.

killbillvol2

Time to unfollow this thread. It's going round in circles.

JCX BXC

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Time to unfollow this thread. It's going round in circles.

Good luck!

Don't like this force closure of discussion, it's quite wrong.

Spanish Eyes

DAA don't give a dam. If they did they would be all over the DOJ/DFA like a rash to get it sorted, and/or would extend the immigration hall to look half decent.

But they don't care about immigration, only the concessions, and anything else that results in income.

Immigration halls do not do that.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

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plodder

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

DAA don't give a dam. If they did they would be all over the DOJ/DFA like a rash to get it sorted, and/or would extend the immigration hall to look half decent.

But they don't care about immigration, only the concessions, and anything else that results in income.

Immigration halls do not do that.

I can imagine 25+ minute immigration queues putting pax from Northern Ireland off, especially for flights to the UK. You can cover a fair distance up the M1 in 25 minutes. So, I think the DAA should be concerned about it. Even in terms of competition between airports within this jurisdiction.

Irish Steve

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I could visualise some serious reactions from a full A330 coming in from Malaga if there was only effectively one person checking the flight, as the number of non EU passengers is likely to be quite low.

joeysoap

There's very few flights into Belfast international in comparison to Dublin, and they can be very strict on checking passports, and If you are travelling with your spouse you must go to whatever official is free together not separately i.e. One to one officer and one to another officer. Even one flight can take 10 minutes to clear. (Can be a bit odd being welcomed by a officer wearing a turban on his head but you get used to that)

As for the MI/N1 (changes to the A1 at the border, they have a different M1) yep terrific as far as Sprucefield but pretty busy on the single lane road (A26)from the roundabout on the MI near Moira to the airport

Fred Swanson

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JCX BXC

2 personnel at Shannon on Monday, processing 4 flights. Took 20 minutes.

The Rape of Lucretia

May have missed it mentioned in here already, but why are the automatic gates ripped out at T1 ? Not that they ever worked. The rest of the world seems to manage them, but the ones there could take 20 gos to try to get through (after giving up several times and going back to a booth, I stopped even trying them).

joeysoap

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

May have missed it mentioned in here already, but why are the automatic gates ripped out at T1 ? Not that they ever worked. The rest of the world seems to manage them, but the ones there could take 20 gos to try to get through (after giving up several times and going back to a booth, I stopped even trying them).

Depends on the airport, Faro automatic passport readers are really really really bad. Hence only 'newbies' try them, while 'oldies' just join the queue.

The Veteran

Subject of Gates covered earlier; supplier chosen and work is underway to see Gates installed in the Autumn.

The old ones weren't perfect - they were from two different companies and were on trial - but in busy weeks got close on to 20,000 in a week.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Veteran wrote: »

Subject of Gates covered earlier; supplier chosen and work is underway to see Gates installed in the Autumn.

The old ones weren't perfect - they were from two different companies and were on trial - but in busy weeks got close on to 20,000 in a week.

I hope they bought from neither of those companies. I would have thought it was well tried technology elsewhere at this stage, and they could just buy the ones that work. Frankfurt and Paris I think have them working with no issues, so why they should have been testing ones that dont work seem strange.

Avada

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I hope they bought from neither of those companies. I would have thought it was well tried technology elsewhere at this stage, and they could just buy the ones that work. Frankfurt and Paris I think have them working with no issues, so why they should have been testing ones that dont work seem strange.

Like all technology, each generation improves. The ones on trial were not new.

Fred Swanson

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The Veteran

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Is it true they are really not automatic and that a human reviews each person before the gates will open?

No they are automatic when all is ok with a passenger. Issues do arise with users of Gates - some people hit on watchlists; some use invalid documents; others don't look at the camera to be photographed or try to walk straight through (often because they don't realise how Gates actually work).

There is always an officer monitoring Gates to deal with exceptions and make sure nothing funny is going on.

Gates are configured differently everywhere they are installed; different capabilities; different settings; different approaches.

trellheim

With the exception of a very limited number travelling on ferries from France, the underlying reason for the difference in processing at the airports is that every other route into Ireland the passengers have been processed through the (very structured and rigid) UK immigration and control processes, whereas there are no guarantees that people arriving into Dublin by air have been through an EU or UK passport control check, due to the somewhat nebulous manner in which such formalities are carried out at European locations, and in some cases, a transit passenger into Ireland via an EU airport may well not have been fully and appropriately checked prior to arrival in Ireland, and the numbers arriving in Dublin massively dwarfs the numbers arriving by ferry or across the border from the North.

Then there is the issue of the sheer volume of numbers. I've travelled on a number of the ferries over the last while, the numbers of foot passengers on most sailings is relatively low, and can be managed quite easily, whereas there are no facilities at the airport to perform checks on each flight, unless you want to put a passport control point on each gate, which is not going to be practical, given that the same gate can be used for an A330, and the next flight on that gate could be an ATR42, which would mean having multiple kiosks at each gate, which is going to cause all manner of problems, and could well significantly delay the off loading of flights, which won't go down well with the airlines, handling agents or DAA.

There are probably more passengers per day at the airport than there are in a month on the ferries, that's the reality of the way that travel has changed, and the issue at the airport is the way that passengers can cross Europe in a very short time with minimal checks, and with the numbers using Dublin as a transit hub, there are significant pressures from other countries to make sure that "the system" is aware of and managing such passengers.

Your points above are all valid except for CTA passengers who by definition have been processed according to the strict rules you mention.

The UKBF face the same problem and deal with the segregation and processing of CTA passengers perfectly well ( and before someone jumps in yet again, yes its a different country with different laws ) and in fact stand in Connolly Station with every Enterprise and you'll see it in Dublin as well.

I utterly refuse to accept this is entirely due to poor processing infrastructure and FR fleet coming home to roost at night ; it is open to the immigration agencies to process differently , i.e. the same as at other points of entry. They have done so in the past and are not barred from doing so.

Are the forthcoming e-gates to process driving licenses etc as well or are they to be discriminatory against CTA passengers ? 5 of the top 10 routes into Dublin are CTA routes

LiamaDelta

trellheim wrote: »

Are the forthcoming e-gates to process driving licenses etc as well or are they to be discriminatory against CTA passengers ? 5 of the top 10 routes into Dublin are CTA routes

Afaik driving licences don't contain any biometric data so I doubt it's possible to automate their use.

trellheim

Afaik driving licences don't contain any biometric data so I doubt it's possible to automate their use.

quite a few solutions on the market for that, post 2013 licenses are easily scanned. A passport is not a requirement to produce for the majority of the inbounds.

ohnonotgmail

trellheim wrote: »

quite a few solutions on the market for that, post 2013 licenses are easily scanned. A passport is not a requirement to produce for the majority of the inbounds.

but if they dont contain biometric data how can an automatic gate know that the person presenting the licence is the person on the licence?

trellheim

not sure I follow you there , the photo is on the license , all you are doing is establishing yourself as an Irishman , no requirement for biometric scanning whatsoever, you're assuming it is, and it is not for the majority of the inbounds.

We are discussing a solution that is to cater for the minority of passengers who are required to produce a passport to immigration officers.

Avada

trellheim wrote: »

not sure I follow you there , the photo is on the license , all you are doing is establishing yourself as an Irishman , no requirement for biometric scanning whatsoever, you're assuming it is, and it is not for the majority of the inbounds.

We are discussing a solution that is to cater for the minority of passengers who are required to produce a passport to immigration officers.

But thats how ABC gates work. They don't magically know that the person scanning the ID is the person who owns it. They compare Biometric images against a live image.

ohnonotgmail

trellheim wrote: »

not sure I follow you there , the photo is on the license , all you are doing is establishing yourself as an Irishman , no requirement for biometric scanning whatsoever, you're assuming it is, and it is not for the majority of the inbounds.

We are discussing a solution that is to cater for the minority of passengers who are required to produce a passport to immigration officers.

If i walk up to an electronic gate and present somebody elses driving licence how is the gate to know this in the abscence of biometric data?

Fred Swanson

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munchkin_utd

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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will it not ?
It has a chip so why not ?

ohnonotgmail

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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are you referring to the existing ones that are no longer in user or the planned ones? Cos if this is true it makes a joke of paying for a passport card.

razorblunt

I flew back from Boston a few weeks back. The queue was a mess for connecting flights.
Some DAA Agent was shouting at people as they walked to the connecting area as it was cordoned off, she wanted to filter us through the passport queues only coming out of the queue at the last minute.

Another agent was walking and asking if anyone was travelling on a connection to the UK, a few of us raised our hand and she waved us into the queue for passport control. Agent #1 sees this and screams at us to stay where we are. Not sure what the delay was but they had 2 queues Non EU were the vast majority, they ended up waving some through. Thankfully once I got past the boarding card check I was able to walk to the top of the EU passports queue. What an absolute mess though.

Fred Swanson

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plodder

I think biometric data is harder to fake. You could probably put a fake photo on a passport and get through an automatic gate without too much difficulty, if there was no biometric info on the passport.

And the passport card won't work in the automated gates.

Really? Why not?

Fred Swanson

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joeysoap

I've arrived at 5am off Boston flight previously and I have to say my heart went out to the passengers in the non EU queue, very long and moving at s snails pace as -naturally enough- the immigration officers appeared to be examining the passports thoroughly. This is where they could do with automatic gates.

plodder

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Good to know, as my passport is up soon. There is absolutely no point in getting one then.

ohnonotgmail

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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well the old machines are irrelevant now but surely for the new ones they will work?

LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Given that the new gates haven't been installed yet, I would find it very difficult to believe that validating the passport card won't be included in their specification.