The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

Avada

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Germany is now completely automated for EU citizens. Very fast and efficient self service gates.

The sooner all EU countries are forced to get rid of non-biometric ID cards the better. Then all EU citizens could use them.

Negative_G

The Veteran wrote: »

"Competent educated people"

You have no idea what education and experience any of us have. Keep you me insults to yourself.

As I have said before, any one want to know anything about the operations, ask the questions through the official channels.

You are taking offence for no good reason.

The point of my post was to remove the current situation of having to deal with the innefficient processes and the people involved, replace with with technology which I suspect is far more cost effective and often faster. Retain a token amount of people to deal with the small percentage of cases where the software flags an issue.

Redirect/redeploy the resources to other appropriately qualified (is that better) personnel to do specific intelligence led targeted operations. If this involves additional training, courses etc for existing immigration officers then great but unfortunately, as often is the case, this may be viewed as a change of job description and would be likely met with stern opposition from unions unless it included additional renumeration.

The Veteran

Negative_G wrote: »

You are taking offence for no good reason.

The point of my post was to remove the current situation of having to deal with the innefficient processes and the people involved, replace with with technology which I suspect is far more cost effective and often faster. Retain a token amount of people to deal with the small percentage of cases where the software flags an issue.

Redirect/redeploy the resources to other appropriately qualified (is that better) personnel to do specific intelligence led targeted operations. If this involves additional training, courses etc for existing immigration officers then great but unfortunately, as often is the case, this may be viewed as a change of job description and would be likely met with stern opposition from unions unless it included additional renumeration.

Your narrative is laden with ill- and mis-informed assumptions. The staff in the airport are an extremely flexible group who work long days and nights in pretty rubbish facilities for in the most part very average salaries. They take abuse, they put their hands in toilets and bins; they search bags and people that could contain anything; they sustain massive concentration for 90-120 minutes at a go during peaks. They go above and beyond the norm in many cases.

Comparisons to other jurisdictions are interesting. You will never get an answer were you to ask the UK or the US what they think of our work - I and my colleagues know what they think.

A reference to Germany is interesting - firstly no eGate system is "fully automated" - there is always an officer monitoring the Gates. Now I'm being petty! More importantly ask the German Authorities how many border guards there are at Frankfurt Airport and then tell me who is "more efficient".

There are issues\cases emerging every day at the Airport that generate cases of interest across a variety of fronts. That work goes on day and night without any trumpets.

To the poster who talks about his Canadian family member's experience and who references irrelevant questions - officers ask questions to consider matters relevant to section 4(6) and 4(10) of the Immigration Act, 2004 as they are required by law to so do. It may not be commonly appreciated that quite a number of North Americans are denied entry annually.

Qatar Airways are starting up on Monday and various other services have done so over the last while. I am not certain on this but I am not aware to my knowledge of any airline ever raising a concern over the veracity, efficacy or diligence of the INIS officers.

As others have said, a very small group of posters on here with particular pet issues. Most posters acknowledge that there is congestion at peak periods; that the physical infrastructure is far from ideal and that there is a job to be done. The majority of posters reflects the experience of the vast majority of passengers.

plodder

Apocoyl wrote: »

The point being missed here is for the small amount of contributors we here from constantly who are unhappy with their experience at the airport, there is millions every year that pass through the border and don't give it a second thought.

I don't think you can assume that all the people who are unsatisfied with their arrival experience are posting on this thread. There's a number of articles in the media over the last year or so about it.

However, maybe the CAR should get involved with measuring the actual extent of the problem though.

The Veteran

plodder wrote: »

I don't think you can assume that all the people who are unsatisfied with their arrival experience are posting on this thread. There's a number of articles in the media over the last year or so about it.

However, maybe the CAR should get involved with measuring the actual extent of the problem though.

CAR has no function but the same software is used to measure immigration queues as is used to measure the regulated security queues.

Apocoyl

plodder wrote: »

I don't think you can assume that all the people who are unsatisfied with their arrival experience are posting on this thread. There's a number of articles in the media over the last year or so about it.

However, maybe the CAR should get involved with measuring the actual extent of the problem though.

Yes, obviously this can't be assumed. The simple fact of the matter however is you will rarely see forum threads (especially in Ireland) praising or showing any sort of acknowledgement of a frontline service provided to the public, that is until something goes wrong in the country and the media decide to portray said service in a positive light for a change.

My point being there is a lot of difficult work carried out 24/7 365 by the immigration services at the airport which you and most commentators know nothing about. This, I understand is not the general publics' fault as a lot of the work is sensitive. The articles you refer to are generally regurgitated pieces within the same publications which repeat the same message of chronic congestion during "Peak Times".....the clue is in the last sentence.

plodder

Apocoyl wrote: »

Yes, obviously this can't be assumed. The simple fact of the matter however is you will rarely see forum threads (especially in Ireland) praising or showing any sort of acknowledgement of a frontline service provided to the public, that is until something goes wrong in the country and the media decide to portray said service in a positive light for a change.

My point being there is a lot of difficult work carried out 24/7 365 by the immigration services at the airport which you and most commentators know nothing about. This, I understand is not the general publics' fault as a lot of the work is sensitive. The articles you refer to are generally regurgitated pieces within the same publications which repeat the same message of chronic congestion during "Peak Times".....the clue is in the last sentence.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of this is criticism of the staff or even the agencies involved; not from me anyway. For me, it's just a question of public policy. Should we operate the CTA the same way that the UK does? I'm not hearing any strong arguments against that tbh.

The Veteran

plodder wrote: »

For what it's worth, I don't think any of this is criticism of the staff or even the agencies involved; not from me anyway. For me, it's just a question of public policy. Should we operate the CTA the same way that the UK does? I'm not hearing any strong arguments against that tbh.

The policy is expressed in the law. Certain passengers on CTA originating flights do not enjoy the passport free status that others do. The applicable U.K. Law is fundamentally different.

plodder

The Veteran wrote: »

The policy is expressed in the law. Certain passengers on CTA originating flights do not enjoy the passport free status that others do. The applicable U.K. Law is fundamentally different.

Not to labour the point, but I'm suggesting that maybe the law should be changed.

The Veteran

plodder wrote: »

Not to labour the point, but I'm suggesting that maybe the law should be changed.

Not a chance based on risk profile. More chance of the British law changing

trellheim

Evidence please.

Now - you have your way of thinking - and for sure that sort of closed way is, for some people, appropriate. Calling people keyboard warriors just because they don't fit your mindset , sure, you have your views and thats the sound of someone who , perhaps, isn't too worried about answering to anyone - you work ( or so, at least, you make out ) for a state agency. Do you not think accountability is something you should do ? We are here in a thread about queues and so far, you haven't provided stats to back your reasoning.


Answer the actual questions or get off the pot.

The Veteran

I am answerable to the Minister and \ or the Courts so very much accountable.

If you want data, numbers or the like, make a request through the official channels and you will be given anything that is not sensitive.

The number of refusals, returns, their nationalities, and other similar information is available already in the public domain by way of Ministerial releases, the "annual report" or on the Dail record in the form of PQ answers. Beyond that if there are other specifics, ask through the appropriate channel.

trellheim

Sigh... again.. do you not see how dismissive you are being. "There is bad stuff but I can't tell you. p off and ask someone else "

We're all answerable to the Courts for our actions so not sure where we are going with that. I do not think any of us can claim precedence in that.

<snip> I had a longer post written but its late and its not going anywhere as OP is taking refuge in the official channels again.

Irish Steve

trellheim wrote: »

Evidence please.

Answer the actual questions or get off the pot.

Stop asking the same questions, as it has been made very clear that you will not get an answer through this forum, or this thread.

The Veteran

trellheim wrote: »

Sigh... again.. do you not see how dismissive you are being. "There is bad stuff but I can't tell you. p off and ask someone else "

We're all answerable to the Courts for our actions so not sure where we are going with that. I do not think any of us can claim precedence in that.

<snip> I had a longer post written but its late and its not going anywhere as OP is taking refuge in the official channels again.

It is for the Minister to decide what she releases other than the operation of the FOI or indeed DP legislation. In relation to being answerable to the Courts, I am afraid you will find that public law and more broadly administrative law only applies to the actions of public bodies.

I never told you to p off. You have a hobby horse; you have for some months now failed to understand what the 2004 legislation says. You fail to understand that the CTA is not underpinned by any agreement; there is no law setting anything remotely like reciprocal provisions. You fail to understand that others have views, I don't object to you having your view but you fail to understand that just because you don't want to comprehend answers does not invalidate them.

Given the topic at the centre of this thread, I haven't seen any fresh posts about specific instances of long queues and we have just had a busy holiday weekend.

trellheim

Certainly ( solely in relation to mod instruction above ) ; I leave it to stand , very clearly, as what it is.

Mebuntu

The Veteran wrote: »

Given the topic at the centre of this thread, I haven't seen any fresh posts about specific instances of long queues and we have just had a busy holiday weekend.

Here's one. From the Irish Times today: Professor Michael Hall from the University of Canterbury in New Zealand says "Dublin is a rip-off...etc" and, as for Dublin Airport?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/don-t-come-to-dublin-it-s-a-rip-off-says-tourism-expert-1.3121104

If you don't want to read the full article I quote:

Prof Hall was also critical of the delays at passport control in Dublin airport where he said he was held up for 40 minutes on arrival last Monday.
“It is ridiculous. Put more staff on. The staff are lovely; the system is ****e. You have not enough people there. It is the first encounter someone has with your country and you are stuck in a queue for 40 minutes.”
He said in comparison it had taken about three minutes to clear the security clearance in Helsinki.

Avada

Mebuntu wrote: »

Here's one. From the Irish Times today: Professor Michael Hall from the University of Canterbury in New Zealand says "Dublin is a rip-off...etc" and, as for Dublin Airport?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/don-t-come-to-dublin-it-s-a-rip-off-says-tourism-expert-1.3121104

If you don't want to read the full article I quote:

Prof Hall was also critical of the delays at passport control in Dublin airport where he said he was held up for 40 minutes on arrival last Monday.
“It is ridiculous. Put more staff on. The staff are lovely; the system is ****e. You have not enough people there. It is the first encounter someone has with your country and you are stuck in a queue for 40 minutes.”
He said in comparison it had taken about three minutes to clear the security clearance in Helsinki.

In fairness, he was travelling on a non-eu passport. That is never going to be quick.

JCX BXC

Avada wrote: »

In fairness, he was travelling on a non-eu passport. That is never going to be quick.

Why not? Shouldn't the airport really aim to have all passengers processed swiftly?

Avada

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why not? Shouldn't the airport really aim to have all passengers processed swiftly?

That's not a reality though. If you have 1 flight with 20 groups or individual non-eu passengers (who don't live here) its going to take 10/15 minutes to process them with 5 officers. Thats without any problems arising.

JCX BXC

Avada wrote: »

That's not a reality though. If you have 1 flight with 20 groups or individual non-eu passengers (who don't live here) its going to take 10/15 minutes to process them with 5 officers. Thats without any problems arising.

How long does it take to process each individual passenger?

I was in Turkey last year, 3 holiday flights all arrived and disembarked at the same time, all non Turkish passengers (presumably), took about 7 minutes to get through (and I wasn't at the front by any means).

killbillvol2

Avada wrote: »

That's not a reality though. If you have 1 flight with 20 groups or individual non-eu passengers (who don't live here) its going to take 10/15 minutes to process them with 5 officers. Thats without any problems arising.

It should be the reality though. He got through immigration in Helsinki in 3 minutes because EU passport holders were all using the automated kiosks leaving staff free to deal with non-EU passengers.

I arrived in Shenzhen last month and was through immigration in 5 minutes at a a busy time. Big hall, Chinese passport holders using automated machines, no delay for foreigners despite all of us requiring visas.

It took me 40 minutes to get through Dublin immigration on the way back.

Avada

killbillvol2 wrote: »

It should be the reality though. He got through immigration in Helsinki in 3 minutes because EU passport holders were all using the automated kiosks leaving staff free to deal with non-EU passengers.

I arrived in Shenzhen last month and was through immigration in 5 minutes at a a busy time. Big hall, Chinese passport holders using automated machines, no delay for foreigners despite all of us requiring visas.

It took me 40 minutes to get through Dublin immigration on the way back.

Saying he took 3 minutes in Helsinki isn't really relevant. If he was at the front of the queue in DUB he would have been through in 3 minutes most likely, if he was last in the queue in Helsinki he could have taken 40 minutes.

There's no denying there are queues in DUB, which imo won't be resolved without significant investment in infrastructure from DAA, but the reality is that we will never have a situation where all non-eu passengers get through in 5/10 minutes, it just won't happen imo.

Avada

JCX BXC wrote: »

How long does it take to process each individual passenger?

It can take 1 minute or it can take an hour, it really depends. In my experience, about 1 or 2 minutes for a passenger with absolutely no issues and that have all there documents ready to go.

I should add that these type of passenger are a rare dream!

killbillvol2

Avada wrote: »

Saying he took 3 minutes in Helsinki isn't really relevant. If he was at the front of the queue in DUB he would have been through in 3 minutes most likely, if he was last in the queue in Helsinki he could have taken 40 minutes.

There's no denying there are queues in DUB, which imo won't be resolved without significant investment in infrastructure from DAA, but the reality is that we will never have a situation where all non-eu passengers get through in 5/10 minutes, it just won't happen imo.

But it wouldn't take 40 minutes in Helsinki, ever - they have invested heavily in infrastructure and have dozens of passport scanners.

Avada

killbillvol2 wrote: »

But it wouldn't take 40 minutes in Helsinki, ever - they have invested heavily in infrastructure and have dozens of passport scanners.

I haven't flown there, so I can't comment on that.

What I will say though, is that by my count they have about 35 flights all day tomorrow that are non-schengen and 10m less pax last year than Dublin.

tina1040

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not in any way excusing the delays but just to clarify something.

The common travel area only applies to people born in Ireland and U.K. - everyone else is still obliged to have a passport.

There aren't common Ireland and U.K. visas except for a very small number of people.

When you fly Ireland to London Gatwick (not sure about other uk airports) you go straight to the baggage area and into arrivals. No one asks where you were born. You could be American, African or from Mars.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

The Veteran

Avada wrote: »

I haven't flown there, so I can't comment on that.

What I will say though, is that by my count they have about 35 flights all day tomorrow that are non-schengen and 10m less pax last year than Dublin.

Or to put it in context - about two busy hours in t1!

No-one said there wasnt congestion but the causation needs to be rationally understood.

I would say that by Spring next year or earlier (hopefully) folks won't recognise the main T1 immigration area.

Anyone encounter exit controls this week?

Passed through Helsinki myself about 10'years ago - nice city. Weird being bright all day though in July.

On a CTA "type" note; how come no-one is objecting as an EU citizen entitled to Free movement to having to go through a control when entering another part of the EU that happens to be in Schengen?

Non EU in dublin is very busy at the moment but more staff than ever on duty so to the "Tourism Expert" - do some research before you call for more staff.

LXFlyer

tina1040 wrote: »

When you fly Ireland to London Gatwick (not sure about other uk airports) you go straight to the baggage area and into arrivals. No one asks where you were born. You could be American, African or from Mars.

My point was that the freedom of travel provisions of the Common Travel Area apply only to UK and Irish citizens - anyone else does still need to be in possession of a passport, and if they are from outside the EU, a visa if necessary. That's the legal position.

Bear in mind that the CTA isn't an international agreement - it's an understanding - therefore the parties involved are free to implement how they monitor it as they choose.

And in fact UK Border Force do conduct spot checks on arrivals from Ireland - I've twice been on flights into a UK airport from Ireland that have been subject to a full passport/ID check at the UK airport, and I noticed that people were taken aside who appeared not to have the right documentation.

Let's be honest though, the numbers of non-EU arrivals entering Irish airports from the CTA as a proportion of overall arrivals would be much more significant than those arriving into the UK from Ireland as a proportion entering the UK as a whole - the sheer number of external flights into the UK as compared with Ireland would tell you that.