The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

25 minutes not to bad but not ideal.

Know people who flew to Malage recently and they took an hour to clear with two desks clearing IE/UK flights recently.

The fact that other countries are worse than us is no reason to be complacent about what we have. The fact that other countries are better should drive us to try harder.

LXFlyer

whelan2 wrote: »

In fairness there were alot of desks open. Didn't expect to be delayed so long there at that time of the day. The woman in front of me recognised the woman in the booth and started talking about things to her. It's not the time or the place to have a chat with hundreds of tired people waiting behind you.

It is worth analysing the late night arrivals at Dublin, and it becomes clear that Ryanair do schedule their arrivals in a very concentrated period.

Unlike Aer Lingus, whose short haul fleet (5 Aer Lingus Regional and 27 Aer Lingus aircraft) returns to their Dublin base over an extended period (21:30-01:30 last night) but who do have a large number of holiday destination arrivals at the end of the period, the entire Dublin based Ryanair fleet (28 aircraft) is scheduled to return over a two hour period from 22:00 to 00:00 - that's a lot of aircraft to process in any case, and if there are any delays on aircraft scheduled to arrive earlier that will put more pressure on the facilities.

Last night the scheduled arrivals on stand after 21:00 were:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 2 Cityjet; 1 British Airways
22:00-22:59 - 12 Ryanair; 1 KLM
23:00-23:59 - 16 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 1 Ryanair

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Lufthansa
23:00-23:59 - 1 Air Moldova

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 6 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 8 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 4 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 4 Aer Lingus

That alone tells you that there is going to be pressure on the immigration facilities between 22:00 and 00:00 for Ryanair arrivals. They are concentrated on that period.

Last night the actual arrivals were as follows (note this is touchdown time per FR24, as opposed to block time, i.e. engines shut down on stand:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 1 Cityjet; 1 British Airways; 1 KLM
22:00-22:59 - 4 Ryanair;
23:00-23:59 - 14 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 9 Ryanair (all within 30 minutes of one another)

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Air Moldova
23:00-23:59 - 1 Lufthansa

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 2 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 7 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 8 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 5 Aer Lingus


So if you want to avoid the risk of queues, the safest bet is to choose Ryanair flights that don't arrive between 22:00 and 00:00!

whelan2

lxflyer wrote: »

It is worth analysing the late night arrivals at Dublin, and it becomes clear that Ryanair do schedule their arrivals in a very concentrated period.

Unlike Aer Lingus, whose short haul fleet (5 Aer Lingus Regional and 27 Aer Lingus aircraft) returns to their Dublin base over an extended period (21:30-01:30 last night) but who do have a large number of holiday destination arrivals at the end of the period, the entire Dublin based Ryanair fleet (28 aircraft) is scheduled to return over a two hour period from 22:00 to 00:00 - that's a lot of aircraft to process in any case, and if there are any delays on aircraft scheduled to arrive earlier that will put more pressure on the facilities.

Last night the scheduled arrivals on stand after 21:00 were:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 2 Cityjet; 1 British Airways
22:00-22:59 - 12 Ryanair; 1 KLM
23:00-23:59 - 16 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 1 Ryanair

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Lufthansa
23:00-23:59 - 1 Air Moldova

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 6 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 8 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 4 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 4 Aer Lingus

That alone tells you that there is going to be pressure on the immigration facilities between 22:00 and 00:00 for Ryanair arrivals. They are concentrated on that period.

Last night the actual arrivals were as follows (note this is touchdown time per FR24, as opposed to block time, i.e. engines shut down on stand:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 1 Cityjet; 1 British Airways; 1 KLM
22:00-22:59 - 4 Ryanair;
23:00-23:59 - 14 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 9 Ryanair (all within 30 minutes of one another)

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Air Moldova
23:00-23:59 - 1 Lufthansa

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 2 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 7 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 8 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 5 Aer Lingus


So if you want to avoid the risk of queues, the safest bet is to choose Ryanair flights that don't arrive between 22:00 and 00:00!

Our flight from Nice was delayed due to the terminal being evacuated and 2controlled explosions being done on abandoned luggage

LXFlyer

whelan2 wrote: »

Our flight from Nice was delayed due to the terminal being evacuated and 2controlled explosions being done on abandoned luggage

Well that's an extreme case!!

But the data I presented above does go some way towards explaining why there are more issues in T1 than in T2.

The Veteran

lxflyer wrote: »

It is worth analysing the late night arrivals at Dublin, and it becomes clear that Ryanair do schedule their arrivals in a very concentrated period.

Unlike Aer Lingus, whose short haul fleet (5 Aer Lingus Regional and 27 Aer Lingus aircraft) returns to their Dublin base over an extended period (21:30-01:30 last night) but who do have a large number of holiday destination arrivals at the end of the period, the entire Dublin based Ryanair fleet (28 aircraft) is scheduled to return over a two hour period from 22:00 to 00:00 - that's a lot of aircraft to process in any case, and if there are any delays on aircraft scheduled to arrive earlier that will put more pressure on the facilities.

Last night the scheduled arrivals on stand after 21:00 were:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 2 Cityjet; 1 British Airways
22:00-22:59 - 12 Ryanair; 1 KLM
23:00-23:59 - 16 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 1 Ryanair

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Lufthansa
23:00-23:59 - 1 Air Moldova

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 6 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 8 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 4 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 4 Aer Lingus

That alone tells you that there is going to be pressure on the immigration facilities between 22:00 and 00:00 for Ryanair arrivals. They are concentrated on that period.

Last night the actual arrivals were as follows (note this is touchdown time per FR24, as opposed to block time, i.e. engines shut down on stand:

T1 (100/200 gates):
21:00-21:59 - 3 Ryanair; 1 Cityjet; 1 British Airways; 1 KLM
22:00-22:59 - 4 Ryanair;
23:00-23:59 - 14 Ryanair
00:00-00:59 - 9 Ryanair (all within 30 minutes of one another)

T1 (300 gates)
21:00-21:59 - 1 British Airways Cityflyer
22:00-22:59 - 1 Air Moldova
23:00-23:59 - 1 Lufthansa

T2:
21:00-21:59 - 3 Aer Lingus Regional; 2 Aer Lingus
22:00-22:59 - 2 Aer Lingus Regional; 7 Aer Lingus
23:00-23:59 - 8 Aer Lingus
00:00-00:59 - 5 Aer Lingus
01:00-01:59 - 5 Aer Lingus


So if you want to avoid the risk of queues, the safest bet is to choose Ryanair flights that don't arrive between 22:00 and 00:00!

Lxflyer - fair play to you for that analysis. The key piece in that is the 9 arrivals within 30 minutes after midnight. Currently there are 12 desks in the hall and only so many can go through. Throw in complicated cases or the like and it slows down

veetwin

Arrived with Ryanair last night into T1 and it being a Friday night was expecting a serious wait. Breezed through with no wait at all. In fairness they seemed to have every booth open. No queue in the non EU either.

JCX BXC

What time? That plays a large part.

The Veteran

veetwin wrote: »

Arrived with Ryanair last night into T1 and it being a Friday night was expecting a serious wait. Breezed through with no wait at all. In fairness they seemed to have every booth open. No queue in the non EU either.

At the moment that is closer to the norm outside of the pinch points. Lxflyer has caught it very well for last night but this can happen at other times too.

Going back on earlier posts in this thread but looking at lxflyer'S analysis; for those who say "it's not rocket science they know what flights are coming" - look at the 22:00 hour last night - 8 fewer flights than expected. Also, it was publicly stated in recruitment papers so I can say it here; there is a shift which finishes at 02:00 so plenty of cover for the delays which are known too to happen. Hopefully as posters get the analysis and insights, they can see that the issues relate to infrastructure and airline operations not the organisation (and its staff) at whom the finger was pointed at various points during this thread.

veetwin

JCX BXC wrote: »

What time? That plays a large part.

Sorry yes you're right. Landed at 22.50 and hit passport control about 23.05

LXFlyer

veetwin wrote: »

Sorry yes you're right. Landed at 22.50 and hit passport control about 23.05

Well if you look at my analysis above you can see why!

Most of the flights landed after you between 11 and 12!

trellheim

Hopefully as posters get the analysis and insights, they can see that the issues relate to infrastructure and airline operations not the organisation (and its staff) at whom the finger was pointed at various points during this thread.

Partially true. INIS@Dublin are free to conduct their business just like other ports of entry like Connolly etc but do not do so. While further discussion of this will lead us back to banned CTA discussions , your assertion deserves challenge.

There is no denying Lxf's analysis about volume but neither is it broken down by origin immigration area.

The Veteran

Lxflyer'S analysis is very definitely broken down by area; very clearly so.

In relation to your point in CTA Trellheim your view of how the CTA should operate is irrelevant to the late night situation in the area serving the 100/200 Gates.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Partially true. INIS@Dublin are free to conduct their business just like other ports of entry like Connolly etc but do not do so. While further discussion of this will lead us back to banned CTA discussions , your assertion deserves challenge.

There is no denying Lxf's analysis about volume but neither is it broken down by origin immigration area.

The vast majority (especially the later arrivals) are from non-CTA locations for the record - but that's getting back into another issue.

The fundamental problem is the concentration of flights within such a short period, followed by the space available in the immigration hall.

JCX BXC

9 Ryanair arrivals between 10-12pm are CTA, it would be absurd to suggest this has no affect on the situation.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

9 Ryanair arrivals between 10-12pm are CTA, it would be absurd to suggest this has no affect on the situation.

I really don't want to do re-open that debate to be honest, it just goes round and round in circles. While it is clearly annoying, I've not seen any indication that the checking of all passports at Irish airports is going to change anytime soon, and on that basis, I was looking at it realistically from a practical perspective as to what can be done?

Either Ryanair could stagger their arrivals over a longer period (like Aer Lingus do), which I suspect is unlikely to happen, or (and I think this is the more realistic option) the DAA can do something about providing an adequately sized immigration hall with facilities that can meet the maximum scheduled number of arrivals in any hour from those gates.

Even if you took the CTA flights out, there would be queues - the basic issue is that the immigration hall can't cope with that volume of flights.

JCX BXC

lxflyer wrote: »

I really don't want to do re-open that debate to be honest, it just goes round and round in circles. While it is clearly annoying, I've not seen any indication that the checking of all passports at Irish airports is going to change anytime soon, and on that basis, I was looking at it realistically from a practical perspective as to what can be done?

Either Ryanair could stagger their arrivals over a longer period (like Aer Lingus do), which I suspect is unlikely to happen, or (and I think this is the more realistic option) the DAA can do something about providing an adequately sized immigration hall with facilities that can meet the maximum scheduled number of arrivals in any hour from those gates.

Which I accept perfectly, and had your point only been that I'd have to agree

Even if you took the CTA flights out, there would be queues - the basic issue is that the immigration hall can't cope with that volume of flights.

This is what can't go unchallenged. 9 flights is a significant number to take out of passport control, and would likely drastically reduce queues. Of course there would still be queues, but 20 minutes is much shorter than 40 minutes!

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

Which I accept perfectly, and had your point only been that I'd have to agree

This is what can't go unchallenged. 9 flights is a significant number to take out of passport control, and would likely drastically reduce queues. Of course there would still be queues, but 20 minutes is much shorter than 40 minutes!

Hang on - this isn't a court of law - I'm not trying to make a case here about the CTA - other people keep bringing it up.

I just did that analysis off my own bat out of sheer curiosity to see how the flights were scheduled, and I decided to share it.

Nothing more than that.

But that still leaves 19 non-CTA flights within a very short period (most of the scheduled arrivals after 23:00).

Realistically, do you think there is no likelihood of the CTA flights being taken out of passport control for the foreseeable future (irrespective of one's personal view on them)? Personally I don't see that changing - and that's the basis I am looking at it from - I'm purely looking at it from a practical perspective rather than bringing the politics into the equation.

JCX BXC

lxflyer wrote: »

Hang on - this isn't a court of law - I'm not trying to make a case here about the CTA - other people keep bringing it up.

I just did that analysis off my own bat out of sheer curiosity to see how the flights were scheduled, and I decided to share it.

Nothing more than that.

Realistically, do you think there is no likelihood of them being taken out of passport control for the foreseeable future (irrespective of one's personal view on them)?

Personally I don't see that changing - and that's the basis that we have to assess this - I'm purely looking at it from a practical perspective rather than bringing the politics into the equation.

I'd guarantee that if this was a court of law, the challenges would be much harsher.

I'd agree I can't see it changing for the foreseeable future, but you cannot write it off as it doesn't matter like you're currently doing, because it's quite clear it does matter and it does make a difference.

Irish Steve

The checking of passports at Dublin is unlikely to change any time soon for one very simple reason, even with how things stand now, and that's ignoring the eventual implications of Brexit, which could complicate things significantly.

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland. It is totally reasonable and acceptable to ensure that people entering Ireland are entitled to do so.

There is a very clear issue with the number of desks available to process arrivals through T1, given the peaks that the airline scheduling systems are causing, INIS have the staff, but they don't have the kiosks to deploy those staff due to space restrictions, which is a DAA issue. In theory, some flights could be bussed to T2 for processing, but that would have significant staff, cost and logistical implications, which would involve DAA, the airline handling agents and INIS, for what may turn out to be a short term issue, depending on how DAA plan to manage the installation of automatic gates in T1, the requirement that has to be addressed is to increase the number of gates/kiosks so that more passengers can be processed.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'd guarantee that if this was a court of law, the challenges would be much harsher.

I'd agree I can't see it changing for the foreseeable future, but you cannot write it off as it doesn't matter like you're currently doing, because it's quite clear it does matter and it does make a difference.

I'm not writing anything off. You are misinterpreting my point. The sheer volume of non-CTA flights alone in that short period means that there would be problems.

That immigration hall is too small to cope with it.

And as I posted above, I was looking at it from a practical rather than political perspective.

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland. It is totally reasonable and acceptable to ensure that people entering Ireland are entitled to do so.

Even a larger proportion than on Ferry or Rail? That would surprise me.

Anyway I'm not going to get that far into it, we've been through the Ferry Vs Rail Vs Plane debate.

My point is lxflyer, that you're simply saying it doesn't matter because it'll be busy anyway, which is a strange assertion to have. While it won't be removed for obvious political reasons (namely brexit as above), you cannot write it off as not mattering.

Also, Irish Steve you refer to it as possibly being a short term problem, I'd like to ask how you think the issue will improve in the future, say next summer and the summer after, as Dublin's growth is expected to stay strong.

Irish Steve

I would expect the INIS are involved with ongoing and very detailed discussions with DAA to ensure that they have enough space to be able to operate effectively, there are specific issues at present with the installation of automatic passport scanners, which will be installed in the autumn, and hopefully, DAA will also ensure that sufficient additional space is made available to allow for the number of kiosks that are needed to process the volumes.

DAA's track record at being proactive in dealing with problems is not good, I have either used or worked in most areas of the airport over nearly 30 years, and have watched with increasing incredulity as things have evolved over that time, on so many occasions, the changes made by DAA to deal with the issues have been at best short term and limited, with very little real vision or innovation.

I'd like to hope that things will improve, but I don't have huge confidence that the relevant people at DAA are still seeing beyond the "operating the biggest pub in Ireland" mentality that seems to have been their primary focus for too long.

LXFlyer

JCX BXC wrote: »

My point is lxflyer, that you're simply saying it doesn't matter because it'll be busy anyway, which is a strange assertion to have. While it won't be removed for obvious political reasons (namely brexit as above), you cannot write it off as not mattering.

I never said it didn't matter.

What I said was that the number of arriving flights within a short two hour period would cause problems at the best of times - as it happens the vast majority are non-CTA, and most of these are concentrated in the second hour of that period.

That's inevitably going to put pressure on the facilities regardless of whether the CTA flights were checked simply due to the large number of arriving flights within such a short period, given the size of the current immigration hall. A new larger hall is needed, full stop, to cope with the business that the DAA have encouraged - they should be providing facilities that are commensurate with the number of scheduled arrivals.

My point all along is that the facilities in T1 are put under significantly more pressure than the corresponding ones in T2 due to the fact that the entire Ryanair fleet returns within a much closer defined period than the Aer Lingus fleet and that the facilities cannot cope with that.

That's all - I have no wish to get involved in the CTA debate.

As I said in my original post - if you want to minimise the risk of being in a long queue, my simple advice at the moment, is to avoid flying on a Ryanair flight scheduled to arrive after 22:00.

trellheim

Even on CTA flights, there are now significant numbers travelling that are not entitled to use the "benefit" of CTA, as they are not residents of the UK or Ireland, and not EU citizens, so in some cases they need a visa to enter Ireland

And, as we all know, INIS are free to deal with them just as at other ports of entry - random intelligence led checks.


I am not reopening this debate but , as we've been round it many times it is not credible to claim that the problem is not down to purely DAA and the airlines. Yes, there is substantial volume to contend with - I can read an analysis as well as the next man - no denial of that. As long as the immigration agencies perform different processing at our airports than at other ports of entry this situation will continue.

Irish Steve

With the exception of a very limited number travelling on ferries from France, the underlying reason for the difference in processing at the airports is that every other route into Ireland the passengers have been processed through the (very structured and rigid) UK immigration and control processes, whereas there are no guarantees that people arriving into Dublin by air have been through an EU or UK passport control check, due to the somewhat nebulous manner in which such formalities are carried out at European locations, and in some cases, a transit passenger into Ireland via an EU airport may well not have been fully and appropriately checked prior to arrival in Ireland, and the numbers arriving in Dublin massively dwarfs the numbers arriving by ferry or across the border from the North.

Then there is the issue of the sheer volume of numbers. I've travelled on a number of the ferries over the last while, the numbers of foot passengers on most sailings is relatively low, and can be managed quite easily, whereas there are no facilities at the airport to perform checks on each flight, unless you want to put a passport control point on each gate, which is not going to be practical, given that the same gate can be used for an A330, and the next flight on that gate could be an ATR42, which would mean having multiple kiosks at each gate, which is going to cause all manner of problems, and could well significantly delay the off loading of flights, which won't go down well with the airlines, handling agents or DAA.

There are probably more passengers per day at the airport than there are in a month on the ferries, that's the reality of the way that travel has changed, and the issue at the airport is the way that passengers can cross Europe in a very short time with minimal checks, and with the numbers using Dublin as a transit hub, there are significant pressures from other countries to make sure that "the system" is aware of and managing such passengers.

killbillvol2

Time to unfollow this thread. It's going round in circles.

JCX BXC

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Time to unfollow this thread. It's going round in circles.

Good luck!

Don't like this force closure of discussion, it's quite wrong.

Spanish Eyes

DAA don't give a dam. If they did they would be all over the DOJ/DFA like a rash to get it sorted, and/or would extend the immigration hall to look half decent.

But they don't care about immigration, only the concessions, and anything else that results in income.

Immigration halls do not do that.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.