The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

grogi

Jogathon wrote: »

I'm in full agreement with Passport Officer on this point.....

Reminds me of the hill in Croke Park. "Hill 16 is Dublin only." Hilarious attitude.

My wife had a similar, yet much funnier story in Roma, Fiumicino.

She approached the baggage drop desk, the lady behind the counter greeted her:
- Bon Giorno, where are you flying to? (in no way my wife looks Italian, they did not even try Italian)
- Buongiorno (with a thick southern accent)
- Palermo - she cut in - obviously.

;-)

Sup08

Negative_G wrote: »

Some really interesting discussion on this subject.

Someone else asked the question previously.

Say returning on a flight from the UK, I decided to proceed straight through the gate without showing ID as the 2004 Act seems to imply that I can do, what would happen?

I'm sure that it would cause a stir but you haven't committed ant offence if I'm reading the act correctly.

I'm sure you will get stopped as you have not shown that you have traveled from within the CTA.
All flights from the UK and mainland Europe (Ryanair and others) arrive into the same terminal, therefore passengers arriving from the CTA cannot be distinguished from passengers arriving from mainland Europe.

I don't think it is the function of immigration to control what gates the flights taxi to and passengers disembark, therefore leaving immigration with no other option but to immigrate everyone the same.

If the DAA were to provide a separate terminal/area for flights from the CTA, then I'm sure there may be a different immigration function at the Airport in this CTA area.

So until the current ongoing works are completed in T1 by the Airport Authority, the queues may remain if the booth number are not increased with staff no where to sit and immigrate.

Going to or from Belfast on a train or Hollyhead/Liverpool on a boat are exactly that, they are ports within the CTA. Random checks are performed as these ports by Gardai. Any boats/ships arriving outside the CTA in Dublin maybe treated differently as they arrive into a different dock.

plodder

Sup08 wrote: »

I'm sure you will get stopped as you have not shown that you have traveled from within the CTA.
All flights from the UK and mainland Europe (Ryanair and others) arrive into the same terminal, therefore passengers arriving from the CTA cannot be distinguished from passengers arriving from mainland Europe.

I don't think it is the function of immigration to control what gates the flights taxi to and passengers disembark, therefore leaving immigration with no other option but to immigrate everyone the same.

If the DAA were to provide a separate terminal/area for flights from the CTA, then I'm sure there may be a different immigration function at the Airport in this CTA area.

So until the current ongoing works are completed in T1 by the Airport Authority, the queues may remain if the booth number are not increased with staff no where to sit and immigrate.

Going to or from Belfast on a train or Hollyhead/Liverpool on a boat are exactly that, they are ports within the CTA. Random checks are performed as these ports by Gardai. Any boats/ships arriving outside the CTA in Dublin maybe treated differently as they arrive into a different dock.

What you seem to be saying here is that immigration procedures at Dublin Airport have evolved really just to fit in with the configuration of the arrivals area at any particular time. This wouldn't surprise me really, but it's a totally unacceptable situation.

After all, we do actually own the DAA. The government, who we elect, set immigration policies and procedures. If it's the case that these are independent empires within the state, that wouldn't surprise me either, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable. Just to add though, that's the fault of politicians, not the immigration service, or the DAA in my opinion.

Sup08

plodder wrote: »

What you seem to be saying here is that immigration procedures at Dublin Airport have evolved really just to fit in with the configuration of the arrivals area at any particular time. This wouldn't surprise me really, but it's a totally unacceptable situation.

Well, when Brexit does eventually happen and in the worse case, a hard border must return to the North and ports, then immigration whether managed by INIS or the Guards has to evolve to the changes with the borders they need to manage as the CTA will no longer exist in its current format.

IQO

Just counting about 14 inbound flights this close to Dublin at the moment, mostly Ryanair - let's see if there the immigration process goes quicker this Sunday evening.

jeanjolie

Is it a bit sad that Ireland is one of the few countries in Western Europe that doesn't seem to have Electronic passport gates in service on a daily basis?

Know they were put on a trial basis but so far...nothing.

IQO

IQO wrote: »

Just counting about 14 inbound flights this close to Dublin at the moment, mostly Ryanair - let's see if there the immigration process goes quicker this Sunday evening.

And it's on

https://twitter.com/DarraghMcKenna/status/868959112310272000

https://twitter.com/clearyb1/status/868967782385373184

https://twitter.com/gareth_c/status/868962948907249666

Negative_G

The whole fiasco stinks of a "union rules, bud" type management.

Absolutely disgraceful.

The Veteran

Yawn ...

Why don't the keyboard warriors on here and Twitter ask the relevant authorities appropriate questions.


Ask the Dept of Justice how many staff are currently on duty (tonight)?

Ask them how many they and GNIB shave stopped entering Ireland this week?

Ask them how many desks are open (don't rely on the broken signs

Ask daa what the queue times are?

Ask daa why they have not built a bigger hall?

Ask daa how many flights have landed since 23:00; how many are in time; how many passengers are being unloaded in the period and what the expected throughput is?

Then look up the ICAO targets at EU airport's for EU passengers

After all that come back and post ...

(And yes I do have a vested interest)

trellheim

I'm sure you will get stopped as you have not shown that you have traveled from within the CTA.

under what law , - there is no requirement on me to prove I have done so, if I am an Irish citizen. If he asks - well and good otherwise walk on past.

DAA , GNIB, INIS, DOJ - see that - thats a list of acronyms that could not give a fk.

Gatwick force FR and EI to bus CTA arrivals away from the normal run , and there's random checks. Heathrow, Edi, Bhx , City, Stansted all segregated channels with random checks. In fact all UK airports manage it without fuss

Ireland ? No. Not even an apology for treating people like dirt ; watch the twitter feeds , DAA in particular for "not our problem guv"

trellheim

Ask the Dept of Justice how many staff are currently on duty (tonight)?

Ask them how many they and GNIB shave stopped entering Ireland this week?

Ask them how many desks are open (don't rely on the broken signs

Ask daa what the queue times are?

Ask daa why they have not built a bigger hall?

Ask daa how many flights have landed since 23:00; how many are in time; how many passengers are being unloaded in the period and what the expected throughput is?

Then look up the ICAO targets at EU airport's for EU passengers

After all that come back and post ...

(And yes I do have a vested interest)

Really ? it doesn't come across - at all.

Perhaps more important questions - where's the CTA passenger segregation and make passport control actually a passport control


You seem to think those stats you quote above are relevant ; is there a customer charter for CTA passengers , and is there one for non-CTA passengers which lays out what level of SLA we can expect from GNIB and INIS

Your attitude "Yawn" sets out exactly the kind of blase attitude from someone sat in a booth that one would expect.

Negative_G

The Veteran wrote: »

Yawn ...

Why don't the keyboard warriors on here and Twitter ask the relevant authorities appropriate questions.


Ask the Dept of Justice how many staff are currently on duty (tonight)?

Ask them how many they and GNIB shave stopped entering Ireland this week?

Ask them how many desks are open (don't rely on the broken signs

Ask daa what the queue times are?

Ask daa why they have not built a bigger hall?

Ask daa how many flights have landed since 23:00; how many are in time; how many passengers are being unloaded in the period and what the expected throughput is?

Then look up the ICAO targets at EU airport's for EU passengers

After all that come back and post ...

(And yes I do have a vested interest)

Just missing a "not my problem, bud" in there also.

If all these issues and questions are so glaringly obvious, what have you or your vested interest done to address them, aside from appointing blame?

The Veteran

Negative_G wrote: »

Just missing a "not my problem, bud" in there also.

If all these issues and questions are so glaringly obvious, what have you or your vested interest done to address them, aside from appointing blame?

Ask the DOJ show many staff are on duty tonight....

Atlantic Dawn

Would the same problem have happened last Sunday night?

Negative_G

The Veteran wrote: »

Ask the DOJ show many staff are on duty tonight....

Seems like you already know the answer so why don't you tell us.

The Veteran

Negative_G wrote: »

Seems like you already know the answer so why don't you tell us.

I do as it happens but the question should be asked officially.

There are more officers on duty tonight than there are desks available. The daa has reduced the size of the Hall with building works. The daa are the Ines who stop passengers in the Bridge.

All desks have been open all night ...

There are multiple delays tonight

Etc etc

Theres a piece in this weekends Irish Mail on Sunday saying that the automatic passport control gates in T1 are out of action until the Autumn. Apparently theres a row over maintenance contracts. If thats true, heads need to roll.

languagenerd

Saw this thread last week and was a bit worried about flying back tonight, but there was no queue at all when I came through there just before 10pm. One person ahead of me. Three desks open.

If some of those 11pm planes could be moved forwards a bit, it would balance the queues out. (Or more staff on - but I suppose the argument is that they hardly need anyone for most of the shift when it was so quiet at 9:45/10pm...)

The Veteran

A bit of balance ...

kravmaga

The DOJ have recruited heavily over the past 12 months for ICO civilian clerical officer grade.

So a major recruitment campaign and 12 hour work roster, seems strange that all of a sudden there is massive Q's, the whole idea here was to free up GNIB Officers and re-deploy into core Policing duties and civilised the whole operation with a handful of specialist knowledge GNIB left at the airport for arrest or referral of suspect passport holders or potential criminal investigations.

So where is the solution, is it Department of Justice, DAA, or a combination of poor allocation of resources?

IngazZagni

I passed through there this evening. Some delays indeed. Not a staff issue I feel though. There were plenty immigration staff and most booths were open. They do need more though. they also need a big e gate area at the side and not in the middle. What an awful design but they're not even working anyway.
The non EU line was moving painfully slowly and some were not allowed through and sent to side rooms.

I think you can get a perfect storm of a handful of slightly delayed flights causing multiple aircraft arriving at the exact same time.

Atlantic Dawn

When we hit Brexit the non EU Q will multiply by about 10 times plus.

IngazZagni

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When we hit Brexit the non EU Q will multiply by about 20-30 times.

I would be hopeful that the CTA will still be around and the EU line becomes EU and UK or else we amend the CTA immigration law in Ireland to allow them to skip passport control like it is in the UK. We may be at the mercy of the bigger nations in Europe dictating these rules to us.

grogi

IngazZagni wrote: »

I would be hopeful that the CTA will still be around and the EU line becomes EU and UK or else we amend the CTA immigration law in Ireland to allow them to skip passport control like it is in the UK. We may be at the mercy of the bigger nations in Europe dictating these rules to us.

Border control has nothing to do with EU. EU != Schengen...

eeguy

nc6000 wrote: »

My parents came through there earlier today and said it took them about an hour. Apparently they were told that 22 plans has landed within an hour of each other.

Why can they not have sufficient staff on at busy times? Surely they know how many planes are due in, where they are originating and what times of the day are going to be the busiest.

Because busy times may only be an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. They can't bring in 6 people to work a 2 hour split shift.

markpb

eeguy wrote: »

Because busy times may only be an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. They can't bring in 6 people to work a 2 hour split shift.

How do you think public transport operators deal with morning and afternoon peaks in traffic? Do they stable the buses at 4pm and claim it's impossible to bring drivers in to deal with the evening rush?

grogi

eeguy wrote: »

Because busy times may only be an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. They can't bring in 6 people to work a 2 hour split shift.

But surely there are people doing other things during the day. Reassign them for an hour during the rush-time should not be a big thing...

eeguy

markpb wrote: »

How do you think public transport operators deal with morning and afternoon peaks in traffic? Do they stable the buses at 4pm and claim it's impossible to bring drivers in to deal with the evening rush?

No, they run shift patterns; morning, afternoon and evenings, with overlap in between to cope with rush hours.
There's no comparison between public transport and passport control.

grogi wrote: »

But surely there are people doing other things during the day. Reassign them for an hour during the rush-time should not be a big thing...

I presume passport controllers have their own title and training. Given DA's past there'd probably be cries of demarcation if others were brought in to do the job part time.

trellheim

E gates will not help CTA passengers, who are not required to present a passport, or, indeed, any type of identification unless requested to do so.

I'd note that the administrative processing of this has even been considered utter lunacy by a judge - see http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2011/H491.html#para18 for reference to Catch-22 Joseph Heller.

As for the request for balance above , you (as in your organizations ) are the one refusing to implement the spirit of CTA ; removal of CTA passengers from the throng would allow immigration personnel concentrate on those who actually are required to be checked and you can do random checks as required. this would reduce queue size hugely.

There is nothing in law stopping this occurring.

EEguy - you know it is so messed up that INIS run T1 immigration and GNIB run T2 immigration ? i.e. you have two completely different bodies doing the same thing

xl500

Red Alert wrote: »

I can't imagine moving from Gardai to civilian staff has helped.

Well looking at whats happening in the Gardai I think civilian staff would be just as good how would Civilian staff not be as competent as Gardai to do passport control

plodder

Here's a thought. Why don't we just let passengers arriving from the UK through without any checks (sorry with random spot checks) like we do at the NI border and the sea ports, and like we used to do?

markpb

eeguy wrote: »

No, they run shift patterns; morning, afternoon and evenings, with overlap in between to cope with rush hours. There's no comparison between public transport and passport control.

Actually, no, they use split shifts called bogeys or (sometimes) euro duties. Most drivers work the shift patterns you describe but another group work a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the afternoon. Those drivers provide the extra capacity needed during the peak times.

Why exactly is scheduling bus drivers any different to scheduling passport control staff?

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

E gates will not help CTA passengers, who are not required to present a passport, or, indeed, any type of identification unless requested to do so.

I'd note that the administrative processing of this has even been considered utter lunacy by a judge - see http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2011/H491.html#para18 for reference to Catch-22 Joseph Heller.

As for the request for balance above , you (as in your organizations ) are the one refusing to implement the spirit of CTA ; removal of CTA passengers from the throng would allow immigration personnel concentrate on those who actually are required to be checked and you can do random checks as required. this would reduce queue size hugely.

There is nothing in law stopping this occurring.

EEguy - you know it is so messed up that INIS run T1 immigration and GNIB run T2 immigration ? i.e. you have two completely different bodies doing the same thing

Again though, the CTA freedom of movement only applies to UK & Irish citizens.

What about non-Irish and UK citizens making a CTA trip? They are still subject to full immigration controls and are required to have a passport and a specific visa for Ireland and a separate one for Britain.

How do you suggest that is policed - you keep ignoring that point whenever I ask it.

What would stop those citizens from using a notional Irish and UK citizen corridor? That issue is far greater for Ireland than for the UK given the vast disparity in terms of direct flights from outside the EU into the UK over those into Ireland, which is presumably one of the reasons that Irish immigration view it as a bigger risk.

Until we get a proper international agreement covering the CTA, along with common visas this problem is going to continue.

eeguy

markpb wrote: »

Actually, no, they use split shifts called bogeys or (sometimes) euro duties. Most drivers work the shift patterns you describe but another group work a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the afternoon. Those drivers provide the extra capacity needed during the peak times.

Why exactly is scheduling bus drivers any different to scheduling passport control staff?

eeguy wrote: »

Because busy times may only be an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. They can't bring in 6 people to work a 2 hour split shift.

I'll just repeat myself then.

markpb

eeguy wrote: »

I'll just repeat myself then.

That doesn't explain why at all.

ohnonotgmail

plodder wrote: »

Here's a thought. Why don't we just let passengers arriving from the UK through without any checks (sorry with random spot checks) like we do at the NI border and the sea ports, and like we used to do?

Which is exactly what they do when flying from Ireland to the UK. cant remember the last time i was asked for ID when entering a UK airport from a flight from dublin.

lxflyer wrote: »

Again though, the CTA freedom of movement only applies to UK & Irish citizens.

What about non-Irish and UK citizens making a CTA trip? They are still subject to full immigration controls and are required to have a passport and a specific visa for Ireland and a separate one for Britain.

How do you suggest that is policed - you keep ignoring that point whenever I ask it.

What would stop those citizens from using a notional Irish and UK citizen corridor? That issue is far greater for Ireland than for the UK given the vast disparity in terms of direct flights from outside the EU into the UK over those into Ireland, which is presumably one of the reasons that Irish immigration view it as a bigger risk.

Until we get a proper international agreement covering the CTA, along with common visas this problem is going to continue.

the british dont bother to police it as they know it is pointless.

Blue House Bear

Came through yesterday. 16 desks are there. 2 are open for EU and 1 for non-EU in terminal 2. The queue was 7 lines deep. I really resent the fact that I have to wait so long to get back into my own country.

trellheim

What about non-Irish and UK citizens making a CTA trip? They are still subject to full immigration controls and are required to have a passport and a specific visa for Ireland and a separate one for Britain.

How do you suggest that is policed - you keep ignoring that point whenever I ask it.

I suggest it is policed in a consistent way with that of taking the other CTA transport operators , e.g. bus from Newry to Dundalk , the train from Central to Connolly, Irish Ferries Holyhead to Dublin Port , i.e. random, intelligence-led checks .

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

I suggest it is policed in a consistent way with that of taking the other CTA transport operators , e.g. bus from Newry to Dundalk , the train from Central to Connolly, Irish Ferries Holyhead to Dublin Port , i.e. random, intelligence-led checks .

Let's be honest though - the numbers using those routes are dwarfed by those using the airlines to come into Ireland.

There really isn't any comparison between the two.

There is an issue there in terms of immigration control into this country, whether you like it or not.

LXFlyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Which is exactly what they do when flying from Ireland to the UK. cant remember the last time i was asked for ID when entering a UK airport from a flight from dublin.




the british dont bother to police it as they know it is pointless.

Again though - the numbers of people potentially arriving into the CTA via Ireland and proceeding to the UK is considerably lower than those doing it the other way around given the massive difference in the number of flights into the UK.

ohnonotgmail

lxflyer wrote: »

Again though - the numbers of people potentially arriving into the CTA via Ireland and proceeding to the UK is considerably lower than those doing it the other way around given the massive difference in the number of flights into the UK.

you think it is being used as a backdoor to illegal immigration into ireland? if they want to do that they can just get the boat.

flexcon

Just came through last night, waited 38mins. 2 desks open, 1 for Non EU. I chanced the non EU as there was only 1 person in the queue. Judged who was behind and in front of me and went for it to trial was it faster. Got through it fine, and skipped 5 people from the other queue in doing so. not that much difference.

Why are the digital scanning desks closed? Seems mad when I am trying to catch the bloody Aircoach. I even mentioned this to the lady that my bus leaves in 10 mins, and she said there is nothing she can do. If anything you should have some express system.

LXFlyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you think it is being used as a backdoor to illegal immigration into ireland? if they want to do that they can just get the boat.

From what "The Veteran" has posted in the past, it is an issue yes. They've already said that there are more problems found in the EU queue than the other one.

There are minute numbers of sailings into Ireland each day, making it much easier to police, when compared with the massive number of flights that operate.

J.pilkington

lxflyer wrote: »

From what "The Veteran" has posted in the past, it is an issue yes. They've already said that there are more problems found in the EU queue than the other one.

There are minute numbers of sailings into Ireland each day, making it much easier to police, when compared with the massive number of flights that operate.

You are completely missing his point, the checks at ports on arrival are non existent / very minor compared to those at airports (even before the recent increased checks at airports)

You have always had a better chance of gaining illegal entry via boat (although you would first need to gain entry to the uk / France)

LXFlyer

J.pilkington wrote: »

You are completely missing his point, the checks at ports on arrival are non existent / very minor compared to those at airports (even before the recent increased checks at airports)

You have always had a better chance of gaining illegal entry via boat (although you would first need to gain entry to the uk / France)

It is far easier to do intelligence based checks (or indeed checks of any form) on the sailings though, given the very small of sailings each day.

It's a completely different situation to the large numbers arriving by air.

trellheim

Let's be honest though - the numbers using those routes are dwarfed by those using the airlines to come into Ireland.

There really isn't any comparison between the two.

There is an issue there in terms of immigration control into this country, whether you like it or not.

1. The numbers crossing the IE/NI border every day is far larger than the airport numbers.
2. There IS a comparison : one is entitled to consistent immigration procedures irrespective of the location.

stop trying to muffle the issue.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

1. The numbers crossing the IE/NI border every day is far larger than the airport numbers.
2. There IS a comparison : one is entitled to consistent immigration procedures irrespective of the location.

stop trying to muffle the issue.

With respect I am not trying to "muffle" anything - I am highlighting an aspect of the CTA that you just want pushed under the carpet. It might not be what you want to hear, but the risks are there.

I seriously doubt that the numbers of non-Irish & UK citizens crossing the ROI/NI border is far larger than those passing through the airports. It's far easier to police them and the ports by intelligence and random checks.

In my opinion the checks are greatest at the locations where the numbers entering the country that need to be checked (i.e. non-Irish and UK citizens) are doing so.

I realise that doesn't sit with your view of zero CTA checks, but until we have common visas for the whole of the CTA, along with a full international legal agreement backing the status of the CTA up, then I don't see this changing.

The queues at the airport on the other hand are down to not having large enough immigration halls primarily, and that is ultimately a DAA issue. It's also not helped if a bunch of flights are delayed and all arrive within a short period.

The Veteran

flexcon wrote: »

Just came through last night, waited 38mins. 2 desks open, 1 for Non EU. I chanced the non EU as there was only 1 person in the queue. Judged who was behind and in front of me and went for it to trial was it faster. Got through it fine, and skipped 5 people from the other queue in doing so. not that much difference.

Why are the digital scanning desks closed? Seems mad when I am trying to catch the bloody Aircoach. I even mentioned this to the lady that my bus leaves in 10 mins, and she said there is nothing she can do. If anything you should have some express system.

Flexcon, what Terminal did you come through? I ask because at no time last night were only three desks open in the main Terminal 1 area.

trellheim

With respect I am not trying to "muffle" anything - I am highlighting an aspect of the CTA that you just want pushed under the carpet. It might not be what you want to hear, but the risks are there.

I seriously doubt that the numbers of non-Irish & UK citizens crossing the ROI/NI border is far larger than those passing through the airports. It's far easier to police them and the ports by intelligence and random checks.

In my opinion the checks are greatest at the locations where the numbers entering the country that need to be checked (i.e. non-Irish and UK citizens) are doing so.

I realise that doesn't sit with your view of zero CTA checks, but until we have common visas for the whole of the CTA, along with a full international legal agreement backing the status of the CTA up, then I don't see this changing.

The queues at the airport on the other hand are down to not having large enough immigration halls primarily, and that is ultimately a DAA issue. It's also not helped if a bunch of flights are delayed and all arrive within a short period.

The key phrase here is 'opinion' and that is fine, just as all of our posts here are. Yours and mine are very different.

Again - you are trying to muffle the issue. I am not arguing for zero CTA checks, only a consistent implementation across all borders. Random checks does fine everywhere other than airports. This, implemented for CTA , would remove the queues instantly, and allow the CTA to function as it should.

I repeat - for UK & IE citizens on inbound CTA flights, you are not required by law to show ID unless it is demanded.

grogi

trellheim wrote: »

I repeat - for UK & IE citizens on inbound CTA flights, you are not required by law to show ID unless it is demanded.

So it is atm.