The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

trellheim

My experience with eGates is they will not speed things up .

1) the largest individual cohort of inbounds ( the UK ) is not required to present a document that will operate them . Six of the top 10 routes into Dub are UK ( source dublin airport wiki )

2. Dusseldorf last week was taking several seconds per gate cycle ( they scan inbounds too so a double whammy )

JCX BXC

trellheim wrote: »

My experience with eGates is they will not speed things up .

1) the largest individual cohort of inbounds ( the UK ) is not required to present a document that will operate them . Six of the top 10 routes into Dub are UK ( source dublin airport wiki )

2. Dusseldorf last week was taking several seconds per gate cycle ( they scan inbounds too so a double whammy )

Why wouldn't they? Assuming they maintain most or all booths, doesn't it just add capacity?

1). Most UK pax into T1 fly Ryanair (as opposed to Cityjet and BA) and hence are only allowed a passport as ID. I'd imagine most BA and Cityjet pax fly with passports too anyway.

2). I don't understand your second point.

Avada

trellheim wrote: »

My experience with eGates is they will not speed things up .

1) the largest individual cohort of inbounds ( the UK ) is not required to present a document that will operate them . Six of the top 10 routes into Dub are UK ( source dublin airport wiki )

A. Not everyone on a UK flight is Uk/Irish.

B. Ryanair account for most of the flights in T1 that you refer to, they require a passport.

C. Even where Irish/UK Nationals don't require a passport, most present one.

The Veteran

Some facts:

The eGate works haven't started yet. The hoarding at the moment in T1 relates to the Pier 2 segregation works. EGate works start shortly and will reduce space more at that time.

Pier 3 is restricted at the moment because fire safety stuff had to be done and is late.

The Summer has gone well - no real congestion to discuss.

EGates work on the basis of biometrics and encrypted travel documents - passengers from any flight can use them. What documents individual passengers are required by law to carry is a different argument but equally 65% of pax are not travelling to\from the UK.

Busiest Summer ever in airport and no real issues.

An individual transaction on an eGate is slower than a manual desk but from a productivity point of view, one officer is monitoring multiple Gates simultaneously and thus the number of passengers processed in the same time increases and certainly so per officer in a period.

Pier 1/2 Immigration Hall needs more space - fact.

Pier 3 is having more and more long haul "dumped" into it and needs capacity to process the loads.

Terminal 2 has loads of capacity.

Finally, passengers need to understand that crossing a border is not an instantaneous experience; at busy times it takes time.

Avada

Thanks for the update. Wasn't sure about prep work for egates.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

My experience with eGates is they will not speed things up .

1) the largest individual cohort of inbounds ( the UK ) is not required to present a document that will operate them . Six of the top 10 routes into Dub are UK ( source dublin airport wiki )

2. Dusseldorf last week was taking several seconds per gate cycle ( they scan inbounds too so a double whammy )

What people are required to do and what they will do are two different things.

The vast majority of the people using the facility at the 100/200 gates will be arriving Ryanair passengers, and that airline requires all passengers flying with them to be in possession of a valid passport to fly with them.

I suspect that the vast majority of Ryanair passengers would not be so ideologically opposed to using their passport at the e-gates to wish to queue to show a driving licence or other ID to an immigration officer instead.

But for those that wish to not use their passport, they can still use a manual desk and show whatever ID they wish.

The arrival of the e-gates will surely mean that more lanes will be available, and as such it should speed things up.

J.pilkington

LXFlyer wrote: »

What people are required to do and what they will do are two different things.

The vast majority of the people using the facility at the 100/200 gates will be arriving Ryanair passengers, and that airline requires all passengers flying with them to be in possession of a valid passport to fly with them.

I suspect that the vast majority of Ryanair passengers would not be so ideologically opposed to using their passport at the e-gates to wish to queue to show a driving licence or other ID to an immigration officer instead.

But for those that wish to not use their passport, they can still use a manual desk and show whatever ID they wish.

The arrival of the e-gates will surely mean that more lanes will be available, and as such it should speed things up.

Assuming a smooth E-gate process (no human error with the egate machine) it is my experience that the egate takes longer versus existing human process and the same will apply in Dublin. We are not talking a large amount of time but egate is definitely slower. This is my experience from multiple usage in various eu airports.

If you have used e-gates you will know this - you scan your passport, it takes about ten seconds for the scan to complete(a blue bar tracks process so it's not a case of passport being placed incorrectly), then you step into the enclosed area and a facial scan takes place then the second gate opens and you are complete.

Compare the above to handing your passport to the human who places on their machine (assume it's just an infrared machine) and then hands back.

In fact if I see a human desk free I will always use over the egate

LXFlyer

J.pilkington wrote: »

Assuming a smooth E-gate process (no human error with the egate machine) it is my experience that the egate takes longer versus existing human process and the same will apply in Dublin. We are not talking a large amount of time but egate is definitely slower. This is my experience from multiple usage in various eu airports.

If you have used e-gates you will know this - you scan your passport, it takes about ten seconds for the scan to complete(a blue bar tracks process so it's not a case of passport being placed incorrectly), then you step into the enclosed area and a facial scan takes place then the second gate opens and you are complete.

Compare the above to handing your passport to the human who places on their machine (assume it's just an infrared machine) and then hands back.

In fact if I see a human desk free I will always use over the egate

That may well be - but if there are more lanes as a result of using the e-gates, then surely the combination of them and the booths will mean that overall more people will get processed in the same time?

The Veteran

LxFlyer is right and jpiljington is right but it's exactly what I said - an individual Gate transaction is slower than a manual desk transaction (like for like passenger) because of the nature of the process. The two processes are not like for like though.

In Dublin there will be 5 Gates monitored by 1 officer. The officer will "see" more passengers in a minute than they would on the a manual lane.

The Gates will add capacity no doubt but there will still be congestion at times depending on what flights land, who is on them, etc.

For example, no plan to put Gates in Pier 3, but that is turning into the "international Pier".

medoc

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

Jamie2k9

medoc wrote: »

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

My God 20 minutes wait, it's just outrageous :rolleyes:

Negative_G

medoc wrote: »

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

The lads need their tea break.

Or else they were doing incredibly difficult investigation and immigration work behind the scenes where no one can see them.

To be fair though, 20 minutes isn't too bad. Maybe the union have finally agreed to stagger the tea breaks.

J.pilkington

medoc wrote: »

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

I find Brussels airport one of the worst in the EU and at its worst is as bad as Dublin for queuing times especially in the morning, however as an experience it's a lot worse than Dublin because there is no organisation with the queues, it's just a crowd of unsegregated people pushing forward towards desks. At least Dublin have the taped lane which is actively managed and these lanes probably makes the queue look worse than Brussels

killbillvol2

medoc wrote: »

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

Irish people complaining? Shocking.

LXFlyer

medoc wrote: »

Arrived at T1 tonight at the 100 gates with the sign after the longish walk stating a 5 minute wait at 19.54. Got to the T1 arrivals security hall and found 4!!! EU checks open. Two non EU open. We were out of the check hall by 20.18 . Now before the usual INIS apology boy pops up or indeed the usual DAA apologists that's unacceptable. Wasn't lots of delayed flights, it was just lots of closed desks. By far the worst delay all weekend was in Dublin. Flew through Brussels both in and out. The amount of complaints heard in the queue was shocking. If it was busy then....fairenough but...Bad form Ireland with so many empty booths. .

Do we really need people to be branded as "apology boys" or apologists?

Just because someone takes the time to explain things doesn't make them worthy of descriptions like that.

It should be possible to have a discussion about this without being insulting which frankly that sounds like.

Avada

Negative_G wrote: »

The lads need their tea break.

Or else they were doing incredibly difficult investigation and immigration work behind the scenes where no one can see them.

To be fair though, 20 minutes isn't too bad. Maybe the union have finally agreed to stagger the tea breaks.

Breaks have always been staggered where possible (at least in my experience).

Negative_G

Avada wrote: »

Breaks have always been staggered where possible (at least in my experience).

Glad to hear it.

Avada

Negative_G wrote: »

Glad to hear it.

Just to add, it's also not heavily unionised, which may surprise a lot of people. Most are new civil servants and either not in the union or recent union joiners, I wouldn't have even known who the union rep was during my time working there....

JCX BXC

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Irish people complaining? Shocking.

Just head over to the weather forum

The Veteran

I assume I am the leader of the "apologists". I am proud of what I and my colleagues do and whether some actually understand what they are doing or not (I.e. crossing an international border), frankly is a matter for them.

If any passenger who has arrived in the last 24 hours took the time to check they will see that there are now only 9 desks available since the builders fencing went up today behind which the eGates will be installed. There is now a very bottleneck in the area and accessing the temporary booths is now very tight and difficult.

After that, the numbers on duty have never been higher and are more than adequate for the numbers of booths available.

It will be 12 weeks before the situation changes\improves.

medoc

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

My God 20 minutes wait, it's just outrageous :rolleyes:

No its no outrageous. But having only 4 EU desks and open with an advertised time of 5 minutes on the DAA screens is. Poor impression of our country. Especially when we hear on hear its not either DAA or INIS fault with each blaming each other. If there are not enough things staff, hire more if it's not enough space and desks build more. But tonight it was not enough staff. Plenty of closed desks.

medoc

LXFlyer wrote: »

Do we really need people to be branded as "apology boys" or apologists?

Just because someone takes the time to explain things doesn't make them worthy of descriptions like that.

It should be possible to have a discussion about this without being insulting which frankly that sounds like.

Fair dues. And fair point

killbillvol2

medoc wrote: »

No its no outrageous. But having only 4 EU desks and open with an advertised time of 5 minutes on the DAA screens is. Poor impression of our country. Especially when we hear on hear its not either DAA or INIS fault with each blaming each other. If there are not enough things staff, hire more if it's not enough space and desks build more. But tonight it was not enough staff. Plenty of closed desks.

Well, according to The Veteran there are 9 available desks due to the building work you request above. And 6 of them were open according to you. Exaggerate much?

The Veteran

There are 6 desks that are visible (the old permanent ones) and three 'temporary' ones that are in to the far left and are very hard to see.

The reality is that congestion in the area is a fact now until the end of November.

There is no shortage of staff.

All the comments about tea breaks, unions, etc is uninformed populism.

9 desks, 3 of which are difficult to see, a very significant bottleneck feeding the desks, a small hall, 3 separate building projects, ...

Hotblack Desiato

Negative_G wrote: »

To be fair though, 20 minutes isn't too bad. Maybe the union have finally agreed to stagger the tea breaks.

That's just the usual ignorant anti-public-service nonsense and it needs to be called out for what it is. These people have responsible jobs and they are performing their jobs. If they were waving all and sundry through, it'd reduce the queues but I doubt you'd be happy with that, either.

trellheim

Remind me : will the gates take

passport card ? Polish Identity card ?


I saw a masked off area in T2 control last night which looks like its for the gates . . ( we really should stop calling it passport control because technically its incorrect and not inclusive . Border control might be more relevant



Finally please fix the broken signs in T1 control

The Veteran

The Gates will take ICAO compliant eDocunents valid for travel.

The hoarding is for Gates

The signs in T1 belong to daa and relate to booths that are no longer is use. That entire hall is due to be refurbished

ohnonotgmail

The Veteran wrote: »

The Gates will take ICAO compliant eDocunents valid for travel.

The hoarding is for Gates

The signs in T1 belong to daa and relate to booths that are no longer is use. That entire hall is due to be refurbished

is there a list of what constitutes icao compliant edocuments? i went through brussels airport last weekend and the only documents the gates accepted were passports.

The Veteran

We are actually "breaking new ground" on that one. Basically an ID card with the e-chip symbol is eligible (there are rules around validity for travel but leave that to one side). Not all ID scarfs have the chip.

There is an ICAO standard (a technical document) that sets out what the document has to be to be compliant.

Negative_G

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's just the usual ignorant anti-public-service nonsense and it needs to be called out for what it is. These people have responsible jobs and they are performing their jobs. If they were waving all and sundry through, it'd reduce the queues but I doubt you'd be happy with that, either.

'Performance' is subjective. Someone can turn up to work and breathe, but if there is no metric to assess their performance, then how do you measure it? Especially when there is no clear charter or any form of annual appraisal that I am aware of. Open to correction.

The public service in general is littered with inefficiencies and red tape which makes doing the smallest simplest thing difficult and expensive. This is widespread across all departments. There are few exceptions to this in my experience.

Call that 'anti public service nonsense' if you will. You're entitled to your opinion.

The two posters who evidently work/used to work their are doing their level best to defend their profession and inform others. Fair play to them.

That being said, I've seen several examples of "not my problem", "not my job", "DAA's fault" "look it up for yourself" and avoiding direct questions to tell me that the their organisation is no different to the various PS bodies that I've dealt with and I can draw my own conclusions as a result.