The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

Jawgap

The Veteran wrote: »

Jawgap, if you want to list your questions, I will answer any that can be in a public forum or point you to where you will get the answers.

If you have to ask how can a document be used by others, you have clearly not understood that “lookalikes” (as one way imposters use documents) are a common feature.

The exit check in Treviso is what it is - I don’t have experience of that airport or it’s authoruties of themselves but I have already commented on the effectiveness of Schengen exit checks. The document scan carried out in Exit is a check against SISII and maybe Interpol’s SLTD if anything. As I have already said, we routinely pick up false documents (which is one thing), altered documents (which is another) and fraudulently used documents (which for your benefit would be the use of your valid document by someone else or a valid document obtained by fraudulent means) - if the exit checks were foolproof they should be picked up at the point of embarkation (bar the valid ones obtained fraudulently).

For information, our supervisors and managers get queue times every day and let’s just say having asked about last thursday, the peak queue times reported for EU passengers are just over 10 minutes.

Ok, let me describe myself - Irish, as in I couldn't look more Irish unless I put on a leprechaun hat and danced a jig through arrivals......I'm a pale-skinned, freckly faced ginger with a mop of red hair......I'm guessing there's not too many illegals transiting Italy from North Africa, the Middle East or the Caucasuses that look like me.

So that kind of rules out my card being used by a lookalike wouldn't you say?

Which brings me back to the question of technology......have the cards/passports been forged or compromised?

And was for the peak queue times? Was that for all of Thursday, or just for a few hours? And I'd just point out that Thursday was not the day I arrived back in to Dublin.

What was the peak queuing time for Friday?

EDIT: and how do you measure queue times......direct or inferred measurement.....my guess is inferred measurement, because I've seen anything to suggest any metric like that is measured directly by the DAA.

embraer170

The Veteran wrote: »

I myself entered the Schengen zone a couple of weeks ago and used an eGate. I am very familiar with them having worked on them; to say that the monitoring of the Gates was a joke is to put it mildly. The officer at one point left his desk and went to another desk completely out of line of sight of his screen. Silly! We’d be shot for it.

E-gate systems used in some EU countries are supported by back office monitoring.

The Veteran wrote: »

Also, the majority of false documents detected in dublin are coming off flights from the Schengen zone or at least transfer hubs in Schengen. Spanish, French and Italian airports being very prevalent. Now, if the required checks were done properly on exit we shouldn’t see these or any Interpol hits etc.

And let us forget that Ireland does not even have exit checks.

The Veteran

Embrear - nobody does “back office” Monitoring of live transactions; and the country I was in certainly doesn’t. On exits, no one on our side would be against introducing them, in fact we do them intermittently.

Jawgap - the stereotype you describe are not exclusively Irish; not all Irish meet that the stereotype. In fact the profile you put forward would suggest we should be racially profiling rather than assessing everyone on their merits. The stereotype you describe does not rule out vulnerability to “lookalikes” and we have had them! It does not guard against fraudulently obtained documents nor does it prevent people of that stereotype from being facilitators.

Have Cards or passports which contain biometrics been compromised - yes! The documents have also been used even where the chips have not themselves been compromised.

I’m not in work at the moment so can’t get Friday’s figures so can’t be specific.

The daa has a sophisticated queue measuring system in place, it’s the same one used to measure security queues. It uses WiFi and Bluetooth technology to track passenger movement. Therefore it is a direct measurement (in your terms) of real experience.

Jawgap

The Veteran wrote: »

Jawgap - the stereotype you describe are not exclusively Irish; not all Irish meet that the stereotype. In fact the profile you put forward would suggest we should be racially profiling rather than assessing everyone on their merits. The stereotype you describe does not rule out vulnerability to “lookalikes” and we have had them! It does not guard against fraudulently obtained documents nor does it prevent people of that stereotype from being facilitators.

Have Cards or passports which contain biometrics been compromised - yes! The documents have also been used even where the chips have not themselves been compromised.

I’m not in work at the moment so can’t get Friday’s figures so can’t be specific.

The daa has a sophisticated queue measuring system in place, it’s the same one used to measure security queues. It uses WiFi and Bluetooth technology to track passenger movement. Therefore it is a direct measurement (in your terms) of real experience.

Sorry, but it all sounds a bit convenient......you could get Thursday's figures and post them, but not Friday's? Maybe just post a link to where they are published and I can have a look for myself.

If the card technology has been compromised why have eGates then?

Fair enough about the MLA system - I thought they only used it in the retail and security areas. I didn't realise it was used in the arrivals immigration queue.

The Veteran

Jawgap - believe what you like about my access to figures. The data is not published publicly, but ask the daa for it, it’s theirs and it is not “secret”. It has been r leased in FOInrequests by the Dept of Transport.

The fact that cards\pssports have been compromised at all would suggest, if your logic was followed, they should not be used at all. The Gates have enough checks and balances to ensure that the risk is very low.

The last para of your post is helpful in that you accept there are a lot of things you don’t actually know.

Jawgap

The Veteran wrote: »

Jawgap - believe what you like about my access to figures. The data is not published publicly, but ask the daa for it, it’s theirs and it is not “secret”. It has been r leased in FOInrequests by the Dept of Transport.

The fact that cards\pssports have been compromised at all would suggest, if your logic was followed, they should not be used at all. The Gates have enough checks and balances to ensure that the risk is very low.

The last para of your post is helpful in that you accept there are a lot of things you don’t actually know.

Actually the data is published retrospectively by the CAR under the QoS requirements of that body.

EDIT: correction, just checked the QoS report - it doesn't cover queue times in Immigration - presumably it would be unfair to penalise the DAA for long queues caused by another organisation?

But, I'm confused (unsurprisingly).....you mentioned Thursday's figures....

The Veteran wrote: »

........
For information, our supervisors and managers get queue times every day and let’s just say having asked about last thursday, the peak queue times reported for EU passengers are just over 10 minutes.

But now when I ask for Friday's I get a response telling me to go to the DAA?

Finally, either the technology works or it doesn't - if it works then eGates, or manual scans by a human operator should be sifficient? If it doesn't work, then we should be ditching the eGates and sticking with manual scans and verification by an ICO.

Northern Monkey

Having been in Copenhagen for the weekend I can now say I think the queues in Dublin are fine. It took about 40 minutes to go through passport control on the way back. I had a similar experience when I was there last year so it wasn't just match related.

LiamaDelta

Jawgap wrote:

But, I'm confused (unsurprisingly).....you mentioned Thursday's figures....

Jawgap wrote:

But now when I ask for Friday's I get a response telling me to go to the DAA?

He actually told you he's not in work so couldn't get the figures, and then helpfully pointed you to where you could attempt to access them yourself if you so wished.

circular flexing

Looks like the machines are operating as of today?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/passport-machines-come-into-operation-at-dublin-airport-today-1.3310094

trellheim

Remember - you are not required to use them.

If you are a CTA passenger can you just walk through the e-gates ? Is there a duty INIS member to optionally request identification from those who do or whats the story, an INIS officer can request you identify yourself as a CTA passenger but it is not a requirement for an Irish Citizen to produce before it is demanded.

Has the signage been amended to show properly the documentation you must legally produce depending on your origin or as usual is this stuff glossed over

If I show my driving license and walk through the gate whats the story, do I get a wave-through


And remember folks its not a border for some people going through so passport control is the wrong name

IngazZagni

trellheim wrote: »

Remember - you are not required to use them.

If you are a CTA passenger can you just walk through the e-gates ? Is there a duty INIS member to optionally request identification from those who do or whats the story, an INIS officer can request you identify yourself as a CTA passenger but it is not a requirement for an Irish Citizen to produce before it is demanded.

Has the signage been amended to show properly the documentation you must legally produce depending on your origin or as usual is this stuff glossed over

If I show my driving license and walk through the gate whats the story, do I get a wave-through


And remember folks its not a border for some people going through so passport control is the wrong name

Simple. As elsewhere only those with passports that have the electronic chip would be eligible for the egates. Others will continue to present themselves to INIS personnel as normal where you would need to prove your nationality and which flight you've flown in on.

trellheim

Others will continue to present themselves to INIS personnel as normal where you would need to prove your nationality and which flight you've flown in on.

in fact

It is optional for them to do so .

Simple. As elsewhere only those with passports that have the electronic chip

Welcome to the argument. DAA IS NOT LIKE EVERYWHERE IT IS NOT A SCHENGEN BORDER so there is NO "as elsewhere" .

Its a combined "no border", CTA check, and EU border check and different requirements for doc production apply to all of those passengers

CTA inbounds are the largest source of DAA inbounds

Gatwick for example wisely dont do this level of silly, in fact inbound CTA arrivals you're bussed past the gates. Why is this... because sense broke out.

IngazZagni

Have we not been over this issue countless times? First of all when I say "as elsewhere", I'm referring to the use of the egates. If you don't have a compatible ID then you don't use them.

As I'm sure you're aware the law in the UK and Ireland are different. In the UK the CTA applies to all nationalities but they still can do random document checks and indeed I was requested to prove my identity recently at a uk airport arriving from Ireland. In Ireland the CTA only applies to Irish and UK citizens so the authorities are entitled to confirm the nationality and origin of all CTA passengers.

As to the question of why we don't do this often at ports. Well Dublin Airport has a huge amount of non Irish or British passengers on UK flights unlike the ferry service where this would be quite small.

L1011

We are not having the CTA argument here again

LiamaDelta

trellheim wrote: »

Is there a duty INIS member to optionally request identification from those who do or whats the story, an INIS officer can request you identify yourself as a CTA passenger but it is not a requirement for an Irish Citizen to produce before it is demanded.

If I show my driving license and walk through the gate whats the story, do I get a wave-through

The egate is for use by passport/passport-card holders only. If you are not a passport/passport-card holder, continue to use the booth as normal. As you correctly pointed out you are not obliged to use it.

Edit: apologies I see this was answered earlier!

trellheim

The egate is for use by passport holders only

Wrong; according to this forum its passport card as well, which is an EU identity card and not valid as a passport outside that so therefore not a 'passport' according to the true definition.



Refer to my earlier question.

Is there clear signage showing what documentation is to be produced by those arriving, and from where ?

If a person presents to the gate with a driving license what is to stop them walking straight through or are they airlocks

IngazZagni

trellheim wrote: »

Wrong; according to this forum its passport card as well, which is an EU identity card and not valid as a passport outside that so therefore not a 'passport' according to the true definition.



Refer to my earlier question.

Is there clear signage showing what documentation is to be produced by those arriving, and from where ?

If a person presents to the gate with a driving license what is to stop them walking straight through or are they airlocks

As for signage I can't answer that yet as I haven't been through the airport today but there would be a gate that will open after the computer has scanned your ID and used the facial recognition system. If all is ok the gate will open and you would proceed. If you try to scan a driving license it obviously won't work and the gate won't open. you will have to proceed to a manned booth then.

plodder

trellheim wrote: »

If a person presents to the gate with a driving license what is to stop them walking straight through or are they airlocks

I'd imagine they are like railway ticket barriers, which don't open unless everything is in order, and you'd probably be noticed trying to hop over.

It'll be interesting to see how the facial recognition works in practice. I hope that if the software fails to match automatically, it defers to a human operator, without the passenger noticing, or having to do anything (like going to the manned booth...).

LiamaDelta

trellheim wrote: »

Wrong; according to this forum its passport card as well, which is an EU identity card and not valid as a passport outside that so therefore not a 'passport' according to the true definition.



Refer to my earlier question.

Is there clear signage showing what documentation is to be produced by those arriving, and from where ?

If a person presents to the gate with a driving license what is to stop them walking straight through or are they airlocks

Many thanks for the 'true definition' - I have edited my post.

I'll be using them this weekend so I'll be better able to answer your first question.

Regarding your second question - I would imagine they operate in the same way as they do all over the world where they are installed - there is a physical barrier to prevent you walking through if you so not scan correctly. Similar to the gates that scan your boarding pass in T1.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

trellheim

here are 2 sets of barriers.

The first set open if the document is scanned correctly. You then walk into the gate, the first barriers close behind you.
You are now trapped in between the 2 sets of barriers. At this point your facial features are compared to those on the document.
If you pass that test, the 2nd barrier opens and you exit. If not you remain trapped until an immigration officer comes to deal with you.

Fred I reckon you're missing something there. Only an immigration officer can detain you to check your documents - I don't think a machine can.

Assuming I'm arriving from Dusseldorf to T2 and I hand my passport to the INIS person thats fine he's got the badge and the power to do so ; however a scanning machine locking me in an airlock isnt an Immigration officer or did the law get changed when I was away ?

bittihuduga

what fred means is... the 2nd door does not open if the photo on passport and person in front of camera does not match..
that is when the officer monitoring these machines there can validate and open the gate if all ok..
this is the way it works in the EU airports that i have gone through.

trellheim

what fred means is... the 2nd door does not open if the photo on passport and person in front of camera does not match..
that is when the officer monitoring these machines there can validate and open the gate if all ok..
this is the way it works in the EU airports that i have gone through.

No, I get that, the issue is the machine detaining you and not the officer, only an officer can stop you.

circular flexing

bittihuduga wrote: »

what fred means is... the 2nd door does not open if the photo on passport and person in front of camera does not match..
that is when the officer monitoring these machines there can validate and open the gate if all ok..
this is the way it works in the EU airports that i have gone through.

In LHR T2 it was all automated. I can't recall if there were 2 doors on those machines.

ohnonotgmail

trellheim wrote: »

No, I get that, the issue is the machine detaining you and not the officer, only an officer can stop you.

if your face doesnt match the face on the passport you presented to the machine what do you expect should happen?

plodder

I suppose it would improve throughput if one person is inside getting their photo checked, when the next person is behind scanning their document and you would need two barriers to do that. I don't see the problem with it as it's not really the machine "detaining" you as such. If you're not happy with the procedure, you can always go to the manned booth.

goingnowhere

plodder wrote: »

I suppose it would improve throughput if one person is inside getting their photo checked, when the next person is behind scanning their document and you would need two barriers to do that. I don't see the problem with it as it's not really the machine "detaining" you as such. If you're not happy with the procedure, you can always go to the manned booth.

This is how the German machines work

As soon as someone enters the machine it is possible to present your document in the scanner. Few people do, but it certainly works.

Mebuntu

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Good luck with that for anyone who wears glasses or whose passport picture is years old.

robyntmorton

Mebuntu wrote: »

Good luck with that for anyone who wears glasses or whose passport picture is years old.

Yeah, my pp pic has me wearing glasses, but I have so many pairs it could be lots of fun figuring it out.

Stephen Strange

robyntmorton wrote: »

Yeah, my pp pic has me wearing glasses, but I have so many pairs it could be lots of fun figuring it out.

Yeah, that's not how biometrics work....