The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

The key phrase here is 'opinion' and that is fine, just as all of our posts here are. Yours and mine are very different.

Again - you are trying to muffle the issue. I am not arguing for zero CTA checks, only a consistent implementation across all borders. Random checks does fine everywhere other than airports. This, implemented for CTA , would remove the queues instantly, and allow the CTA to function as it should.

I repeat - for UK & IE citizens on inbound CTA flights, you are not required by law to show ID unless it is demanded.

Please stop telling me what I am trying to do. I am not trying to muffle anything, and I think that you're being a little bit insulting to me by that statement.

I am flagging something that I consider to be an issue around the CTA whether you agree with that or not, which is immigration control over non-EU citizens into our country. That's not muffling anything.

It is politically unacceptable and, let's be honest, practically impossible to have full checks along the ROI/NI border, so you are never going to have a completely consistent approach.

Again, the numbers of non-UK and Irish citizens entering the State through our airports are massive compared to the other locations and ignoring that fact is rather like putting one's head in the sand - and I do believe that they should be checked at the airports - that in my view is why we have the setup that we have.

I don't see how you can differentiate between UK & Irish citizens and those from outside Ireland & the EU at the main point of entry into our country (the airports) without either having full checks or a proper international legal agreement with common visas for the two jurisdictions.

trellheim

There is no intention to insult. I do consider your view fundamentally incorrect.

However, if the powers-that-be felt the same way you do, they're entitled to legislate to mandate document checks ; they have not.

It is within their power to segregate CTA arrivals and check them randomly, thus removing the queues and enabling a consistent, standards-led, and intelligence led border experience

They do not, instead officers ( a limited resource ) seem to me to be targeted at checking a majority of people who do not need checking .

When asked for reasons , or guidelines, or policy why they ignore the spirit of the CTA ( as practised by the UK ) , not a single published document has been provided.

The UK has just lowered their terror alerts from the highest level. Did the CTA on the UK side vanish during the last week ? ( they would have been fully entitled, and indeed justified in doing so, I remember in 1988 being grilled extremely harshly by their coppers due to the IRA bombing campaign then in force , and I could only agree with what the copper was doing )

No It did not.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

There is no intention to insult. I do consider your view fundamentally incorrect.

However, if the powers-that-be felt the same way you do, they're entitled to legislate to mandate document checks ; they have not.

It is within their power to segregate CTA arrivals and check them randomly, thus removing the queues and enabling a consistent, standards-led, and intelligence led border experience

They do not, instead officers ( a limited resource ) seem to me to be targeted at checking a majority of people who do not need checking .

When asked for reasons , or guidelines, or policy why they ignore the spirit of the CTA ( as practised by the UK ) , not a single published document has been provided.

The UK has just lowered their terror alerts from the highest level. Did the CTA on the UK side vanish during the last week ? ( they would have been fully entitled, and indeed justified in doing so, I remember in 1988 being grilled extremely harshly by their coppers due to the IRA bombing campaign then in force , and I could only agree with what the copper was doing )

No It did not.

Well I don't see the practice changing anytime soon to be honest I'm afraid.

But as I said before, perhaps get your local TD to lay down some very specifically worded questions and then submit follow up questions to try and get an answer. A Dail question has got to be phrased in a particular way in order to get the answer that you are looking for, anything too general allows them wriggle room to get out of answering it.

Personally I think you're on a hiding to nothing on trying to get the checks removed.

grogi

In fairness, anyone arriving from UK that is not UK citizen, would have been already properly drilled when entering UK.

LXFlyer

grogi wrote: »

In fairness, anyone arriving from UK that is not UK citizen, would have been already properly drilled when entering UK.

Yes but there are virtually no common visas between the UK & Ireland.

Just because someone is entitled to enter the UK, it does not follow that they are entitled to enter Ireland - they require, in the vast majority of cases, a separate visa.

We have separate immigration rules and visa requirements.

The UK is not mandated to perform immigration checks on our behalf.

Until we have a common visa programme with the UK I cannot see how you could police this without checks at our airports.

ohnonotgmail

I've never seen more than a handful of people get off a flight from the UK and go to the Non-EU queue. they can surely come up with a better system for EU passengers.

Avada

grogi wrote: »

In fairness, anyone arriving from UK that is not UK citizen, would have been already properly drilled when entering UK.

Not really. If they're transiting the UK to get to Ireland, they won't ask them much.

Trellheim, if you want to see why there is immigration on Uk flights, do an FOI on the number of people refused leave to land from UK flights last year.

Fred Swanson

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LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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That check however is still not one that is an official check on immigration to this State - it only covers the UK.

Avada

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Transit passengers to Ireland from the UK are processed by the UKBA before they can access the CTA gates.

I know, but they would not be under the level of scrutiny as someone intending to visit/enter the UK. It would be quite basic.

plodder

I have to say I'm convinced more than ever now, that the "justification" for this setup has arisen after the fact. And the real reason was probably the DAA wanting a more flexible use of gates when T1 started to get very busy. Maybe in the early days most arrivals at the airport were EU or US citizens who would be processed quickly, and that's no longer the case. Given that the CTA effectively doesn't operate at Dublin airport, I suppose it does give a chilling foretaste of what could be coming down the tracks, at the NI border and sea ports, with Brexit.

kc56

Passed through the e-gates at Heathrow T3 yesterday in 2 mins but it took 25mins at T2 Dublin on arriving from Heathrow. More e-gates might help. They had some in T1 but none yet in T2 (same with boarding card scanners).

Wonder what happens in UK after Brexit?

Grandeeod

My third month in a row arriving back in DUB post 10pm. Same story each time. A long wait. Scanners blocked off and forced through a booth only for a jobsworth to ask me where I had come from and where was I heading on to.:eek: If you are timing yourself for an Aircoach or similar, it's totally unpredictable now.

If this continues, I reckon it will make the news during peak summer season.

kc56

I recall arriving from Abu Dhabi last year and literally walking through passport control, pause a minute from my bag and getting to the coach park all within 30mins of touch down. Yesterday, that trip took over an hour for a 1810 arriving Heathrow flight.

trellheim

Trellheim, if you want to see why there is immigration on Uk flights, do an FOI on the number of people refused leave to land from UK flights last year.

No. Any border agency should be able to justify its existence and rationale with publicly agreed policy and procedure. We have two ( GNIB and INIS ) - we do not know if they maintain similar standards or even act according to any standards at all

I am sure there are people watching this debate who can contribute these facts from their own computers without breaking the law.

Educate me ; prove with open facts that

UK Border Force's way of doing things ( semirandom, intelligence-led checks on CTA passengers ) is worse than the way we do it



A larger hall will not help matters in the slightest . E Gates will not help CTA passengers who don t have passports. In fact if you walk past an egate what law are you breaking if you are an Irish citizen on a CTA flight

TheChizler

I wonder what would happen if you were brazen enough to skip the queue, and flash the Irish passport and boarding pass when they stopped you. Legally should they let you walk on at that point?

Fred Swanson

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TheChizler

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Legally they shouldn't, but in practice? Has anyone tried this?

grogi

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Of course they can. Border control can flag one as suspicious and drill accordingly. Instead of spending pointless 30 minutes in queue, one would 6 hours in A/C room.

Blue House Bear

I was under the assumption that the GNIB officers where Garda officers?

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

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Blue House Bear

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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So they could stop you from just walking through and can arrest you on suspicion of committing a crime.

Fred Swanson

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Blue House Bear

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Are you allowed to just walk out without having your passport checked?

I don't actually know, thats why I am asking.

trellheim

Of course they can. Border control can flag one as suspicious and drill accordingly. Instead of spending pointless 30 minutes in queue, one would 6 hours in A/C room.

Of course they can. However, an Irish citizen from CTA merely not showing any documents without being demanded to do so is no crime and can't be considered suspicious - the law is very clear.

JCX BXC

eeguy wrote: »

Because busy times may only be an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. They can't bring in 6 people to work a 2 hour split shift.

Then bring 6 people in to work a 6 hour shift, and have an overlap of 3 hours between the two sets of staff. Plenty of other airports manage to cope, why can't Dublin?

trellheim

Are you allowed to just walk out without having your passport checked?

I don't actually know, thats why I am asking.

If you are coming from UK and ROI AND you are a citizen of the UK or ROI - yes, correct.

The immigration Act 2004 specifically exempts them from the Act; for CTA passengers it is NOT a passport control and is not labelled correctly.
Aer Lingus just require valid photo ID, the only requirement for a passport is actually Ryanair. And even though you came in on a Ryanair flight from the UK and brought a passport, you don't need to show it ; legally you can walk on past unless he stops you.

You must produce a passport when debarking from a flight from all other countries as it is then, correctly, a legal passport control.

if you think this is nuts you are correct, see one of my posts above where an Irish judge calls it utterly looney tunes.

eusap

The reason for the queues increasing over the last few weeks is because passports are not just visually checked and waved on anymore. All passports are now scanned and checked against an Interpol database, this is not going to change. It is here to stay

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-passport-data-checks-at-dublin-airport-to-combat-jihadi-terror-threat-35310776.html

ohnonotgmail

eusap wrote: »

The reason for the queues increasing over the last few weeks is because passports are not just visually checked and waved on anymore. All passports are now scanned and checked against an Interpol database, this is not going to change. It is here to stay

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-passport-data-checks-at-dublin-airport-to-combat-jihadi-terror-threat-35310776.html

i wonder how they are managing that when i havent carried my passport through the airport in nearly a year.

irishgeo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i wonder how they are managing that when i havent carried my passport through the airport in nearly a year.

if you mean a passport card, thats scanned too.

Fred Swanson

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trellheim

The article itself notes that not all documents are scanned

The immigration official said the operation of the system was being monitored in the run-up to Christmas to ensure a balance was struck between maximising the volume of checks and ensuring there was no negative impact on passengers arriving here over the holiday period.

Fine words , pity they don't live by them.

Driving licence or other such CTA approved ID?

NO such thing ; Airlines require this . I don't need a passport or driving license to get the train to Belfast Central.

trellheim

double post sorry.

Fred Swanson

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ohnonotgmail

geo wrote: »

if you mean a passport card, thats scanned too.

nope, driving licence only

Negative_G

Since the Veteran obviously works there, why dont they inform us of what one should expect if they decide they don't want to wait and since they appear to be under no legal obligation to do so either.

quitecranky

Hi Guys,

As a regular user of Dublin Airport, and specifically someone whose return flights seem to be coming back in at this time of the evening when there is a glut of flights to T1, I've wasted hours and hours of my life queuing there in the past few months. This is quite annoying while traveling alone with work, it's even more hard to bear when queuing up for 1+ hour at a time late at night with our crying 2 year old son and my tired and heavily pregnant wife. It's simply baffling to me to see that 1000's of hours of people's time are being wasted here and nothing is being done about it. I’ve seen surprisingly little media coverage of it also, I’d expect it will take until maybe some relevant people are personally inconvenienced by it before this happens.

I get the feeling here from a few posters that there may be a few people here that know what the actual situation is (as there seem to be quite a few things at play) so I was hoping that I could get some insight as to who is responsible for it or who is best to speak to in order to do something about it as opposed to just giving out to my wife/son about it while queuing for hours and not actually doing anything.

My own observations on it:

1 I think the main holdup is that the guys in the booths are now scanning every passport of every passenger. I asked the Immigration guy about it last night and was told from December they now scan all passports. This would seem to tie in with this: See Irish Independent article above (I can't post it as this is a new account) "New passport data checks at Dublin airport to combat jihadi terror threat". From a rough count of people being processes last night I’m seeing, on average, it’s taking about 15+ seconds for each person going through, and this would be for people on an Irish passport. That alone vs previous system of the person in the booth (probably Garda till they were replaced in T1) glancing at passport that would have taken about 3-5 seconds (you’d frequently barely have to stop walking while going through) is probably taking about 4 times longer so if they do that for everyone it’s going to be a massive hold up. It strikes me as completely pointless to be scanning Irish people returning home to Ireland. What is the point of this? I think the above article claim that my picture is being sent to Interpol and real-time checked which is doubtful. And even if it is the case it’s clearly not practical to do this for everyone there if it’s leading to massive delays. On a Sunday evening I’d estimate a majority of people in T1 are Irish (mostly returning home after a trip away, weekend or otherwise). Scanning all of these passports seems a completely unnecessary process and big explanation of the delay.

2. Despite the fact that all the booths are staffed I definitely get the impression the staff in them are intentionally going slow. While watching them (and with the hours in the queue there is not a lot else to do) it’s quite obvious to me that they are intentionally going at a slower pace than they should be. I saw one of them that appeared to be pretending to scan passports and an awful lot of unnecessary pausing, just being very slow. My company has quite a lot of people employed doing fairly basic work like this and it’s quite obvious to me that they are intentionally going slow despite the huge queues and upset people. Now I’m confused as to why this is as I believe these guys are not Gardai, are guys that this work has been contracted to. If they are intentionally going slow it should be easy to get rid of them, get someone else in to do the job properly. It’s also a very simple thing to monitor. If you know it should take 8 seconds to check EU passport and they are taking 20 Tying in with my belief that there is something slightly more sinister going on is the fact I have yet to see the automatic machines being used at any time of day. I saw some mention of this previously, that “there was a dispute over the maintenance contract” or something similar. This to me would suggest some kind of union nonsense or similar which is preventing them from being in place and might tie in with whey the people working there seem to be going slower than they should. I believe there was a history of Garda go slows there in the past so it’s probably not a new concept for them. I’ve asked them about this when I’ve got to the top of the queue and their reactions would suggest that what they are doing is intentional. If this is the case, and I’d be surprised if it’s not, it’s pretty unpleasant stuff. It’s one thing intentionally being slow at your job if the consequences are quite distant from you. It’s another when you have a massive queue of people in front of you that you can see are tired and pissed off and you are intentionally causing/adding to their delay. Like I say I find this bit confusing as short of something simple like these guys trying to get more hours of overtime for working late on Sunday evening etc (which is a realistic possibility) I don’t see what their motivation is to intentionally cause/add to this problem.

Like I say if anyone who has a greater knowledge of what the actual problem is here would like to offer it I’d appreciate it. I suspect it’s probably something quite simple but I find it amazing that DAA, the airlines etc are willing to have it happen or indeed that after months of it being a serious problem, it seems absolutely nothing is happening to stop it.

Fred Swanson

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Avada

@quitecranky I'm not going to quote your post, mainly because it is impossible to read.

Afaik, its an EU agreement that all passports are scanned and checked against the Interpol database. Not optional.

And no, staff are not intentionally going slowly. Believe me, they want rid of you as quick as possible. Queues lead to aggressive passengers and make staffs life difficult. The chips are scanned on every passport, depending on the passport this can take up to 20 seconds. They're not contractors, their civil servants.

Just to note, Gardaí in t2 are scanning passports as well.

Spanish Eyes

Mass class action to DAA and DOJ.

DA is the first port of call for many a visitor, business person, and indeed NATIVES!

On yer bikes now.

You can get the email addresses for DAA and DOJ handy enough. Your TD/councillor should be approached also.

I reckon DAA don't care, and there is some kind of standoff between civilian and Garda Immigration personnel. Disgraceful.

But who really cares anyway? Sure they should be lucky to be able to afford to travel abroad and come back in the first place.

I blame DAA myself. They do not seem to have a welcoming immigration area at ALL. But they will blame INIS or GNIB. Jayzis this is typical Ireland isn't it.

Avada

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I don't know what purpose scanning Irish passports serves. All they can be doing is checking against a list of reported stolen documents.
As for checking with Interpol, I don't buy that at all for one second.

https://www.interpol.int/INTERPOL-expertise/Border-management/SLTD-Database

alchemist33

Avada wrote: »

@quitecranky I'm not going to quote your post, mainly because it is impossible to read.

No it isn't.

Fred Swanson

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Avada

Fred Swanson wrote: »

So what happens if their computers go down and there are several flights to be cleared? Is everyone detained until the issue is fixed?

We'll have to wait and see

Negative_G

Avada wrote: »

.

And no, staff are not intentionally going slowly. Believe me, they want rid of you as quick as possible. Queues lead to aggressive passengers and make staffs life difficult. The chips are scanned on every passport, depending on the passport this can take up to 20 seconds. They're not contractors, their civil servants.

There's the first problem. And probably the root cause of it all, along with incompetent management by the DAA.

This notion that you can't expect people to work certain shifts to ensure that there is an appropriate amount of staff present to process large number of passengers is laughabe.

The same people would probably want to be heavily compensated if their tea room was moved down hall.

As I said already, the whole thing stinks of "union rules, bud". The finger pointing that has gone on already is testament to that. "Not my problem, ask the DAA".

Spanish Eyes

Would DAA employees get a fast track through passport control by ANY chance?

You know, nod and wink, show yer security pass with photo and DAA logo, and there you are, go round the back now. Grand.

Must be, maybe, could be. I doubt the CEO of DAA ever has to queue at passport control. Maybe s/he does, but I fekin doubt it.

So if you do not see the carnage, you will not fix it.

Anyway here they are at DAA. Well fed and not tired from standing in queues either.

http://www.daa.ie/our-company/our-team/

info@daa.ie for the complaint emails. It has to start somewhere. I have sent one off myself just now in a fit of pique. LOL.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

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Spanish Eyes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Good question, I reckon they do, along with oh so important politicians aswell maybe.

You see what I mean if it's true? They never see it so don't know what the big deal is for the great unwashed.